Hitler and the Nazis were not Right-wing.

a reply to: Dfairlite

But, you lose the "right = freedom" debate with that.

a reply to: daskakik

Neither extreme = freedom.

The current right in America is not the extreme right. They're not advocating for theocracy nor are they electing people who are theocrats. The current left in america is getting into the extreme left territory as they are electing socialists, which is just a step shy of communists.

a reply to: Dfairlite

So the theory is that the further right you go it means more freedom until it, all of a sudden, becomes anti-freedom?

I don't buy that.

a reply to: daskakik

No, not at all. Not sure where you're getting your crazy ideas. Let me make a pic for you

This is the political spectrum:
Communism----------|----------Theocracy

This is where the american left sits:
---0------|----------

This is where the american right sits:
----------|--0-------

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

It is entertaining seeing you, and others like you, trying to deny the fact that "nazism" had/has more in common with the left, than with the right.

It is entertaining, but at the same time troublesome, to see people like you try to deny the fact that nazism is a branch of socialism, meanwhile you keep having, and pushing to force, many of the same "beliefs" the nazis had.

No and it's very telling that you would then try and insinuate I have Nazi beliefs because I don't agree with you .

a reply to: Dfairlite

I'm not talking about where the american right and left sit.

It is your idea that right of center means more freedom until you get to a certain point, which you called the "extreme" and gave as an example theocracies.

How can that be? It doesn't make sense. If right is the color white and the left is the color black and all along the spectrum there are different shades of gray, with a 50/50 mix at the center the shade would get lighter with each step to the right until the end where it turns to black as well?

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: daskakik

No, not at all. Not sure where you're getting your crazy ideas. Let me make a pic for you

This is the political spectrum:
Communism----------|----------Theocracy

This is where the american left sits:
---0------|----------

This is where the american right sits:
----------|--0-------

That's an interesting analysis situation you put.

a reply to: daskakik

You're continuing on with the assumption that right = freedom when that's not the case as I've told you three different times now.

It is your idea that right of center means more freedom until you get to a certain point, which you called the "extreme" and gave as an example theocracies.

I have not contended that ever. That's your contention (which I've tried to explain is not what I think or am saying, many times now). The center is the constitution. Absolute freedom is anarchy and does not fall on the spectrum as the spectrum is about government and anarchy is lack of government.

The further right you move from the center, the less freedom. The further left you move, the less freedom. If you're far left, moving right pushes you more towards freedom. If you're far right, moving left pushes you towards more freedom.

I don't find this concept that difficult to grasp so either I'm doing a poor job explaining it or you're making all sorts of assumptions which are incorrect and attempting to apply them to the situation.

ETA:
A far right example would be saudi arabia, a move left would move them towards freedom.
A far left example would be china, a move right would move them towards freedom.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: djz3ro


You managed to miss the crux of my post by pointing out where I'd gone wrong. The reason the Nazi's implimented socialist policies was because it was their version of Socialism, a right wing version of it. I may be wrong about Nationalism being purely Right-wing but I'm not wrong about the points you didn't address.

There is no right-wing form of socialism... That's an oxymoron... In all forms of socialism the state owns and controls the means of production. Hitler and the nazis controlled all businesses in Germany.

Right-wing = less government control.
left-wing = a centralized system with more government control.

How Bush's grandfather helped Hitler's rise to power

It was Big Private Business that brought Hitler to power which the left are usually against.
In this country, if we ever got a Hitler, it would be from those that support the deep pocket corporations and banks purchasing politicians.

Here is one such case where the right would have defended it.
Money is freedom of speech.


www.theguardian.com...



George Bush's grandfather, the late US senator Prescott Bush, was a director and shareholder of companies that profited from their involvement with the financial backers of Nazi Germany.
The Guardian has obtained confirmation from newly discovered files in the US National Archives that a firm of which Prescott Bush was a director was involved with the financial architects of Nazism.

His business dealings, which continued until his company's assets were seized in 1942 under the Trading with the Enemy Act, has led more than 60 years later to a civil action for damages being brought in Germany against the Bush family by two former slave labourers at Auschwitz and to a hum of pre-election controversy.


www.mondialisation.ca...

The Bush family links to Nazi Germany’s war economy were first brought to light at the Nuremberg trials in the testimony of Nazi Germany’s steel magnate Fritz Thyssen. Thyssen was a partner of George W. Bush’s grandfather Prescott Bush:

It took a lot of money to put Hitler in power.
Lets see the people behind the money and we will have the answer.

