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The Abandonment Of Free Markets By The Right

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posted on Jan, 8 2019 @ 11:13 AM
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a reply to: Dfairlite
I feel sorry for you, thinking people should get money they didn’t earn, and should depend on gambling for retirement. I think people should get money that they earn and shouldn’t get money they don’t earn. Labor shouldn’t be taxed, nor should productive businesses that create something. Big business shouldn’t feel entitled to the majority of the productivity I create. For instance, I get paid about $300 a day. I make my company about $10000 per day. That’s exploitation but here in the us that’s considered fine and dandy. Further, next year I’ll be expected to create $11000 per day for them, while my take home pay will remain the same. And this will continue in that fashion. Some of our productivity used to be set aside for our retirement. Now businesses take all that extra productivity for themselves, and encourage us to put aside yet more of our money to gamble as our hope for retirement. I feel sorry for you that you can’t recognize patterns of decline, and that they’ve tricked you into thinking this is a better system.




posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 03:31 AM
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a reply to: jacobe001



The stock market is a rigged casino game.


This level of ignorance is astounding. Praytell, who is it rigged for? Who is it rigged against? If it were rigged how come the average person needs only to buy and hold to win? How do hedge funds go bankrupt in a rigged system? Also, the stock market isn't the only way to earn capital gains. You can loan your money through sites like lendingtree. You can buy property. You can buy collectibles. All of these are capital gains transactions.



We should do it the old way by saving money.


LMFAO, the old way? Read matthew 25:14-30. Investing is "the old way."



As it is now, savers are getting punished.


No they're not. They're simply being outperformed by people who aren't deathly afraid of risk.



50 years ago, that is how everyone retired or started a business.


No it's not. The median income was less than 10k. The median house price was 39,000. It would take 20 years to save up for a house in that climate (at least). But guess what, people took out loans and paid interest on them *gasp* capital gains.
edit on 9-1-2019 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-1-2019 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 03:43 AM
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a reply to: Puppylove

While I appreciate your response and wish you the best, it is not really an applicable situation. It's an extreme situation. The contention by the author was that *only* the affluent (look up what that means) can afford marriage.

I'll give you this, the laws are written to help the middle class. Not the poor. Not the rich. The middle class is not on social programs, they're paying for them.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 04:25 AM
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a reply to: pexx421

Thank you for illustrating your economic illiteracy.



I feel sorry for you, thinking people should get money they didn’t earn, and should depend on gambling for retirement.


What makes money "earned?" Consider: an investment banker can expect to work 14 hours per day and likely at least 6 days of the week. I was on the path to becoming an investment banker and shadowing a friend was enough to scare me away from that path. You couldn't pay me enough to work that much. And guess what, a lot of their pay is based on results, so if you aren't all that great at it, all that education and work can cost you big time.

More of the gambling myth. It really gets old rebutting this moronic fallacy. Gambling is playing a game of chance. Investing is the purchasing of something with intrinsic worth with the belief that its worth will increase in the future. Buying part of a business (stock) has intrinsic worth. Buying property has intrinsic worth. Buying debt has intrinsic worth. Buying a hand of cards does not. Buying a pull on a slot machine does not. Buying a ticket with numbers on it does not.



Labor shouldn’t be taxed, nor should productive businesses that create something.


Hey we agree on something, labor shouldn't be taxed. Are you aware of businesses that create nothing? Examples?



For instance, I get paid about $300 a day. I make my company about $10000 per day.


Then it sounds like you need to start your own company and make your 10k per day (that's over a million a year). Or is there a lot more to it than you simply creating 10k... it's a rhetorical question.



Some of our productivity used to be set aside for our retirement. Now businesses take all that extra productivity for themselves, and encourage us to put aside yet more of our money to gamble as our hope for retirement.


