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Economic case for Universal Basic Income (UBI)

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posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 12:44 AM
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Over my lifetime we have had HUGE increases in productivity from computers and automation. If as a people we have any chance to possibly pay off the national debt or continue some level of prosperity we need to have Universal Basic Income (UBI). According to studies a billionaire is only capable of spending around 30 million dollars per year. Given the size of the economy there is just not enough billionaires to keep the economy chugging along at a brisk rate. The only solution to keep the economy pumping along is to give people more money to spend.

Here's a really good article on the subject:

An Economic Case for Universal Basic Income

With all the additional money in the economy it ALL comes right back to shareholders who will finance UBI. People with the lowest incomes usually spend 100% of it with zero savings. So it will just come right back to the billionaires.

With automation in high gear the number of workers needed to produce all the Worlds products and services is less and less every year. Yet wages are completely flat and poverty is rising:



All my life the only allowable solution is tax cuts for the rich and trickle down economics. And every time it doesn't work.




posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:16 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Poverty is not rising. Poverty is decreasing world-wide. We’ve reduced extreme poverty in half over the last 30 years, and it could be eradicated in our life-time.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:31 AM
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UBI is so far the best solution to the coming hyper automation of work. Critics of the concept underestimate the speed with which things will change over the next years and decades. Unless a better solution is found it will be UBI or depopulation I think.

It's not a popular concept here on ATS though. But we need to have this discussion now before things start changing too fast.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:40 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Won't work.

Nice idea, but it simply won't work.

There are 300,000,000 people in the US. Most seem to think that $30,000 per year is the 'minimum' livable wage, based on recent calls for $15 an hour. That's $9,000,000,000,000 (9 trillion dollars) per year if everyone was on it. Now, consider that the entire US budget is hovering somewhere a little less than half that, meaning taxes would have to triple (and actually more, because only tripling taxes would also triple the deficit). That assumes, of course, that we are going to provide this basic income to everyone regardless of whether they have a job or not.

What will that do to the economy? Well, there will be some who simply live off the basic income and don't want a job. That means less workers in the job market, and that means less work getting done. So the result is that there will be less goods available, but more people with money wanting those goods... which is the exact definition of inflation: too much money chasing too few goods.

So how do we combat inflation? Well, we can't require more people to work, of course, since that is antithetical to the basic idea of a basic income. We can't very well force companies to make more goods, with the labor force shrinking. not to mention the headaches that little proposal would come with. So the only thing left is to accept the inflation and raise the basic income to compensate... which means more money chasing the same number of goods, which means more inflation, which means a raise in the basic income, which means more money chasing the same number of goods, which means higher inflation, which means... you get the idea.

Now, where is that $9 trillion (and more, considering the above) going to come from? Well, it's obvious you want to tax the rich. They really don't need all that money after all. But then what happens when they want that much money? Too bad for them? No, not really.... they'll just move. They'll go to some country where they can have all that extra money. Of course, we could still tax their businesses... unless those businesses moved off shore as well. Then we have even less jobs available, so more people needing that basic income, and we just lost a big chunk of the money we were counting on to pay for it.

So what if we were to only provide that basic income to those who make less? Well, one thing it would do is cause a severe shortage of lower-class jobs. After all, who is going to work for $30k/year when they can make $30k/year sitting in their recliner all day watching Oprah and Dr. Phil? No one. So the only jobs that anyone will do will be the higher paying jobs, and that means automation will be forced into the market much faster. And we still have the issue of who is going to pay for all this.

I understand your thinking; I really do. I would love to see everyone have a basic wage. But the realities of the idea are not conducive with human nature. The end result would be something quite akin to Venezuela. I really don't want to eat zebra.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:41 AM
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Money is not the root of all evil.
The love of money is.

America has a giant problem.
They received a blessing from God, under George Washington, just like old Israel did under King Solomon . They both committed their countries to God, and said pretty much identical things and the same prayer. Both Israel and America were to follow God to receive the blessing. They each also warned of the curse on each country if they turned their back on God.

Did you know that Washington addressed Congress for the first time in New York city. Then they all walked down the street to ground zero to pray at the little church right next to where the twin towers once stood? Most people don't. I should do a thread on it sometime. We fell away, just like old Israel did. Israel lost protection, just as we did on 9-11.

Don't worry about the money. That's next

There is a good book by Jonathan Cahn that goes into great detail. You aught to check it out.
All that money the 1% has will be worthless soon. Of course we will be in the same boat



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:43 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Yes it seems a ubi will keep the gears grinding for a while at least it seems, although it doesn't account for 3rd world populations and looking at current trends it's safe to assume many more will be looking to get into the west, illegal migration numbers will catapult and chaos will reign.

As it is the cash injection into the economy each week through welfare isn't cutting it although at least it's enough to keep it from completely collapsing.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:46 AM
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a reply to: MindBodySpiritComplex
I vote depopulation. Its quite simple. Whenever people want to off themselves do not talk them out of it! Let them know that the human race accepts their sacrifice and will try to do better. UBI is something a spoiled generation came up with so they can play video games and eat chips, and then go to hipster bars and spend that free money on over priced craft drinks.