I know in the USA, it is not party but the wealthy that call the shots.
The right sides with wealthy every time while demonizing the poor.



represent.us...

One thing that does have an influence? Money. While the opinions of the bottom 90% of income earners in America have a “statistically non-significant impact,” economic elites, business interests, and people who can afford lobbyists still carry major influence.

I look at Nazi Germany no different than Communist China and who empowered them.
There were protests in the thousands by the left against trade with China.

Today, thousands of corporations do business with them for their cheap commie labor.
When that deal goes sour, and it already is, the tables get turned and the left gets blamed when it has always been the right to support commie or dictator nations like Saudi Arabia when there is money to be made.

Lol, funny, you may have a career as a comedian, but you don’t as a political analyst. a reply to: Dfairlite

a reply to: Dfairlite

You may have not said it but it has been said many times and it is the gist of the OP. In a nut shell the OP is "NAZIS were oppressive so they can't be right wing" why would that be? What is inferred is that right wing means freedom. OP (and many others) has been saying this on ATS for years.

Like I said in my first post in this thread, it is what americans are taught. It is what many, even in this thread, have said.

No, I agree Hitler was not right wing. But he wasn't left-wing either. Many of his ideas and policies are in direct contradiction with the left. The left believes in a class based society, and that race is just a means of the upper classes to divide the lower classes and to keep them fighting themselves instead of the upper class. Hitler did not approve of this at all, and he put race as the centerpiece of his ideology.

Hitler was somebody who you can't really classify in the old left-right spectrum. He transcends it. Some of his policies and ideologies have been agreeing with the left, some have been agreeing with the right. So it's hard to put him in a box like that.

That said, virtually all people who live today and who try to follow Hitler's ideology are right wing. For example, nowadays you see the KKK supporting right-wing candidates such as Trump, and never left wing candidates.

originally posted by: face23785

originally posted by: murphy22

The NAZI'S did everything they claimed to be "fighting" against. I think it funny how the evil minds (of the "modern" Democrats) do not understand how they have become the very thing/things they claim to be against.

While I wouldn't compare the Democrats to the Nazis, this is absolutely true. Liberals used to be the ones who wanted freedom, for the government to leave you alone, openness and for minority views to be respected. There are still liberals like that, but the American left today is largely about forcing their views on everyone else, often with government intervention. That's not a liberal platform. It amazes me how many people subscribe to that and describe themselves as liberals.

That's because modern Democrats actually lean right now, for the most part. Every democratic president we get now is not a real liberal, they are moderate republicans. Real liberals still exit, they just aren't as common and aren't being pushed for the presidency.

Oh, this hoary one from the you guys.

This has been an Alt Right talking point for ages.

It's simply not true.

Nazism, and Fascism in general, are Right Wing ideologies.

End of.

And anyone who says otherwise is, of course, a massive idiot. But they also demonstrate that the Alt Right understands that being labeled as Nazis isn't a good thing.

Too bad, Al Right, you're Nazis.

Whine about it all you like. But you are. And those who support you are Nazi sympathizers.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse
a reply to: murphy22

As a matter of fact, which parties are the ones who always complain about "Israel being an evil country who are always attacking the good people of Palestine and taking their lands for no motive"?... It isn't the right, of that you can be sure. It is the left who to this day show hatred for Israel, and favor a terrorist state, which is no state because "Palestinians" never agreed to allow Israel to exist as part of a deal which would have made possible for Palestine to exist as a nation. As if they didn't have over 90% of the Middle East under Muslim control already.

The left hates Israel, yet Obama pandered to them for the last 8 years LOL. Favor a terrorist state? You are just appealing to rhetoric at this point.

originally posted by: Dfairlite
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

How to win this debate with leftists:

Far right is theocracy, right?

Far left is communism, right?

How does nazism (national socialists) come closer to theocracy than communism??? It doesn't. Game over.

Since when is far right theocracy? I think you mean Corporatocracy, because that's extreme capitalism which panders to corporations and gives them the real power.

Hitler was in the middle but leaned slightly right fiscally. He wasn't left wing or right wing, just extreme authoritarian.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Being pro choice is not the same as putting lives of animals above humans.

Banning animal experimentation meanwhile they were experimenting on humans shows that they cared more for animals than for humans... The Jewish people were branded as barbaric, and inhuman because of how they killed animals in their rituals. Animal Rights was used as part of their argument that "Jewish people were a problem..." There were propaganda films before every movie in nazi Germany that described the Jewish people as inhumane. This desinthesized many non-Jewish Germans so when they saw what was happening to the Jewish people as they were being rounded up to be sent to concentration camps, it was in the minds of non-Jewish Germans that "Jewish people were barbaric and inhumane..."

