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Do You Disagree With Mr. President ?

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posted on Jan, 2 2019 @ 06:07 AM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: network dude




Why was Obama and Bill Clinton wrong for wanting more border security?

I never said they were wrong.


Then why is Trump wrong now? Is it his orange hue?




posted on Jan, 2 2019 @ 08:28 AM
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originally posted by: chr0naut

The US has done so and continues to do so.

According to you, or your government? Has New Zealand told Apple and other to leave, and Apple just says, "Hmmmm...nah, we're good...and by the way, we refuse to pay any taxes, too?"

I find that highly doubtful.

[quoteNo, it is because the US companies are not abiding by the law or honoring the sovereignty of the other governments.

You can't excuse an opportunistic thief by saying that the locks weren't good enough or suggesting that the victims may somehow have been gullible. Theft is theft. Apple and other US companies know our rules and despite that, continue to act fraudulently.
So, what you're implying/stating is that Apple is there illegally and also illegally refusing to pay taxes?

Again, I find that highly doubtful.

But I'll repeat, if that is the case, and you're government hasn't taken steps to force them out or charge them with tax violations, then blame your government for not doing what it should be doing in regards to enforcing its laws as a sovereign nation.


Our government didn't make any special deal with the company at all.

Apple merely discovered a loophole in taxation agreements between Australia and New Zealand.

They stole by means of tax avoidance.

That's not stealing if it's a loophole--that means that it's a way to legally avoid something because of poorly written legislation. Again, this sounds like an issue where you need to bring this up to your government, not just bitch about it on ATS.


Ask yourself how do individuals bringing their 'operations' into your country 'steal jobs and money'? A large company is a corporatization of individual actions. As such, it does the same thing, but at scale. I'm sure you can see the rationale.

I see the lack of rationale as it pertains to my question that I asked you that you so slyly avoided answering--and the lacking logic, as well.


The tax dollars, within a country's economy, are the property of the government and people of that country. Apple is being operated outside of New Zealand. The profits that they made do not stay within New Zealand. Taxation is a normal cost of business.

Once collected, the tax dollars are the property of that nation. If they don't collect said taxes because they cannot properly legislate tax laws, and then companies exploit said tax laws, then the money is not the government's.

I'm sure you can see the rationale behind that reality.


Tax avoidance is as illegal in New Zealand as it is in the US.

Your excuse is vapid and doesn't stand up in the US or NZ.

Well, considering that I work in the Criminal Investigation of THE agency tasked with tax collection in the United States, I'll disagree with you on that, because as I've already noted, finding loopholes and exploiting them is not illegal--it's a reflection on poorly written laws (or purposefully scripted loopholes...). Individuals and companies exploit loopholes in the United States all of the time and get away with it--because it's NOT illegal to do so.


So, to make your claim reflect reality, you would have to say, "Failing to pay taxes is as illegal in New Zealand as it is in the US, but exploiting loopholes is not." To you, there may be no difference, but to the law and to tax attorneys, there's a major difference, because one is indictable and the other is not.


Yes.

They also employ local workers, who no doubt paid their personal income tax with no idea of the company's malfeasance.

You can't reply with "yes" to a question as to whether they ONLY bring over and employ American workers, and then follow that up talking about how they employ local workers.


Nope, there are similarities.

Especially in that someone is trying to avoid taxation and other legally mandated charges, and, similarly, the employers in both cases are the ones who profit the most and bear the least penalty for the infraction.

Except, entering the US without following plainly spelled-out legal protocol is a crime, whereas exploiting tax loopholes is not.

Look, here's what you should do: Contact your legislators and tell them that you're fed up with the poorly written tax code because it allows evil companies like Apple (your opinion) to exploit tax laws and get away with not paying what they should.

That's the only way that you can fix that problem, but if it's been going on for a long time, something tells me that it's a "broken" system that they don't way to "fix."

In any event, I appreciate the dialogue, but I'm moving on to bigger and better discussions, unless you reply with something I find more interesting than what has already been said.

Best regards.



posted on Jan, 2 2019 @ 08:36 AM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: SlapMonkey


Why not just use 1.6 billion dollars on border security?

Because that's apparently not enough to make appropriate progress in efficient border security.

Why not compromise a little on both sides and meet somewhere in the middle?

I've lived in SoCal for half of my life, although not recently, but I know second hand from family and friends living in San Diego that there absolutely needs to be an increase in border security, and a physical barrier in strategic locations would be a very good step.

See, the Dems have been doing what the POTUS is doing--they're being hard asses hoping that the other blinks first. Trump shouldn't have waited until a transition into a new congress to get this done, so that falls on him, but the newly emboldened Dems really should not use this topic as their first show of force, because (a) it is inconsistent with what many of them have said in the fairly recent past, and (b) it's holding a segment of citizens financially hostage while they undergo this pissing match.

There needs to be compromise on both sides, but with your approach, one could ask, "Why not just give him the additional $5-billion for border security?"

That's not an intelligent answer/approach, now is it?



posted on Jan, 2 2019 @ 07:18 PM
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a reply to: network dude

He's only wrong about a 2000 mile long wall being effective and cost efficient. IMO.

He is not wrong that we need border security.

The dems agree that we need border security.

That's why the repubs , dems , and potus all agreed originally on a 1.3 billion dollar border security funding bill.



posted on Jan, 2 2019 @ 07:22 PM
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a reply to: SlapMonkey




and a physical barrier in strategic locations would be a very good step.

That is what the 1.6b was for.




"Why not just give him the additional $5-billion for border security?"

Why not? And while we are at it why not give another 5 billion to universal healthcare? And another 5 for infrastructure. Another 5 for work in renewable energy.