How about people stop begging for someone to create jobs that pay well and go out and create their own jobs where they determine their own pay. I get that everybody wants to just play video games, sleep in on Mondays, and go to bars, eat sushi, and catch a movie five times a week with their friends. Just because robots and AI computing exists now does not mean that dream gets to come true.

UBI can kiss my ass.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:46 AM
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The elites will kill us off before UBI ever sees the light of day. That has been the plan for over 2000 years. Not to mention you will never be able to make the economics work.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 01:52 AM
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originally posted by: Metallicus
The elites will kill us off before UBI ever sees the light of day. That has been the plan for over 2000 years. Not to mention you will never be able to make the economics work.




The elites aren't killing us off anytime soon, they need the worker bees, the drones like us. Without the workers the hive fails.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 02:17 AM
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Income inequality from a pro on the subject. George Carlin




posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 02:24 AM
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First off a disclaimer that I don't think UBI is the best solution and I also think that much of talk of automation replacing huge numbers of human workers is overblown.

That said there is a decent case that a UBI would be better than current mishmash system of benefits used in most countries.

It's also not true that a UBI has to be unaffordable. Its perfectly possible to design a UBI system that is revenue neutral*.

*Not that governments should,really be concerned about this, but that's a different discussion.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 02:34 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

Like it or not will soon become the new norm as states become sovereign,once the economy crashes,at best will have a set wage,if you don't work you get nothing,back to how it used to be,check Brazil sold out to the Chinese,see how well they like it



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 02:41 AM
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originally posted by: Propagandalf
a reply to: dfnj2015

Poverty is not rising. Poverty is decreasing world-wide. We’ve reduced extreme poverty in half over the last 30 years, and it could be eradicated in our life-time.

I agree with this statement 100%.

All evidence shows that poverty has decreased immensely over the last 50 years. For a source please consult ‘Hans Roslin - Factfulness- 2018’.

If you take the money from the billionaires they will leave your country.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 03:16 AM
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a reply to: visitedbythem

If you think the god of the Bible is the same god that the Masons respect then you really need to brush up on your history.

All Empires eventually fall and another takes its place. I guess the removal of Gods blessing in your examples has your narrative "covered".



projects.leadr.msu.edu...


All together it is believed that about nine of the fifty-six men that signed the Declaration of Independence were masons, and about thirteen of the thirty-nine that signed the US Constitutions were also masons. ........


Many believe that George Washington knew that slavery was wrong and that it had no place in a free nation like America but that he knew the US was not ready to undergo such a change.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 06:26 AM
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The article says 10,000 per person, per year.
Why not a million a year? Think how awesome our economy would be is every american citizen was a millionaire!
Heck, the luxury car and yacht industries alone would explode.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 06:35 AM
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Ubi can not and never will work.
Every dollar you give away for free is taken by force from someone else. If you give everyone 30k, you also need to charge entire 30k plus overhead fees to have that money. Otherwise you're printing it off and devaluing the supply, meaning next week everyone will need 40k, then 60k, etc.

Only in a world where nobody understands basic trade could an idea as stupid as ubi be seriously discussed.

Do yourself a favour- go through the entire thought process again but replace dollars with an item. Apples. Candy corn. Door knobs. Silver bars.
It doesn't work, it's not possible



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 06:40 AM
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originally posted by: a325nt
Ubi can not and never will work.
Every dollar you give away for free is taken by force from someone else. If you give everyone 30k, you also need to charge entire 30k plus overhead fees to have that money. Otherwise you're printing it off and devaluing the supply, meaning next week everyone will need 40k, then 60k, etc.

Only in a world where nobody understands basic trade could an idea as stupid as ubi be seriously discussed.

Do yourself a favour- go through the entire thought process again but replace dollars with an item. Apples. Candy corn. Door knobs. Silver bars.
It doesn't work, it's not possible


1. We already reallocate money by tax and spend. UBI is basically a simplification of an existing system.

2. Money isn't like any of those things you listed. Money can and is created out of nothing on a continual basis.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 06:40 AM
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originally posted by: caterpillage
The article says 10,000 per person, per year.
Why not a million a year? Think how awesome our economy would be is every american citizen was a millionaire!
Heck, the luxury car and yacht industries alone would explode.


Because that would be silly.



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 06:41 AM
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a reply to: dfnj2015

"This time, we will make socialism 'better' "
- said, every single socialist ever



posted on Dec, 27 2018 @ 06:45 AM
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originally posted by: a325nt

1. We already reallocate money by tax and spend. UBI is basically a simplification of an existing system.

2. Money isn't like any of those things you listed. Money can and is created out of nothing on a continual basis.


Hence why we have this problem... Let's add to it right? Oh. You were trying to fix it using socialism....NVM




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