There are so many things in this to question and correct I'm not sure where to start. I'll just start here, businesses don't view your compensation as compartmentalized. It's a total cost. They used to do pensions or retirements but people opted out of those models for models that offered them better pay over their lifetimes. To illustrate:
Company A is willing to pay you $25/hr and has a retirement plan after 30 years that will pay you half your income.
Company B is willing to pay you $30/hr and has no retirement plan.

Where do you go to work? Well if you're sure that company A will exist and you'll be happy to work there for 30 years, company A might be worth while. But company B you actually get paid your retirement money each year instead of losing all of it if you quit at 18 years (that's a $180k loss, which company A just gets to keep, which company was exploiting you again?).

The cost of hiring you is the same in both models, but in model A the company is hanging onto that extra $5/hr and investing it for you.



I feel sorry for you that you can’t recognize patterns of decline, and that they’ve tricked you into thinking this is a better system.


There isn't a pattern of decline. The fact that you see one where it doesn't exist is an indictment of your worldview, not mine.

Here's a litmus test. What did people have 50 years ago that they don't today? While you ponder that, consider that working has never been easier, in all of human history.
edit on 9-1-2019 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 05:59 AM
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originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: jacobe001



The stock market is a rigged casino game.


This level of ignorance is astounding. Praytell, who is it rigged for? Who is it rigged against? If it were rigged how come the average person needs only to buy and hold to win? How do hedge funds go bankrupt in a rigged system? Also, the stock market isn't the only way to earn capital gains. You can loan your money through sites like lendingtree. You can buy property. You can buy collectibles. All of these are capital gains transactions.



We should do it the old way by saving money.


LMFAO, the old way? Read matthew 25:14-30. Investing is "the old way."



As it is now, savers are getting punished.


No they're not. They're simply being outperformed by people who aren't deathly afraid of risk.



50 years ago, that is how everyone retired or started a business.


No it's not. The median income was less than 10k. The median house price was 39,000. It would take 20 years to save up for a house in that climate (at least). But guess what, people took out loans and paid interest on them *gasp* capital gains.


You contradicted your own post.
You said how is it rigged if all you have to do is hold it and win.

And then said the players deserve more than savers because of risk.
Holding it and winning everytime implies there is no risk.


Every purchase a consumer makes, a portion gets tolen to send to the wall street casino.
Everything is financialized now to punish workers and consumers and reward the middle man parasites on wall street.

Back when our country was mostly full of mom and pops, they did not have stocks on wall street.
The money stayed in the community and went to the worker, owners and helped the local business.

Now it is all being stolen to give to the wall street sharks.
edit on 9-1-2019 by jacobe001 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 06:09 AM
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a reply to: jacobe001



You contradicted your own post.

I most certainly did not. Risk and rigged are not interchangeable words. I said it is not rigged. I said there is risk (if it were rigged there would be no risk). But it was a nice dodge. How about you answer now, who is it rigged for?



Holding it and winning everytime implies there is no risk.

My bad, I forget you "wall street casino" folks are so completely uninformed about how it all works, I don't explain things in as much nuance as you need. If you diversify and hold for a long enough period of time the likelihood of success is extremely high. It is not guaranteed.



Every purchase a consumer makes, a portion gettings stolen to sent to the wall street casino.


Nope. I can buy a stock with zero commissions right now and they get zero of it. The only person who gets any is the seller of the stock.



Back when our country was mostly full of mom and pops, they did not have stocks on wall street.


I think you need to do a little research on market participation rates throughout american history.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 06:16 AM
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If you put your money in the stock market across varios stocks and are ahead in 20 years as is most likely the case, it shows there is zero risk.

If you put your money in a savings account your risk is greater because it is almost 100 % certain it will be worth less in 20 years.

That is punishing savers and rewarding the people in the stock market with free money that did not work for it.

The richest people in this country got their wealth from the stock market, not from working a job like most do.

We had free market capitalism moreso in the 50s than we do today.
Majority did not have stocks on wall street.

