6th Generation Fighter Meta Thread

originally posted by: Zaphod58
France and Germany sign export agreement.

I like how the article shows up the European infighting already taking place before even a concept of capability has been tabled! A real friendly partnership.

At least the UK one seems to be harmonious at the moment!

a reply to: Forensick

The "infighting" regarding weapon exports was there before the project started. It has now been resolved by the new export agreement. That is what partners do, argue and compromise.

Afaik, on the UK side there are no actual agreements with any partners as to who gets what part of the cake, are there?

originally posted by: moebius
Afaik, on the UK side there are no actual agreements with any partners as to who gets what part of the cake, are there?

I have read that the UK Tempest Programme has a different partnership model from the slavish "workshare" model the French obsess about, and which usually ends with the French “going alone” when they don’t get all they want. In the case of the FCAS it will be clear that the French expect a very significant workshare, as the programme will be run by them. Additionally, the FCAS Programme is political in nature as one aim is the centralisation of defence industrial capability within Europe, read the EU.

On the UK-side the Tempest Programme has Partners in Italy and Sweden, but that it’s all less formal at the moment. That’s probably best for a programme which is at the early stages and has already received a shed load of £ from the UK.

Looks like the boss of Airbus prefers a single European effort.

“Europe needs one strong project for securing its air and space sovereignty,” he said. “Can we do one project today at the time of Brexit? Probably not. So, it’s important that the FCAS [Franco-German project] keeps moving forward. Will there be a possibility to have one European project at a later stage? I hope so.”

UK Defence Journal

originally posted by: RexKramerPRT
Looks like the boss of Airbus prefers a single European effort.

Of course he does. So long as he leads it - he's French after all, and the Airbus-led programme is covered in the Tricolour. I wonder he would be so keen if the British led the programme. He knows that wthout British expertise the current Franco-German programme is very risky.

a reply to: paraphi

Italians seem happy with tilting to Team Tempest.

www.defensenews.com...

But then, the head of the Luftwaffe was tilting to the F-35. And we wall know what happened to him.

Safran and MTU sign engine agreement for FCAS.

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: paraphi

Italians seem happy with tilting to Team Tempest.

www.defensenews.com...

But then, the head of the Luftwaffe was tilting to the F-35. And we wall know what happened to him.

I think Leonardo UK are are significant Tempest partner and the parent company is 30% Italian Government owned so it kind of makes sense they would be a significant partner.

The problem with Airbus and a central European Aerospace company, as mentioned is #1 the French and #2 the lack of a competition with political abortions such as the A400M. Whilst I think that a European consortium like the Eurofighter and Tornado (of the which the french didnt participate) and the Sepecat Jaguar would be a good thing, the political nightmare would pull it apart and I quite like the idea of sacking off the French and letting them put one up the Germans who may leave the French program and sign up to Tempest thus leaving the French up the creek!

a reply to: Forensick

US Navy is still navel gazing.

news.usni.org...

I thought they had all the airframe ideas figured out in the 90,s.Or the new way of building planes thrown too many ideas into the mix?

The Japanese defense ministry has published a new design for the country’s next fighter, suggesting an even greater emphasis on range and payload than before.

The picture, not confirmed as a preferred design, appeared as the ministry detailed total funding of ¥28 billion ($255,780,000) for the fighter and related technologies in the fiscal year beginning April 1, 2020.

A change in the program name from Future Fighter to Next Generation Fighter (NGF), mentioned by Defense Minister Kono Taro on Dec. 17, is confirmed in the defense ministry’s Japanese-language report on its budget for fiscal 2020.

The twin-engine type is intended to enter service in the 2030s. Japan is considering proposals for cooperation with British and U.S. partners.

An illustration of the design differs markedly in planform from the most recent that has previously been shown, which was called 26DMU and prepared in fiscal 2014. The new design is somewhat reminiscent of concepts for the proposed Future Combat Air System and Tempest fighter programs, the former led by France and Germany and the latter by Britain. The Tempest is a possible basis for NGF.

...

These concepts have been extraordinarily large, bigger than the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor—perhaps suggesting that Godzilla would be a better project name than Next Generation Fighter.

aviationweek.com...

a reply to: anzha

Looks like an iteration of 24DMU with larger wings.
medium.com...

These concepts have been extraordinarily large...

Have they?

newatlas.com...

a reply to: anzha
Gonna need some good Capacitors and Batteries to hold the Pew Pew Juice...

Do you think they would ever incorporate TBCC tech into a fighter-sized aircraft?

a reply to: Masisoar

The Lockheed hypersonic demonstrator that was spotted was F-22 sized, so there is that.

Folks in the UK have been talking about using the precooler from Reaction Engines with a "standard" turbine to get Mach 3+ on the Tempest.

The problem is fuel efficiency: air resistance goes up as the square of the speed. Long range /and/ long time on station are really, really important for next gen fighters. OTOH, being able to dash in do the mission and get out faster than an enemy could react would be useful. On the gripping hand, no one is going to outrun lasers. With the Israeli and Chinese announcements plus the acceleration of the Navy's, pewpews are about to shake stuff up.

We will see.

There is so much hot technology being mooted here, it is enough to make everyone salivate...except the accountants, who can see programme risk and costs rising to levels that are just insane. Eventually, everyone is going to have to compromise somewhere, unless they are willing to wait years more whilst individual technology issues are resolved. And that's just not the Europeans, but the Russians, Chinese and Americans as well. The F-22 never got its full I/R suite and the helmet mounted sighting system, among a number of other goodies. And when you think of the multitude of technologies that 6th generation fighters will need to incorporate, it simply becomes the law of probability that not all of them will work out in time to cost and performance requirements, and stuff will have to be scaled back or cut out totally.

Have plenty of babies now folks...those future taxpayers will be needed!

originally posted by: anzha
a reply to: Masisoar

The Lockheed hypersonic demonstrator that was spotted was F-22 sized, so there is that.


The size match with the SR-72 single engine demonstrator Lockheed spoke about years ago.

edit on 19-1-2020 by darksidius because: (no reason given)

France and Germany launch demonstrator phase of FCAS.