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Okay kids, do Christian artists HAVE to draw same-sex material

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posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 06:13 PM
a reply to: Byrd

So, freedom of speech and freedom of religion aren't equal.

If that's true then it's truly scary and freedom of religion is on the chopping block. One of the main reasons we fought to be free of a Monarchy and State Church.

There was a time in our history when the government posing as a church did this exact thing. It's not the church doing it now, but then political ideologies have become religions.

What a sad state of affairs when bigots who hate the Gays are head to head with bigots who hate Christians with the governments support. They are the same and they don't even realize it. Both think they are righteous in it.

I suppose those who are themselves bigots who hate people of faith are blind to the fact they are next and our rights are slowly taken away using one excuse or another. Everyone wants to control everyone else. What a dangerous mess this is.

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 06:17 PM
a reply to: sdcigarpig

Mate, i would sell a one-legged lesbian black vegan blind dwarf crack coc aine, moondust, or whatever else her heart desired.

I don't discriminate, nor does supply and demand, if people want something they tend to get it somehow.

Merry Christmas

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 06:31 PM
a reply to: andy06shake
Personally I wouldn't sell her the crack for my own moral reasons.
When I was a young teenager I was a car thief but I never stole a car from someone who could lose their minimum wage job if they couldn't work.
I stole cars from rich people...not proud of it but it makes my point even thieves have ethical codes.

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 07:21 PM
I think a would just bake a cake and then outsource the offensive details to a contractor (of low morals ha ha) ....contractor delivers cake to the heathen buyers.

Surely if i pull up to a USA gas station you cant deny me gasoline cuz u dont like my bumper sticker or something else about me?? Can abortion doctors be denied gasoline??

Give the freaks their gas and cakes...keep your fingers off the dirty details...outsource as needed.

a reply to: neutronflux

edit on 12/24/2018 by FrostyFlakes because: Spelling

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 07:22 PM
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Would you give her the crack free?

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 08:25 PM

originally posted by: visitedbythem

originally posted by: Byrd

originally posted by: ketsuko
What this is about is less about the customers being gay and more about the Christian not wanting to participate personally in a ceremony they feel mocks God.

They knew the law was in place when they set up a business there. They could have chosen to go somewhere else (like move their shop just outside the city limits. Lots of people do that.)

It could be argued that they decided to target the city since this is just a theoretical lawsuit.

Gods laws trump the laws of men. We all have a choice as to which we will follow.
Romans 1:27
Likewise, the men abandoned natural relations with women and burned with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.

1 Timothy 1:10
for the sexually immoral, for homosexuals, for slave traders and liars and perjurers, and for anyone else who is averse to sound teaching

Genesis 19:5
They called out to Lot, saying, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Send them out to us so we can have relations with them!"

Okay... you just quoted three fragments of chapters in the Bible (one is instructions in Timothy and is the part where he talks about church practices and church law; one is a letter from Paul that shows he doesn't know much about the history of the Mediterranean, and one is part of the story of Lot. None of these apparently has anything to do with Muslims (very fundamentalist Muslims are against homosexuality and all Muslims count the Old Testament as one of their holy books.)

So, while I'd like to give you some sort of coherent or thoughtful answer, I didn't find a common theme there to address.

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 08:40 PM

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: Byrd

So, freedom of speech and freedom of religion aren't equal.

If that's true then it's truly scary and freedom of religion is on the chopping block. One of the main reasons we fought to be free of a Monarchy and State Church.

Might want to rethink that. Freedom of religion doesn't just mean Christianity... it means all religions, including Nation of Yahweh, Nuwaubianism, Heaven's Gate (do you remember them?), Order of the 9 Angles (spelling is correct) . Now, granted, YOU might not want their religions (or Muslim sects) to be free to institute whatever practices they want (in 9 Angles, they instruct their members on how to perform a human sacrifice... and they're serious about it) but frankly, I think that their rules are not equal to the law of the land... and hence not equal to our freedom of speech right.