Both parties cater to them.
Hillary Clinton gave many speeches to them and she was showered with money in return.

whorulesamerica.ucsc.edu...



Wealth and Power in America

The Class-Domination Theory of Power
As argued in Who Rules America?, the owners and top executives of the largest corporations, banks, investment firms, and agri-businesses come together as a corporate community. Their enormous economic resources give them the "structural economic power" that is the basis for dominating the federal government through lobbying, campaign finance, appointments to key government positions, and a policy-planning network made up of foundations, think tanks, and policy-discussion groups. The CEOs and owners in the corporate community, along with the top executives at the foundations, think tanks, and policy-discussion groups, work together as a leadership group that I call the power elite. However, they do fight among themselves sometimes, leading to moderate-conservative and ultra-conservative factions in the power elite. This class-domination theory developed out of Power Structure Research, going back to the 1950s.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 06:24 AM
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The bottom line is, if your serious about free market capitalism, then we need to agree to throw the corporate and banking lobbyists out of DC.


We already know what they want.
They want cheaper labor, more outsourcing, government contracts and subsidies so they can make bank for themselves and the theives on wall street.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 06:58 AM
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a reply to: jacobe001



If you put your money in the stock market across varios stocks and are ahead in 20 years as is most likely the case, it shows there is zero risk.


So how is it a casino???



If you put your money in a savings account your risk is greater because it is almost 100 % certain it will be worth less in 20 years.


We don't have negative interest rates? Time value will make this true in a certain sense... but it's tied to lending rates and depends on inflation.



The richest people in this country got their wealth from the stock market, not from working a job like most do.


What is the stock market?



We had free market capitalism moreso in the 50s than we do today.


Ok?



Majority did not have stocks on wall street.


The majority still don't have stocks on wall street. Maybe 1/3. Was 20% during the 90's frenzy.



Wealth and Power in America


Yes, this is not a phenomenon unique to the US nor human history. In fact it is the norm. It's the golden rule



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 09:44 AM
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a reply to: Dfairlite
I’ll tell you who it’s rigged for. When a company wants to go public they go to Goldman Sachs or another group to front it. Then whichever group they went to gets first rights to purchase the stocks, so they buy a bunch up. The average offer doubles on the first day due to them and the others buying the new juicy stock.... then Goldman or whoever was the front company for the offer sells off all the stocks at a massive gain. They just made a huge profit doing nothing. And it’s not in a vacuum. Money wasn’t created. They just took that money from all the other people buying that stock after them, as when they sell it all it normally goes back down to it’s realistic price. That’s how it’s all a rigged game.

As to what is unearned wealth? It’s wealth earned without creating a product. It’s extractive meaning it takes money out of the economy. So, when rent is increased as it usually is, the apartment complex didn’t do anything to earn that money. It just takes more from the people renting. This reduces the money they have to buy things. When you miss a payment on a credit card and your interest goes up to 29%. That’s not creating a product, it’s just charging you more. If you have low credit a bank charges you more money in interest when purchasing a home. They are not creating a product, they’re just scalping you. And it’s not about risk, as that money is guaranteed by the federal govt on all home loans under 500k. Banks aren’t loaning you their money. They literally create credit on their keyboard which is then leveraged by the federal reserve.

edit on 9-1-2019 by pexx421 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-1-2019 by pexx421 because: (no reason given)

edit on 9-1-2019 by pexx421 because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 09:57 AM
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I’ll tell you what, me dfairlite. According to my economic understanding the market and us economy will have a massive crash, likely next year. What do you think?



