Originally posted by ServoHahn
I want to go to the streets and cry that it's not fair that George W. Bush is the president and not me. It's not fair that he's a Mason and I am not. It's not fair that he knows secrets and truths that I've yearned for all of my life. It's not fair that he, like so many, inherited a fortune that he did not earn. And it's not fair that Masons gave him advantages that they haven't offered to me.

Servo, Bush is not anything close to a mason. He has no affiliations with our fraternity. So don't be jealous. If you want to be a mason so badly, why dont you join?

I know the Masons have many legitimate community outreach programs but the pessimist inside me tells me that those programs are for just for good show and only with a small amount of the money that could actually go into them.

CHARITY is one of the biggest parts of the fraternity. Believe me, it's not for show. One of the things masons pride themselves on is donating money anonymously. You'd be surprised as to how much money has been given to charities by masons without so much as a return address.

Wealthy people don't stay wealthy by giving away more than they can afford and I don't know many wealthy people who’ve offered to give up their luxurious lifestyles to benefit the least of us in our society.

Masonry is a non-profit organization and, as such, our money is not for personal wealth. It is to promote masonry's ideals, the greates of which is charity.

I wish we made our paper from hemp. It's strong and it's cheap and it doesn't require decimating our rainforests. I know a couple of important Masons who printed some important American documents on hemp paper.

if you wanna be a mason, you cant smoke pot bro. Nothing that goes against the law, im afraid.

I don't know. But I believe that Masons are responsible for keeping the gap between classes (not only in America) wide and unclosable.

How is that possible when all kinds of people are masons? in my lodge alone we have a plumber, businessmen, a navy seal, and many software engineers. I'm glad you admit that you don't know.

I'm extraordinarily impressed with the fraternity, but I fear that some of the upper degree brothers may use their positions to a morally and philosophically objectionable end. Am I wrong? I don't know any Masons personally. Masons, please email me and correct anything that you believe to be wrong in the above post.

You are wrong. Masonry does not give someone priviledges or power like you think. It gives them brotherhood (which is a power in itself, and can be abused, admittedly) and morals, and the tools to conquer life and become a pillar in the community.

You have many misconceptions about Freemasonry. Stop reading conspiracy theories and start looking at CREDIBLE sources. Believe me, masons do not collectively lie about these things.

Leveller and the rest,
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to sound like a conspiracy theorist or even an anti-mason. I mean only to acknowledge the sheer number of Senators, Congressmen, Supreme Court Justices, Presidents, Vice Presidents, and even astronauts that have been Masons. John Glenn got to be the first American and the oldest American in space. I mean to point out that the advantages of being a Mason really put them over the rest of the country. I'm also willing to bet that more wealthy and more powerful apprentices tend to climb the Mason latter faster than your average Marine. The amount of sway in American politics that Masons have seems to be too much for one organization to have, doesn't it? If it's anything like other fraternities and secret societies that I've read about, they'll support one another over other non-members and do "favors" for each other and follow a chain of command... more than the number of our presidents that have been Masons, I'm more stressed about number of Supreme Court Justices that have been Masons. It's popular to disagree with and criticize the President, but it appears that Justices speak for God in our society. I've always believed that the President has too much power for one man, and that the Supreme Court Justices have too much power for a handful of old conservatives. More to the point, I don't like the thought that of others pulling the strings to their own ends (though I have to admit, I'd probably believe others to be pulling the strings to their own ends anyway *cough cough* Cheney! *cough*. Why were so many influential Americans Masons?
-T"S"H
P.S. What about the dollar thing? Anyone?

[edit on 8-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

[edit on 8-3-2005 by ServoHahn]

Originally posted by ServoHahn

*snip*

I'm also willing to bet that more wealthy and more powerful apprentices tend to climb the Mason latter faster than your average Marine.

That my friend is a bet that you would undoubtedly lose. Except for the *very* isolated circumstance (as was previously cited in this thread), all Masons follow the same path.

That being said, different jurisdictions have different time tables. Some set limits on how fast one might ascend through the degrees, while others offer one day classes. Not saying one is right and one is wrong. Just saying that it doesn't matter on your "status".

*snip*

I've always believed that the President has too much power for one man, and that the Supreme Court Justices have too much power for a handful of old conservatives.

Altho most Justices were appointed by conservative Presidents, it would be hard pressed to say that they are conservatives....Just look at some of the rulings handed down on prayer in schools, the displaying of the 10 commandments in gov't offices and the list goes on....

