An argument why atheism is wrong and theism is the only rational choice

a reply to: dfnj2015

Why do you need to think like everyone else?people have a choice of careers to learn new things,by being incumbered by a religion is mind slavery,a control method,why the F does someone judge another because of his personal beliefs? thats because those under control are afraid of free thinking

a reply to: chr0naut

I don't think that some kind of deity is out of the realms of possibility, I just haven't seen anything personally to support that notion and therefore don't believe that one exists. Over human history the notion of gods were used to explain the things that we didn't understand and now we are slowly gathering the answers to those questions without the need for any supreme being of sorts.

a reply to: Woodcarver

I don’t believe many people when they tell me about their god and I am not an atheist

a reply to: dfnj2015

Your OP was interesting but one phrase in particular stood out to me. "end of materialism"

Many people equate atheism with materialism. But what exactly is a god? I could say these people worship material reality. Likewise, an atheist with ethics might be said to worship humanity. So atheism would be more of a lack of traditional understanding of god. Everyone holds something in high regard, theist or atheist. It could even be said those that call themselves atheist are just idol worshipers even if their final reality is logic itself.

If science says there's more than 3 dimensions, dimensions that we can't fathom, then maybe there is a God dimension. I'm still on the fence about God being real, but I can't dismiss it either. I hope there is one, and I have nothing to lose by believing in one so I try. But I can't say atheists are wrong.

a reply to: dfnj2015

Who is to say one opinion is better than anyone else's. Who is to say one opinion is better than anyone else's.

You seem to be???
I really don't believe that those who believe there is a good are more likely to belief that life is sacred, that people are sacred and more likely to treat them with respect. all one has to do is read through these thread and see just how many people, many of them trying to use biblical principles to justify their positions, are showing absolutely no respect to anyone who may disagree with them.
I'd rather believe that there are many paths one may chose to take, some may be long while others may be shorter, but they all lead to the same destination. there is no right path. the long paths might take longer, they might be much more difficult, but they will also offer the most experiences, the most opportunities to learn about ourselves, and the creation we live in. and, maybe, just maybe, it's necessary for us to travel all those paths before we reach that destination. We will have to learn the lessons of hitler, as well as the lessons of of the saints of old. and, there will be times when we will walk alone, without gods to answer to..
you claim that those who believe in a god, or gods are superior to those that do not. but, many of those who believe break the laws of man, treat the poor like crap, are as charitable as King Midas, they lie, they disobey, get high on their power, and well, are kind of jerks... and they are the ones who have a god who is telling them to obey the laws of man, to give to the poor, to not lie, not commit adultery, to love your neighbor as yourself!! so, if a person who doesn't have this god breathing down on them, threatening hell and damnation if they disobey, can go through their lives being kind to the poor, sharing what they have with the less fortunate, obeying the laws of both man and YOUR GOD better than those who follow that god, well, I am not sure that it's him that is the inferior... since the believer is trying, and often failing because of a fear that was instilled in him early in life of this god, while the unbeliever is just doing what he believes is the right thing to do with no outside pressure for him to do it.

originally posted by: longy9999
a reply to: chr0naut

I don't think that some kind of deity is out of the realms of possibility, I just haven't seen anything personally to support that notion and therefore don't believe that one exists. Over human history the notion of gods were used to explain the things that we didn't understand and now we are slowly gathering the answers to those questions without the need for any supreme being of sorts.

I could counter that there are many things that were never explained by gods or the supernatural. The core of most religion has not been simplistic explanations of natural processes but often relates to questions of morality and ethics.

Nor do I think that science is capable of explaining everything. It is systematic and ordered but there are things it cannot possibly explain and by its reductive nature and its requirement that it cannot encompass absolutes it will always be defeated by irreducible complexity, which must rationally exist. Science, of course is entirely blind to irreducible complexity because it cannot encompass anything beyond the data-set of the limited and divisible.

God, as a meta-concept above and beyond science is one such thing that science will never be useful in describing.

Religion posits that the only way we can know of such things is by direct revelation. We could never know about God except that God revealed Himself to us. The totality of God is greater than our capacity to comprehend.

Once you embrace that God is existent and created you (no doubt for a reason), and you begin to interact with God as best you can, you begin to see synchronicities and supportive correlations which build up until you believe more than you doubt. This does not remove doubt, but doubt allows you to test and prove God, as what were once unassailable, suddenly have answers and evidences.

a reply to: chr0naut

Why should an atheist take offense at one collection of chemistry doing any of these things against another collection of chemistry?