There was a time in our history when the government posing as a church did this exact thing. It's not the church doing it now, but then political ideologies have become religions.

One of the things that squashed the church-government alliance was the Civil Rights movement, where leaders feared that if the Black churches got involved with politics then it could overturn the United States.

What a sad state of affairs when bigots who hate the Gays are head to head with bigots who hate Christians with the governments support. They are the same and they don't even realize it. Both think they are righteous in it.

I suppose those who are themselves bigots who hate people of faith are blind to the fact they are next and our rights are slowly taken away using one excuse or another. Everyone wants to control everyone else. What a dangerous mess this is.

You seem to be conflating "religion" with "Christianity" and possibly only with your version of Christianity (I am assuming that you're not Catholic or Mormon but I could be wrong, here.) But religion is all of these and a lot of non-Christian religions.

And again, I don't think that any religion's freedom should be on equal footing with freedom of speech. Because you shouldn't be able to identify "religion" as (say) The Church of the Subgenius and that this has full protection as freedom of religion -- but nobody else's religion counts.
edit on 24-12-2018 by Byrd because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 09:19 PM
a reply to: Byrd

You would be wrong in your assumptions entirely. When I say freedom of religion, I'm including all religions. I do not include bizarre pseudo religions and cults. Those are confidence games ran by people who know they are not religions and I suspect mostly the people running them are either mentally ill or in it for the money. Mostly for the money, like Scientology a well know confidence game victimizing the mentally ill to get at their money, started by a well know confidence man and no things like that are not a religion.

By your version of things, a Christian Bookstore should be forced to sell non-Christian books or close correct? A Muslim Bookstore? A Jewish Bookstore?

We are talking here about forcing a Christian artist to create art contrary to their faith or be sued out of business with the willing help of the State are we not.

Your assumptions by the way are a bit offensive. I'll leave this conversation then. I have nothing against any real religion or atheists, or for that matter anyone who is Gay or otherwise.

edit on 12/24/2018 by Blaine91555 because: (no reason given)

edit on 12/24/2018 by Blaine91555 because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 24 2018 @ 10:02 PM
a reply to: Blaine91555

It'll be even more surprising to them when they discover that both freedoms are covered in the same amendment, and that same one also lets them rumble around in groups like BLM and ANTIFA.

You can't chop one of those rights without axing the entire amendment.

Of course, they could care less about freedom of speech these days, but they like groups like ANTIFA and BLM, so that might be a bit tougher to give up. Of course without legal access to freedom of speech and religion, the police are firmly enjoined to take over for ANTIFA and BLM.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 12:05 AM
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I've seen enough to know I don't like it, I spent my childhood in an English boarding school that forced us to go to long sermons every Sunday, reading the kids names up on the walls during assembly that died at war after going to the school, the military choppers landing on the ovals, and lastly my sister who runs her own church and is a right wing conservative Christian.

I'm truly sorry, really, no sarcasm, that you had to experience that. It has been my observation that the most anti-religious people are those who were forced to go to services in their youth. There are a lot of people who attend church regularly and yet still do not understand the religion. There are more who do understand the religion and do not attend church regularly (I count myself among those).

Please understand that what you experienced was not the religion I subscribe to. I encouraged my kids to go to church, but I never forced them to go. When they found a church they liked, I went with them to support their decision. I also don't bring religion into every discussion I have. A few months ago, a good friend who I have known well for several years just found out I am a Christian (he is an atheist). We had a long talk about it, because he was genuinely interested. I don't think he had ever met someone who didn't wear it on their sleeve.

On the other hand, those who force others into rebellion are doing the exact opposite of God's work. They may not know it, but they are.

Christianity is about more than just words in some holy book and doing what the preacher says. It is about an honest, close relationship between someone and their Creator. Don't scoff; no one who does not seek that relationship with all of their being will ever know it can even exist. But it can, and does.

That's why freedom of religion is so vital. There is no Bible verse that can be used to determine who believes and who does not. We all have our own relationship with God, and God speaks to us, not as a voice in our heads, but through our hearts. If we did not all listen to the same God, there could be no Christian religion, because we could never agree on anything.