Sending people to concentration camps for "cutting up a frog for bait," or boiling crabs and lobsters, also shows the nazi Germans cared more for animals than for humans...

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Can you show where the they actually did nationalize the means of production? As opposed to selective quoting from an unverified interview'

Can you prove that what I excerpted is false, or unverified?...
Not to mention it was in their 25 points program...

...
Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries. (Wealth redistribution)

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
...
COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

www.historyplace.com...

And AGAIN... When the nazis/Hitler could control the people who owned the means of production in fact it is the state/government who owns and controls the means of production...

THe nazi government/Hitler would tell people for how much they could sell things, to whom, what they could and could not produce, to whom to sell them, etc, etc.

The nazis/Hitler controlled every aspect of people's lives.

originally posted by: ElectricUniverse

originally posted by: ScepticScot

Being pro choice is not the same as putting lives of animals above humans.

Banning animal experimentation meanwhile they were experimenting on humans shows that they cared more for animals than for humans... The Jewish people were branded as barbaric, and inhuman because of how they killed animals in their rituals. Animal Rights was used as part of their argument that "Jewish people were a problem..." There were propaganda films before every movie in nazi Germany that described the Jewish people as inhumane. This desinthesized many non-Jewish Germans so when they saw what was happening to the Jewish people as they were being rounded up to be sent to concentration camps, it was in the minds of non-Jewish Germans that "Jewish people were barbaric and inhumane..."

Sending people to concentration camps for "cutting up a frog for bait," or boiling crabs and lobsters, also shows the nazi Germans cared more for animals than for humans...

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Can you show where the they actually did nationalize the means of production? As opposed to selective quoting from an unverified interview'

Can you prove that what I excerpted is false, or unverified?...
Not to mention it was in their 25 points program...

...
Therefore we demand:

11. That all unearned income, and all income that does not arise from work, be abolished.

12. Since every war imposes on the people fearful sacrifices in blood and treasure, all personal profit arising from the war must be regarded as treason to the people. We therefore demand the total confiscation of all war profits.

13. We demand the nationalization of all trusts.

14. We demand profit-sharing in large industries. (Wealth redistribution)

15. We demand a generous increase in old-age pensions.

16. We demand the creation and maintenance of a sound middle-class, the immediate communalization of large stores which will be rented cheaply to small tradespeople, and the strongest consideration must be given to ensure that small traders shall deliver the supplies needed by the State, the provinces and municipalities.

17. We demand an agrarian reform in accordance with our national requirements, and the enactment of a law to expropriate the owners without compensation of any land needed for the common purpose. The abolition of ground rents, and the prohibition of all speculation in land.

18. We demand that ruthless war be waged against those who work to the injury of the common welfare. Traitors, usurers, profiteers, etc., are to be punished with death, regardless of creed or race.
...
COMMON GOOD BEFORE INDIVIDUAL GOOD

25. In order to carry out this program we demand: the creation of a strong central authority in the State, the unconditional authority by the political central parliament of the whole State and all its organizations.

The formation of professional committees and of committees representing the several estates of the realm, to ensure that the laws promulgated by the central authority shall be carried out by the federal states.

The leaders of the party undertake to promote the execution of the foregoing points at all costs, if necessary at the sacrifice of their own lives.

www.historyplace.com...

And AGAIN... When the nazis/Hitler could control the people who owned the means of production in fact it is the state/government who owns and controls the means of production...

THe nazi government/Hitler would tell people for how much they could sell things, to whom, what they could and could not produce, to whom to sell them, etc, etc.

The nazis/Hitler controlled every aspect of people's lives.

No one is disputing that the Nazis has little regard for human life. However that has nothing to do with being left wing or right. The points you made have nothing to do with text you quoted.

You are quoting the the 25 point planfrom 1920. I asked to show how Nazi Germany actually nationalised industry. Something you haven't done (I assume because you can't as they didn't)

As for state control of the economy.

Rationing
Price controls
Wage controls
Compulsory registration for work.

All policies in the UK under Churchill. Was Churchill a socialist as well?

Nazi Germany was highly authoritarian. That doesn't make it left wing. Your strange notion that there are no authoritarian right wing governments is easily disproved by even a basic knowledge of history or even modern politics.