I don't know, think I wasn't even five years old when I learned that being burned is really quite painful, and that was just a hot iron. I kind of think that god or no god, reason would tell me that if they were going around burning people at the stake something is very wrong and it could happen to me, or someone I care about....
and I wouldn't want to be hurt, or to see others hurt in such a horrible way/

I really think that it takes a strong belief system drunken on power, ie... catholic church hand in hand with the hierarchal structure of kings, nobility, priests, ect... to desensitize and condition the people to justify treating one another in that fashion.

Well, first of all I think alot of what you are saying now would be considered blasphemy as little as 100 years ago.
Religions are not exactly known for their progressive thinking.
Which makes you wonder if 100 years is all it takes to 'reconsider' just about everything we know (about god and science) whats going to happen in the next 100 years?

And secondly I'd like to note that god has a terrible time schedule. If you look at all the (supposed) interaction between god and man you have ask yourself the question: 'Where is he now?'
Look at all the trouble he went through with those retarded peasants. If he just took a small break back then and performed 1% now of what he did back then I would recon his word would have much more impact. Or is that just too convenient?
I mean he is god after all. He should have seen this comming.

In this thread:

Self righteous believers = brilliant people

Atheists = Hitler



As someone else has said, all are humans. So you'd find nasty bastards everywhere and you'll find nice people everywhere, all at the same amount. However that doesn't really fit with the self righteous opinions of the brilliant believers...

a reply to: chr0naut


I agree, there will be many things science will not be able to answer before humanity inevitably destroys itself but as our current understanding of the universe around us increases so does our capacity to tackle the questions we have, so far no deity required for the answers.

Its to my understanding that the gods were created way back when our more primitive brothers couldn't explain what was happening around them, they didn't understand the sun, they didn't understand the stars and they didn't understand the weather so they created these deities as a way to explain them. Since then of course science has provided us the answers as to why these things happen, we have examined the data, gathered the evidence and have understood what causes the events that seemed like magic to our ancestors.

As for the morality of religion I so far just see a long history of death, murder and greed. Even now once again war is waged in the name of whichever particular deity that group believes in. Organised religion is nothing more than a way to extort money and conformity out of its followers all under the promise that their services will be rewarded when they die. I for one am happy to be a good and decent person without the need for a prize at the end of the ride.

For me evidence is required, I cannot simply put faith into something that has no evidence to support it, I do not believe in gods for the same reason I don't believe the tooth fairy, there's nothing to tell me otherwise and until such a time as evidence presents itself I won't be able to.

Ah yes, the classic "atheists are bad" nonsense from a believer, to make him feel batter about himself, superior to those filthy atheist savages.

a reply to: a325nt

The antitheists of this world laugh at the primitive notion of explaining away the unknown with some great all knowing powerful being.

Proof in a nutshell of the OP.
Bold by me to signify

Atheists take their lack of religion to religious levels, becoming evangelical about it.

I'm agnostic, while I lean towards there not being a supernatural being, I can't prove that.

I'm not going to push my believes on anyone, and likewise don't want someone else's beliefs pushed on me. While conversation is one thing, what I really mean is I don't want government making religious decisions.

Being an atheist was a big part of why I couldn't even bring myself to eat meat for most of my life.

a reply to: dfnj2015



Nah - moral integrity is a natural human attribute and not the invention of some organised religious group, cult or sect.

Don't really see anything wrong with deism but when you start beleiving yourself to be more special, chosen or superior to other human beings because of a non provable belief system then that's when the trouble starts.

'My karma ran over your dogma' and all that.

"I believe in God; I just don't trust anyone who works for him." ~Author unknown


“One of the great tragedies of mankind is that morality has been hijacked by religion".
Arthur C Clarke


"In every country and every age, the priest had been hostile to Liberty." ~ U.S. President Thomas Jefferson


"Religion is no more the parent of morality than an incubator is the mother of a chicken.”
Lemuel K. Washburn


"That is the idea -- that we should all be wicked if we did not hold to the Christian religion. It seems to me that the people who have held to it have been for the most part extremely wicked. You find this curious fact, that the more intense has been the religion of any period and the more profound has been the dogmatic belief, the greater has been the cruelty and the worse has been the state of affairs. In the so-called Ages of faith, when men really did believe the Christian religion in all its completeness, there was the Inquisition, with all its tortures; there were millions of unfortunate women burned as witches; and there was every kind of cruelty practiced upon all sorts of people in the name of religion".
Bertrand Russell


"Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction".
Blaise Pascal


"Religion supports nobody. It has to be supported. It produces no wheat, no corn; it ploughs no land; it fells no forests. It is a perpetual mendicant. It lives on the labors of others, and then has the arrogance to pretend that it supports the giver." ~Robert G. Ingersoll


"When the churches literally ruled society, the human drama encompassed: (a) slavery; (b) the cruel subjection of women;(c)the most savage forms of legal punishment; (d) the absurd belief that kings ruled by divine right; (e) the daily imposition of physical abuse; (f) cold heartlessness for the sufferings of the poor; as well as (g) assorted pogroms ('ethnic cleansing' wars) between rival religions, capital punishment for literally hundreds of offenses, and countless other daily imposed moral outrages. . . . It was the free-thinking, challenging work by people of conscience, who almost invariably had to defy the religious and political status quo of their times, that brought us out of such darkness." Steve Allen


“I have examined all the known superstitions of the word, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth.”
Thomas Jefferson (the third President of the United States)


“All natural institutions of churches, whether Jewish, Christian, or Turkish, appear to me no other than human inventions, set up to terrify and enslave mankind, and monopolize power and profit.”
Thomas Paine


"Man is a Religious Animal. He is the only Religious Animal. He is the only animal that has the True Religion - several of them. He is the only animal that loves his neighbor as himself and cuts his throat if his theology isn't straight. He has made a graveyard of the globe in trying his honest best to smooth his brother's path to happiness and heaven."
Mark Twain


"The function of Theology? The recitation of the incomprehensible by the unspeakable to pick the pockets of the unthinking."
Robert Anton Wilson


"Religion is based . . . mainly on fear . . . fear of the mysterious, fear of defeat, fear of death. Fear is the parent of cruelty, and therefore it is no wonder if cruelty and religion have gone hand in hand. . . . My own view on religion is that of Lucretius. I regard it as a disease born of fear and as a source of untold misery to the human race."
Bertrand Russell


"Time and again we see leaders and members of religions incite aggression, fanaticism, hate and xenophobia - even inspire and legitimize violent and bloody conflicts."
Hans Küng


"At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity: idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political ideas."
Aldous Huxley


"Faith is a euphemism for prejudice and religion is a euphemism for superstition."
Paul Keller


"If we go back to the beginnings of things, we shall always find that ignorance and fear created the gods; that imagination, rapture and deception embellished them; that weakness worships them; that custom spares them; and that tyranny favors them in order to profit from the blindness of men."
Paul-Henri,Baron d'Holbach;The System of Nature

Post a religious quote (for or against)

originally posted by: Oldtimer2
a reply to: dfnj2015

Why do you need to think like everyone else?people have a choice of careers to learn new things,by being incumbered by a religion is mind slavery,a control method,why the F does someone judge another because of his personal beliefs? thats because those under control are afraid of free thinking

a reply to: karl 12

I could pump out a hundred bible quotes saying humanity is debased and evil
Your quotes prove nothing

Mao,,Stalin and Pol,Pot were atheists and had no morals
What does history teach us

Where does survival of the fittest teach morals, your argument s childish and foolish
And just in case you think I am saying religious people have better morales I am not

What I will say is Jesus taught love over religion
Your belief in nothing teaches nothing

originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: chr0naut

Why should an atheist take offense at one collection of chemistry doing any of these things against another collection of chemistry?

I don't know, think I wasn't even five years old when I learned that being burned is really quite painful, and that was just a hot iron. I kind of think that god or no god, reason would tell me that if they were going around burning people at the stake something is very wrong and it could happen to me, or someone I care about....
and I wouldn't want to be hurt, or to see others hurt in such a horrible way/

I really think that it takes a strong belief system drunken on power, ie... catholic church hand in hand with the hierarchal structure of kings, nobility, priests, ect... to desensitize and condition the people to justify treating one another in that fashion.

I believe that many religions got a hold on their respective populations in this very way. How many villages were destroyed and families killed before the people just decided not to resist anymore. Parents who were afraid that their children would offend the local/invading crusaders, so they start making sure their children believe in that religion to a T.