Occasionally, you'll find fools like Westboro Baptist Church... but those are outliers. The Bible even warns about those who follow false gods, while believing they are following the one true God. Most Christians simply want to live in peace and harmony, which is God's desire as well. It's a shame those outliers give everyone a bad name.

The Bible must be read inside that relationship with God, else people will usually get it wrong.


posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 12:32 AM
a reply to: Byrd

I think you make assumptions that are invalid.

When I say religion, yes, I am referring to my Christian religion, but I am also referring to any other organized religion. The right to religion is to believe what one chooses to believe. I have the right to believe that abortion is murder, because I believe that life is as precious and human as my own. I have the right to reject homosexuality in my life. I have the right to say a prayer to God.

There are some churches around here that handle snakes. They believe that if they are pure of heart, the snakes will not bite them. I do not agree with their belief, but I also do not condemn it. I simply avoid it. Now, there are laws here against snake-handling in church, because so many people have died from being bitten. Do people have a religious right to handle snakes? Sure. But they don't have a right to encourage others to engage in a potentially deadly act. That's where the line is. Someone can keep a couple dozen rattlers in a big box at home at take them out and play with them to their heart's content; they cannot tell others to play with them.

In the case of human sacrifice, are the sacrifices sacrificing themselves as part of a true religious belief? If so, they should be allowed, IMO. But if they are coerced in any way, then no, that is not freedom of religion; it is freedom to place others in harm.

But apart from religion, I have a right to refuse service to someone for whatever personal reason I see fit. My time is my own, and no one else's. If I work for someone, I agree to exchange a portion of my time and skill for a specific amount of money. If I run a business, I am investing my time, skill, and money to hopefully make more money. If I run a service business (which is what we are discussing here), I choose to solicit others to pay me for my services. Yet, in none of those circumstances is my time no longer my own. In the case of a job, what I do outside of that job is my own business as long as it does not damage my employer in some way (and here I am talking of coming in with a hangover or distributing confidential information). I can also quit that job and find another more to my liking if needed. In the case of a business, I have not agreed to exchange my time for money until a customer requests it. If I agree, I am committed to complete that service for the agreed compensation; if I refuse, I accept the consequences of losing a customer (and possibly an entire group of customers).

That's the singular difference between freedom and slavery: Who owns one's time? If a person owns their own time, they are free; if someone else, anyone else, owns their time, they are slaves.

I will not be someone's slave. My freedom is precious to me.

I will also not support anyone demanding that they somehow own another's time on demand. I oppose slavery.


posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 12:44 AM

originally posted by: ketsuko

You understand history well enough to know why this is, right?

The freedom of religion is not to removed religion from Government, but to remove Government from religion. Many do not understand this. They feel Government needs to be some form of atheist, and that is not the case. When our forefathers came here they left a country with a state religion and they wanted to free all from that situation with freedom of religion. What this means is there will not be any government sponsored religion, so outside of that we can have all the religion we want, or not want....

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 02:53 AM
a reply to: DBCowboy

Public accommodation? No, accommodate targeted demographics. Plenty of talented business owners will accommodate the LGBTQWHATEVERELSE community and/or a variety of religious groups.

These artists have a right to target bible believing Christians as a demographic, and it would potentially wreck their business to put out work that so clearly challenges their preferred customer's core values.

If a business sought to target the Wiccan or homosexual demographic, then it would be bad business for them to put out work that challenges their values. Even though choice in religion is 100% protected they shouldn't legally be expected to print church fliers with verses regarding witchcraft or homosexuality as sinful.