*snip*

Why were so many influential Americans Masons?

Why were there just as many if not more *non* Masons influential?

If you answer my question, you'll answer yours

Well, I asked myself the same question just before I saw that you asked it of me. Please don't be so defensive. Many important figures in American history have been protestants, for instance. But there's soooooo many of those worldwide. Protestants like the Lutherans and Presbyterians. Catholics too. White people too... and black people. A lot of categories. But most people within these categories aren't really tied together in some grand way. Kerry and Bush got downright dirty near the end of their campaigns. What I'm assuming, and now I realize that you're trying to tell me that it's not true, that Masons do not do each other favors. Call friends of friends to get things done. You know... have a structured organization in which people have common goals and some kind of a chain of command... like a fraternity or a secret society. But, if that's not true... if Masonic government officials do indeed fight against each other and do not offer each other advantages because of their brotherhood, then I sincerely apologize for EVERYTHING I've said in this thread. I was under the impression that Masons backed each other up for common goals. But, if these highly influential Masons are just brothers as a coincidence then I, along with most other non-masons in the country have an incredibly backward view of the organization. I suppose we would if the Masons are indeed a "secret society" that know things that the majority of us don't know, but if there are no Masonic secrets, then the brotherhood has been mislabeled as one. And I do apologize. I have no idea, apparently, of what the freemasons are, and good, credible writers of history and politics apparently know nothing of the order either. I’ve been recently interested in getting in touch with some Masons to discuss it simply because I’m curious. I would encourage a Grand Master to get a renowned writer (and there should be a Mason writer that most people know) to write a comprehensive book on the subject. Because we, non-Masons believe that Masons have secrets... things to hide... and we're suspicious. Secrets will do that.

P.S.
What about the dollar thing? (I should turn this into my signature)

Originally posted by ServoHahn
John Glenn got to be the first American and the oldest American in space. I mean to point out that the advantages of being a Mason really put them over the rest of the country. I'm also willing to bet that more wealthy and more powerful apprentices tend to climb the Mason latter faster than your average Marine.

John Glenn got to be the oldest astronaut for two reasons.
One, he was vastly experienced. Two, NASA had never put anyone his age in space and wanted to study how someone his age would react. It wasn't anything to do with Freemasonry.
As for Freemasons climbing the ladder faster than anyone else? If a Mason is found to be using Freemasonry to futher his career or his finances, he will be demitted from the Order.

Originally posted by ServoHahn
Well, I asked myself the same question just before I saw that you asked it of me. Please don't be so defensive.

Sorry, I didn't mean to sound so defensive. All I was trying to point out was that people weren't influential because of the groups that they are a part of, but because of their actions.

What is the significance of being a mason? It's no religion and so obscure in their workings. Why do the guy want to join if he knows jack about it? What do masons what do you get from it?

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by ServoHahn
John Glenn got to be the first American and the oldest American in space. I mean to point out that the advantages of being a Mason really put them over the rest of the country. I'm also willing to bet that more wealthy and more powerful apprentices tend to climb the Mason latter faster than your average Marine.

John Glenn got to be the oldest astronaut for two reasons.
One, he was vastly experienced. Two, NASA had never put anyone his age in space and wanted to study how someone his age would react. It wasn't anything to do with Freemasonry.
As for Freemasons climbing the ladder faster than anyone else? If a Mason is found to be using Freemasonry to futher his career or his finances, he will be demitted from the Order.

Originally posted by Leveller

Originally posted by ServoHahn
John Glenn got to be the first American and the oldest American in space. I mean to point out that the advantages of being a Mason really put them over the rest of the country. I'm also willing to bet that more wealthy and more powerful apprentices tend to climb the Mason latter faster than your average Marine.