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 10:12 AM
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And I’m not sure what your feeling was in 06-07 but I was predicting a market crash then too, while everyone else was raving about how strong the market was.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 11:02 AM
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a reply to: Dfairlite I think the problem is you don’t understand positive economics and negative economics. So economics is the production of value adding items and purchasing of those items, creating a circular flow. Positive economics is largely that, creating products at a reasonable cost and selling them for a reasonable price. One group makes a reasonable profit based off supply and demand, the other group gets a reasonably priced product or required service. Negative economics is things extraction based. Things like high interest, capital gains, monopolized services Or products, increased rents that largely take fluidity out of the economy. Since 08 all our “economic growth has been in the financial sector, extracting fluidity from the economy. This leaves less money for positive economy, people are less able to buy products. If you take away financial growth from the gdp, that’s interest, privatized services, real estate, the fire sector, our economy has actually been contracting. And hat is not the presentation of an economy doing well or growing.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 11:36 AM
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originally posted by: pexx421
And I’m not sure what your feeling was in 06-07 but I was predicting a market crash then too, while everyone else was raving about how strong the market was.


Oh yeah.

Deflation is coming. Pressure from inflation and low wage growth has crushed the consumer market.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 11:51 AM
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a reply to: toysforadults and the growing debt causing debt deflation. As people have more debt, higher interest payments, it leaves less money for things that actually run the economy like buying products, goods, and services. But hey! Everyone thinks the economy is doing great!



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 01:33 PM
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originally posted by: pexx421
a reply to: toysforadults and the growing debt causing debt deflation. As people have more debt, higher interest payments, it leaves less money for things that actually run the economy like buying products, goods, and services. But hey! Everyone thinks the economy is doing great!



Yeah I know I've been doing a series of threads on this topic for the last 6 months.

The obvious consensus I can see here on ATS that is if Trump is president even thougg he did nothing the economy is great!

Rude awakening coming soon

This is why Samsung and Apple collectively lost tens of billions of dollars last year.
edit on 9-1-2019 by toysforadults because: (no reason given)



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 03:31 PM
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a reply to: toysforadults
I dealt with the same thing in 06-07. Telling people the bust was coming due to MBS and subprime and everyone laughing saying how the economy had never been stronger. And they act like we’re ignorant idiots. It’s humbling and frustrating sometimes.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 04:26 PM
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a reply to: toysforadults


The underlying failures in the economy were not addressed in the GFC, the can just got kicked down the road a bit further, they are doing the same now, because if they do anything else this slow collapse will speed up. Either way I am just looking at the price of PM's they are going up with demand which tells the real state of the economy. The blame game will be interesting.



posted on Jan, 9 2019 @ 07:57 PM
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a reply to: pexx421


As to what is unearned wealth? It’s wealth earned without creating a product.

By that definition, anyone employed is paid in unearned wealth. Employees do not make products; companies do. Employees provide services that allow their companies to provide products or services.

That also means we have to outlaw house cleaners, lawyers, doctors, taxi drivers, truck drivers, repairmen, waiters, and a whole host of others who make a living by providing services.

If, however, you misspoke and intended to say "without creating a product or service, then you have just verified every corporation that has ever existed. All of them offer a product or service. Banks offer a service that allows someone to make purchases or investments and pay for the privilege at the back end rather than having to save up for it (and likely only achieve anything of substance in their lives when they are too old to enjoy it). Stock traders provide a service that makes investment in stocks easier for those who do not have unlimited time to research the stock market... you know, people who have other jobs. Lawyers provide a service that keeps people form being sued for trivial details. These are all services that would not exist if there were not a market for them.

TheRedneck



posted on Jan, 10 2019 @ 01:40 PM
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a reply to: Dfairlite

You know what is awesome, our state basically just shut these type of loan sharks down. There was a public initiative put on the ballot to cap the interest rates from 300-400% to 30%. The public voted on the first try that yes, as viewed from society on whole, this is a criminal enterprise and the top interest rate for pay day loans / quick loans were capped at 30%.

The owner of said businesses came back within 9 months and found a loop hole. He remained open for another 3 weeks and the state said ENOUGH. They revoked all of his business license within the state. He is no longer our problem and can take his millions, maybe even billions to another state and burden their population.

I was kind of proud of our legislature.
edit on 10-1-2019 by ClovenSky because: load=loan







 
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