Most importantly are the religious convictions of the business owners. I know it's a tired point of contention, but it doesn't made it any less true or relevant. One cannot tread on someone's rights I offer to establish his own. Gay themed and/or friendly businesses are not illegal. Go use one of them for your purposes. Everyone's rights are intact; problem solved.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 06:13 AM
a reply to: DBCowboy

No they shouldn't be forced. Its shouldn't even be a question. What this demonstrates is a strong sort of reverse discrimination and state sponsored force on the conscience. Its 1984 sort of crap and major hypocrisy.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 06:23 AM

originally posted by: filthyphilanthropist
a reply to: DBCowboy

Most importantly are the religious convictions of the business owners. I know it's a tired point of contention, but it doesn't made it any less true or relevant. One cannot tread on someone's rights I offer to establish his own. Gay themed and/or friendly businesses are not illegal. Go use one of them for your purposes. Everyone's rights are intact; problem solved.

This clearly demonstrates an effort that goes well beyond respect for diverse thinking......a concept we hear out of the mouth of the offensive projectors at a steady pace for 20 years. But cases like this simply illustrates that they don't mean what others mean when they say "promote diversity" and/or they really don't understand what they are talking about when they project the idea. I chose to see them for what they are and what they sell....violators of the rights of others all the while oppressing under the flag of human rights.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 06:28 AM
a reply to: TheRedneck

No doubt my childhood experiences shaped my worldview, we are all complex beings that have many nuances.

The message that Jesus was trying to portray is rarely upheld, I've only met a few people in my life that I would consider to be real Christians, which is a shame because his message was one worth sharing.

I was unfortunate to be given a conscience in this world of thugs and thieves, religion has been hijacked and is used for profit and gain and worse an excuse to do vile things , and it's entirely possible this has contaminated my views to the point of blindness.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 07:33 AM
a reply to: Xtrozero

No freedom of religion exists because most of the original people who came to this land came because government was busy telling them what religion they had to be, how they had to believe, jailing and persecuting them for believing the wrong way ... sort of like this.

If you truly believed that government should be absent belief, then government ought not be in the business of defining marriage at all. At most, it should offer legalities to those who can prove they are married in some way, or contracts to two people who are committed to one another or who intend to be committed, but even at that level, it would be defining a marriage since our Muslim friends do not define marriage as a contract of only two persons, one man and one woman, but rather often one man and more than one woman.

And this is why the battle was always over the meaning of the word. If the government could be brought to bear on its definition for legal purposes, then government could absolutely be brought to bear on religious belief in multiple arenas like it is now and we are having this discussion. This is more of a discussion now that the fashion is to accommodate the victims at every level in every possible way. It seems that the needs of the many are indeed jettisoned for the one or the tiny few so we don't make them feel bad. In today's world, the Enterprise would never escape Khan because we absolutely could not allow Spock to die in that radiation chamber ... It would be oppressive to the Vulcan minority and make him feel bad!

I am no longer free to hold my belief on what a marriage is because the government has defined it otherwise regardless of belief and for me to live that belief can very much put me afoul of the law.
edit on 25-12-2018 by ketsuko because: (no reason given)

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 08:46 AM
a reply to: DBCowboy

That's crap. It's their business if they refuse to do their artwork for whoever for whatever reason that's nobody's but their decision.
Who would go to court because of this? Oh right "discrimination". The thing is I would hate to lose the freedom to choose who gets a nice painting or whatever I made from the bottom of my heart. Isn't it so much better to find a better place who comes up with some real magic because they really see the magic of love?
They could have just taken the money and produce some real #. Who'd have won then?
That's wrong.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 10:17 AM

originally posted by: RickinVa

originally posted by: Lumenari

originally posted by: RickinVa
If a company doesn't want my business, for whatever reason....

I would simply find a different company to spend my money at.

But that's just me.

True, but I'm going to assume that you currently are not a big part of the War on Christians.

And for the record, not a Christian here.

Just pointing out the obvious slant the left has on anyone Christian.

Not religious by any means.

I believe ALL organized religion is a scam.

Personal religious beliefs are another matter, and are up to the individual.

At the end, if your positive actions in life outweigh the negative actions, you will get where you need to go on your next journey.

An odd point of view...all personal religious beliefs come from organized religion.