I don't think any of that is less important than border security so why don't we fund it all?



posted on Jan, 3 2019 @ 09:39 AM
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originally posted by: scraedtosleep
a reply to: SlapMonkey


That is what the 1.6b was for.

No, it isn't--that is for the normal operating costs. It was specifically noted that the $1.6-billion did not include funding for the wall.




Why not? And while we are at it why not give another 5 billion to universal healthcare? And another 5 for infrastructure. Another 5 for work in renewable energy.

I don't think any of that is less important than border security so why don't we fund it all?

First, I'll quote what I said in the comment to which you replied: "That's not an intelligent answer/approach, now is it?"

But a better answer is because one thing (security of the nation) is an enumerated fiscal responsibility of the federal government, and the others are not. That kind of matters to those of us who prefer our government be limited in scope and only want constitutionally mandated functions to be funded with federal tax dollars.

Unless, of course, you can show me where universal healthcare, infrastructure, and renewable energy are all enumerated in the constitution.

I'll wait.

(and for the record, I don't want >$5-billion tax dollars spent on a wall--I think that we could get accomplished what is needed in the strategic locations for cheaper than that)



posted on Jan, 11 2019 @ 09:26 PM
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originally posted by: oloufo
a reply to: Blue_Jay33

its against the law to enter a border illegally.
i would say most of us would agree.
but there is too much fear and paranoia. the weak against the weakest. kind of sad. most of these 'illegals' are just people, no monsters.


First of all tell that to the families of the children that have been raped, the people including women that have been murdered by illegal aliens. Statistics show that illegal aliens are far more likely to commit violent crimes than citizens.

Yeah and all the other poor, oppressed, war-torn, suppressed etc. people of this world are just people too. They are all human. Lets let them all in. Why discriminate against the ones that cant get here just because they are over seas and or just too far away? Why don't we provide transportation for those that can't just walk here? Lets let in all of the billions that would love to be here right? Serious questions.

It's sad so many people like you cannot see the forest for the trees.

Many of these illegals come from countries that have been countries longer than the United States. Ask yourself, why is it that the United States is doing better? Why is it that they need to come here to have a better life? Why can't they make it better in their own country?

The people of the United States bled for the ending of slavery, bled for civil rights, bled for our constitution, bled for workers rights, bled for a free Republic, fought to end and keep out corruption in the government fought for labor unions, fought the war on drugs and gangs and violence and crime and we continue our fights and our struggles.

Those people need to learn how to fight to make it better in their own country, like we do. The United States cannot just be some sort of destination for the violent, corrupt, lazy, chaotic , uneducated, unorganized, breeding grounds of people that they call countries.

Do you believe in higher wages or even fair wages for working people in the United States?

The flooding of illegal aliens in this country has had a devastating effect on the wages of the working class in the United States. The illegal aliens don't just work the menial jobs that the citizens don'e want. They have made their way into the skilled labor trades such as carpentry, plumbing, electrician etc. Jobs like these that should be paying $35/hr in some cases are paying maybe $14/hr for example.

The flood of illegals in the United States hurt the poorer citizens the most. Do you know what happens when there is a labor shortage? Wages go up. So guess what happens when there is a flood of cheap labor? Hint: wages go down.



posted on Jan, 11 2019 @ 09:59 PM
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Actually Clinton did get a wall. It was never finished because of lawsuits from private land owners. The lawsuits are still ongoing. Even if Trump got approval for the wall, it couldn't be built because of these lawsuits and all the new ones that would come in. These are the people you all say are in danger and they don't see the need to have a wall, and certainly do not want it on their property which also extends into Mexico.

And to hold the government hostage over all of this. No I do not agree with mr. president.



posted on Jan, 12 2019 @ 03:11 AM
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originally posted by: sligtlyskeptical
Actually Clinton did get a wall. It was never finished because of lawsuits from private land owners. The lawsuits are still ongoing. Even if Trump got approval for the wall, it couldn't be built because of these lawsuits and all the new ones that would come in. These are the people you all say are in danger and they don't see the need to have a wall, and certainly do not want it on their property which also extends into Mexico.

And to hold the government hostage over all of this. No I do not agree with mr. president.


The illegal aliens don't just affect those near or at the border, I don't see where you found anyone making that argument unless you just made that up your self. Perhaps you could quote that for me?

Do you believe in higher wages or even fair wages for working people in the United States?

The flooding of illegal aliens in this country has had a devastating effect on the wages of the working class in the United States. The illegal aliens don't just work the menial jobs that the citizens don'e want. They have made their way into the skilled labor trades such as carpentry, plumbing, electrician etc. Jobs like these that should be paying $35/hr in some cases are paying maybe $14/hr for example.

The flood of illegals in the United States hurt the poorer citizens the most. Do you know what happens when there is a labor shortage? Wages go up. So guess what happens when there is a flood of cheap labor? Hint: wages go down.

It's sad so many people like you cannot see the forest for the trees.

Many of these illegals come from countries that have been countries longer than the United States. Ask yourself, why is it that the United States is doing better? Why is it that they need to come here to have a better life? Why can't they make it better in their own country?

The people of the United States bled for the ending of slavery, bled for civil rights, bled for our constitution, bled for workers rights, bled for a free Republic, fought to end and keep out corruption in the government fought for labor unions, fought the war on drugs and gangs and violence and crime and we continue our fights and our struggles.

Those people need to learn how to fight to make it better in their own country, like we do. The United States cannot just be some sort of destination for the violent, corrupt, lazy, chaotic , uneducated, unorganized, breeding grounds of people that they call countries.

So many of you democrats say we should stop policing the world and stay out of everyone's business. Well we can stay out of their business by them staying the hell out of our country!

I have a serious question for you. How does allowing illegals into or remain in this country help the citizens of this country?







 
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