True, he was vastly experienced because he was the first American astronaut to go as far as he did and it was just a coincidence that he belonged to the Order. And Edward "Buzz" Aldrin was a coincidence too... and Kenneth S. Kleinknecht, manager for Command and Service Modules in the Apollo space program was also just a very gifted person who happened to be a Mason, and Edgar D. Mitchell, US Astronaut who flew on the Apollo 14 mission was indeed a gifted pilot who happened to be a Mason, and Walter M. Schirra, who was made a "Mason at Sight" by the Grand Master of Masons of Florida, and carried several Masonic items with him on his Apollo 7 flight and was the command pilot on the history-making Gemini 6 flight which made a rendezvous with the already orbiting Gemini 7 spacecraft, the first rendezvous of two manned, maneuverable spacecraft (pretty historic in space travel terms, I think... I'm a nerd for that kind of thing) just sounded like a fun nice thing to do. On one thing I don't know is when Mason James A. Webb became a NASA Administrator? Maybe someone furious over my last few posts can answer that one for me. I haven't been able to find the date...
-SH!
P.S..... What about my dollar.... I haven't spent it yet.
P.P.S. "As for Freemasons climbing the ladder faster than anyone else? If a Mason is found to be using Freemasonry to futher his career or his finances, he will be demitted from the Order." I was talking of the opposite. Wealthy and powerful people who join the order who happen to make up through the Masonic ranks faster due to their already high social stature... not using Masonry as a way to gain wealth or power. I don't consider Masons and group of crooks, villians and theives... like I said, I don't know any Masons and no one has come up to me and said "Hey, I'm a Mason. I do this kind of thing for my Order. Here's my lodge number and location. We have a barbeque once a month and we talk about how to screw other people over just for the heck of it."

Why were all of the astronauts on one Apollo flight all from the University of Michigan? I'm crying foul. Its a conspiracy and cover up I tell ya. WolverineGate!!! It was all Bo Schembechler's doing just to irritate Woody!!!

Originally posted by ServoHahn
I was talking of the opposite. Wealthy and powerful people who join the order who happen to make up through the Masonic ranks faster due to their already high social stature... not using Masonry as a way to gain wealth or power.

That doesn't happen. Money will not buy Masonic "rank".
Firstly there really isn't a ranking system, so this would be pointless anyway.
Secondly, although we do have officers of the Lodge, these positions are filled on a time basis. As you attend, you progress through the offices. People don't jump over other people because of money.

Looks like I stirred up the pot, so to speak.

I find it hard to believe that so many people think there is some sinister plot or plan around every corner. There are so many other credible and real conspiracies and screw-ups happening out in the world, why pick on Masons. These men do many good things in their communities and are, from my experience, men of good moral fiber and respected in their communities.

What a terrible crime or conspiracy it is to want to associate with like-minded individuals, and it obviously must be wrong to associate "Freely" with your peers and fellow citizens who want to educate and improve themselves. Also, I know that this is an alien concept in our current age and culture, but serving others is the way to improve and serve yourself and your God. It is a great injustice not to serve your fellow men, if you yourself have benefitted greatly from living life. I have benefitted greatly from living life and I fortunately find myself at a place in my life where it is time to step up and offer a hand to others and also, hopefully, to learn from and benefit "spritually", from associating with such a highly respected group of men as the Masons.

If others choose to associate conspiracies and kabals to groups of men who seek to associate and support each other in their common beliefs, so be it, I won't try to convince you to change your mind.
Everyone is entitled to their own opinion,even if they are wrong. This one of the glorious benefits to living in a free society. 'Believe' what you wish, or 'Think' your way to a solution to your questions. Prayer and meditation also don't hurt when considering the path before you. It's not my position to sway or convince you one way or the other on any subject. My position is to inform and educate myself, only. If others benefit from my experience or knowledge and associating with me and I from them,So Be It.

Regardless of some unfortunate incidents during the 1800's, which I believe involved a handful of misguided souls who happened to also be members of the Masons, I think,(not believe), that most people associated with the Masons can be shown to be pretty upright and decent human beings. My experience in the world has shown me that there are many more nefarious and conspiratorial groups that a person could be associated with.

This is a path that I have choosen after much investigation and deliberation. It will be a beneficial decision if I learn only a little. I have travelled many less worthy paths in my past, and associated with many less respectable and worthy human beings also. This has not been a hasty decision or a passing whim.

Then why the secrecy? I'm sorry, I've made a serious error. There’s another organization trying to exert a level of control over the government as a unified institute. The Mormons seem to have real influence in Utah state government. Let me liken the Mormons to the way I feel about the Masons. THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH A FRATERNITY... or organization of like-minded people. My problem is, and this is not only in Masonry, that when a few like minded people are a minority having power over the majority. Say, for instance I'm rich and powerful and I own an oil company. I see another man owning an oil company and I don't want to compete with him. So I'll say "hey, let's merge our oil companies and live in oil company harmony and squash out all of the smaller oil companies by offering our consumers deals that the smaller companies can't afford to offer. Won't that be grand? Then, after we have no competitors, we'll drive up prices and make billions. Years later we'll use the money we've earned to run a strong campaign for president. If one of us makes it to the Oval Office, he'll use his power to put policies in place that'll make the oil industry even stronger. Plus he'll insist that we don't need free, renewable power sources... oil is just fine (and we should drill in Alaska). Then we can spend 200 billion dollars of the taxpayers money to protect the oil. It's like they're paying double for something that's worth less than one third of the price they paid initially! Perfect!"
Ok, so the war in Iraq wasn't the fault of a Mason and Masons don't run the government. But aren't like-minded government officials likely to work towards a common goal? Doesn't this give less representation to the goals of the rest of us? Can you buy liquor on Sunday in Salt Lake City?
-T
P.S. I'm spending my friggin dollar.
P.P.S. Not that it's relevant really, you all should read Under the Banner of Heaven by John Krakaur. It's very interesting.