You have been had like the others.

posted on Dec, 25 2018 @ 10:28 AM
Unless a person not doing calligraphy, or baking you a cake makes your head literally explode, go somewhere #ing else.

It's hypocritical and selfish. It really is.

You must respect my rights and what I want, while I will destroy you over yours.

People are shooting themselves, and those they share a label with, right in the foot.

This is exactly how you get people offside to your cause. You ask for support and equality and you get it, but then folks have to then demand more, demand special treatment. Start forcing you to meet their demands and agree with their views and opinions at the cost of your own or else.

These people waving their 'card' every time they don't get their own way makes a joke of personal freedoms and human rights.
It is the very definition of abusing privilege.

Who cares if these women's art style is not religious? Their beliefs are.

It's not about the service they provide, it's about forcing them to do something they do not want to do and makes them uncomfortable.
It's taking away their personal liberties for adhering to their faith for the sake of someones materialistic desires.

I go to a bakers and the gay baker won't make me a wedding cake because I'm a 'breeder', regardless of what is motivating that mindset, will I go to the media and cry about it?
Will I destroy that gay baker over it and send him bankrupt?
Will I force him to bend to my will by abusing laws designed to protect me?

I say no problems, walk out the store and look for another baker who will make my 'breeder' wedding cake and everyone's life goes on.

Just as I wouldn't go to Afghanistan and scream in the middle of busy public street that everyone should speak #ing English while guzzling a litre of scotch.
And wouldn't complain about Americans and how #ty the U.S is after I CHOSE to fly there.

These damn child adults need to grow up and learn some personal responsibility. Not because they're gay, or black, or female, or trans, or Muslim, or Jewish etc etc etc. but because they are juveile A-Holes holding their 'people' back.
Lifes hard, # doesn't always go your way.


But most of us just get the hell on with it and move on. You gotta make some sacrifices for a society made up of a few million different personalities to function. We all gotta give and take.

I don't walk down the street naked. Because I know I can't in a society where the majority does not want to see my glorious junk.
I make the compromise, not society, because I can get naked at home in private and I can go to a nudist beach.

Would those against these artists or that baker being able to say no sale, support me if I go to shops nude and they refuse to sell to me because I offend them?

Will you protect my rights?

Seriously it's becoming a joke. And it's as always a few greasy wheels making a noise, begging for the grease.

How about people just be adults, and act like civilized human beings. You don't like or agree with something walk away. Don't poke it with a stick and make a bigger mess.
Isn't this the kind of thing we are meant to learn as we grow up?

In my business I reject work all the time. Middle aged black, white, Asian women, straight men, gay men. you name it I have it as a client but also tell it no sale all the time.

Usually it's because I don't like their personality. Cannot work with them. They won't listen to my advice. They swear constantly and it offends me. Heck one was because she kept making sexual advances.

Nothing to do with their gender, colour, religion, species or whatever, I just don't like their personalities and refuse to work for them.

How does that differ from turning down work from them based on a specific personality or physical trait?

Even if you agree I should not have to deal with someone abusive and harassing, (and isn't suing someone to make them be a slave harassment?) am I not discriminating against them regardless of the reasoning of why I am?

Where the hell do we draw a line?

When do your rights, needs and wants outweigh mine?

Feel like we're going around in circles here. Boggles the mind that this is even a subject matter for mature, rational, logical, adult humans? The answers are pretty clear.

pfffft. someone won't make you cake, someone won't scribble on paper like you want them too?
Ya got it soooooooo bad. Your life is over.

Nah seriously, go live in the middle East etc. and swim in a minefield while covering up or get caned or worse.
Then come tell us how goddamn #ing awful it is that some sentient independent thinking feeling human just like you won't write your name.

I was born! and my life is mediocre, the world owes me..... Boo #ing hoo.

Now excuse me I have women's toilets to go urinate in.
Because my emotions and identity as a man in a dress are more important than the fragile psyche of a 6 year old girl.

Mankind's evolving for sure. To #ing infinity and beyond!

edit on 25-12-2018 by AtomicKangaroo because: edity edits

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