The secrecy part of Masonry you would have to ask a Mason about, I'm not a Mason.
But you mentioned a small but powerful minority that has control of the majority. You wouldn't be talking about the Democratic Minority in the Senate, or the some of the federal courts that have gone rogue and ussurped the people's and the executive and legislative branch's authority would you?

I am a daughter of a Mason and the secrecy is not in what the Masonic Family does it is that of when we are holding meeting to discuss how and what cherities we are going to be apart of take place. I am involved in the Order of Eastern Star and was a Job's Daughter and am now an adult advisor for them and what we do in our meeting is discuss business issues just like a corperation has board meetings. Why are board meetings secretive? Why do you not know what is happening in the board room of a Bill Gates meeting? That is because Bill Gates is doing things to help others and does not have to tell anyone why he donated money to one philanthropic project and not another. Well Masons and the Masonic Family is the reason that I have the confidence to be a 911 dispatcher and the confidence to speak in public. Does a person still get butterflies in your stomach? of course but you take a deep breath a get it done with flying colors. I know that the California Job's Daughters in 2003 raised 14 thousand dollars for the United Marine Corps Toys for Tots Program and these are the Daughters and Granddaughters of Masons.

I know heaps of Freemasons and meet new ones all the time even here in Thailand (normally at the Myanmar border each month.)
Funny thing though is NONE of them will admit it, hell you could walk into a room full of them in full regailia playing "Pin the tail on the goat" and they still stand there denying it.
They get all agitated when you bring the subject, most of them don't want to answer the simple question "Are you a Freemason?"
Normal responses are to answer with a question or pretend not to understand the question and after a few minutes of worridly looking around the room for an exit they normally refuse to talk to you and just clam up.
Imagine getting the same response if you asked someone if they were in "The Lions Club?"
I think not.

[edit on 11-3-2005 by MrNECROS]

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I know heaps of Freemasons and meet new ones all the time even here in Thailand
Funny thing though is NONE of them will admit it,

Would that have anything to do with all the conspiracy theories and accusations made about them.

Hell if I thought I would get a hail of abuse from someone about my affiliations I'd think twice about admitting it also.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I know heaps of Freemasons and meet new ones all the time even here in Thailand (normally at the Myanmar border each month.)
Funny thing though is NONE of them will admit it, hell you could walk into a room full of them in full regailia playing "Pin the tail on the goat" and they still stand there denying it.
They get all agitated when you bring the subject, most of them don't want to answer the simple question "Are you a Freemason?"
Normal responses are to answer with a question or pretend not to understand the question and after a few minutes of worridly looking around the room for an exit they normally refuse to talk to you and just clam up.
Imagine getting the same response if you asked someone if they were in "The Lions Club?"
I think not.

Makes you wonder why that does not happen here, does it not ?

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I know heaps of Freemasons and meet new ones all the time even here in Thailand (normally at the Myanmar border each month.)
Funny thing though is NONE of them will admit it, hell you could walk into a room full of them in full regailia playing "Pin the tail on the goat" and they still stand there denying it.
They get all agitated when you bring the subject, most of them don't want to answer the simple question "Are you a Freemason?"
Normal responses are to answer with a question or pretend not to understand the question and after a few minutes of worridly looking around the room for an exit they normally refuse to talk to you and just clam up.

I think you're lying.

Originally posted by MrNECROS
I know heaps of Freemasons and meet new ones all the time even here in Thailand (normally at the Myanmar border each month.)

Hmm, your location say UK but you say you're in Thailand? I can only assume that you work in Thailand. Must be a helluva commute. Take the 8:30 subway?

Thailand - Take the M24 to junction 19 and then turn off, drive for 13 days and your there. Parking is rubbish.