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Are All People on Earth in Crisis because State and Religion are not truly Separated???

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posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 12:08 PM
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originally posted by: dawnstar
a reply to: toms54

lawmakers being influence by their religious convictions is a far cry from lawmakers writing laws that require those who do not have those same convictions to forfeit their rights. and if a governmental body allows on group to express their religious beliefs on public property, are they treating all religions equally if they do not allow other groups to do the same?
I think so, otherwise, how are they not sponsoring one religion over the others???




The Ten Commandments were put in our courts because our laws were influenced by them. The Congressmen, Senators, and Justices who served in the government at that time were Christians elected by a Christian populace to set up a rule of law that was influenced by Christianity.

No you aren't forced to be Christian. Such is the tolerance of our rule of law.

That doesn't mean every faith gets to have equal representation. No part of our Constitution grants equal representation of all faiths in our government. The 1st grants freedom of expression and prohibits the establishment of a state religion.

That means you're not forced into a religion. That doesn't mean you get to tear down the Christian roots of this country.

"But the commandments are on state property means it's a state religion" is just YOUR opinion, and that opinion is factually incorrect. You're interpreting things into a twisted worldview where all the Christians of the world are a problem in society and trying to oppress you.

Christians built that society, and you are in fact oppressing them every time you tear down a cross, a statue, erase a phrase, or remove the ten commandments.

It's historical revisionism, which is vandalism and evil.

You don't get a safe space, you're not entitled to feel comfortable, and if you don't like this country as it was founded and intended to be, please leave.




posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: dawnstar

The US was founded to secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity. They all shared common convictions for example, murder is wrong. So are we supposed to allow murder because some Satanist or anarchist is against that law? Should psychopaths have equal rights based upon their concept of right and wrong?

How about Islamic honor killings, amputation of the hands for theft? Should we allow 11 year old child brides to be sold? I am not trying to be funny, how far would you take this? Some parts of the world still have slavery. Some places still practice cannibalism as a funeral rite. They eat their dead relatives. It is their religion.

"If a governmental body allows on group to express their religious beliefs on public property, are they treating all religions equally if they do not allow other groups to do the same?" I see your point. What if everyone is permitted?

What we have going on today is taken to an extreme. Say a church donates a park bench with a plaque that says donated by such and such church. Why must we remove that? Even if every church in town can't put a bench in the same place, they could put benches in other places. Why? Does it offend the atheist? They all claim atheism isn't a religion so how are their rights violated? It offends me to force the bench's removal. My rights count as much as theirs.



posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: peskyhumans




The Ten Commandments were put in our courts because our laws were influenced by them. The Congressmen, Senators, and Justices who served in the government at that time were Christians elected by a Christian populace to set up a rule of law that was influenced by Christianity.


I really don't have anything against statues, at least I don't feel so strongly for or against them to get riled up over them..
I do find the "in god we trust" at little ironic though in today's society where it seems that so many have money as their god.
and interesting fact as far as the pledge...




In 1923, the words, "the Flag of the United States of America" were added. At this time it read:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America and to the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

In 1954, in response to the Communist threat of the times, President Eisenhower encouraged Congress to add the words "under God," creating the 31-word pledge we say today. Bellamy's daughter objected to this alteration. Today it reads:

"I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America, and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all."

www.ushistory.org...


can't help but feel that those ten commandments are also there to mesh god in with patriotism in order to give more credibility to their stance of war.

but, like I said, statues don't bother me..
it's when SOME CHRISTIANS, use their religion to try to restrict the rights of others. when they complain that they can't bake a cake for a gay couple, when they refuse to do a medically necessary abortion for a women at risk of dying. when a teacher sends a child out to the hallway because he refuses to bow his head in a lead morning prayer. when "god tells them " to leave a handicapped women on the side of the road in her no longer functioning car. things like that.

christians weren't like that in earlier times. heck if they were, the eastern native american tribes would probably be much better off since considering just how they were viewed as heathen pagans well, they wouldn't have gotten conned to sell their lands for a bunch of cheap beads because well, they might have used those beads to decorate themselves with while they worshipped their gods!!!




Christians built that society, and you are in fact oppressing them every time you tear down a cross, a statue, erase a phrase, or remove the ten commandments.





(2 Timothy 1:6-12)

16Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves. 17But beware of men: for they will deliver you up to the councils, and they will scourge you in their synagogues; 18And ye shall be brought before governors and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them and the Gentiles. 19But when they deliver you up, take no thought how or what ye shall speak: for it shall be given you in that same hour what ye shall speak. 20For it is not ye that speak, but the Spirit of your Father which speaketh in you.

21And the brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death. 22And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

23But when they persecute you in this city, flee ye into another: for verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come.

24The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. 25It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If they have called the master of the house Beelzebub, how much more shall they call them of his household?



want to try that oh poor persecuted and oppressed christian bit again?? it seems to fall rather flat considering what real christians have endured through the last couple thousand years or so have gone through!!!




It's historical revisionism, which is vandalism and evil.


oh, I am sure all those "pagan" cultures that church has encounters throughout it's history, the gnostics, the druids, the native americans, and on and on would agree whole heartedly with that statement!!




You don't get a safe space, you're not entitled to feel comfortable, and if you don't like this country as it was founded and intended to be, please leave.



and neither do you!! and I don't know if I would like this country as it was founded, because that country is gone!! it grew, it changed, long before I was born. I know that many of those changes were for the better, there is no more slavery, laborers have rights and better working conditions, women have some rights!!! There is one thing I am pretty sure of, our founders could have never envisioned what this country has become and more than likely in many ways, it's not like they intended!!! heck, they might say that it was better if they were around, who knows!



posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 01:32 PM
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a reply to: toms54


we each have the right to life, don't we? isn't that enough to prevent honor killings? by granting all equal rights we take care of most of those weird religious practices you mention, don't we? all except the cannibalistic funeral rite...
my problem is that if we grant "special privileges" to christians at the expense of other groups, then if those christians ever become the minority and we find ourselves with a majority holding a religion that is practicing child brides, burn the heretics, take the adultress out to the desert and bury her in sand up to her head, whatever....
our protections will have been wiped away by those christians who just had to have those what I really deems as rather meaningless "special privileges"



posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 01:55 PM
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a reply to: dawnstar

As far as I can tell, the right to life is not enough to prevent honor killings amongst those that practice Sharia law.

What kind of "special privileges" to Christians at the expense of other groups are you talking about here? If this "burn the heretics, take the adultress out to the desert and bury her in sand up to her head" crowd does take over, what's to stop them from changing the constitution? Look what the Jews have done. Our culture has changed quite a lot since the 60's.



posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 02:32 PM
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a reply to: toms54




As far as I can tell, the right to life is not enough to prevent honor killings amongst those that practice Sharia law.



it doesn't protect their right to does it?? if it happens in this country, what happens to the person doing the killing?? why, they get arrested and jailed for murder!!! and, my guess is that there's been more jewish holocaust survivors gunned down while they were worshiping in their synagogue this year by far right lunatics than there has been people killed via honor killings this year. the lunatics are treated the same weather they or islamic honor killers or not... arrest when found, and thrown in prison when convicted. considering my location and lifestyle, I would have to say that I am more likely to get killed by a hunter's stray bullet as a deer walked past my window than I do of either of those things happening to me!!!

what's to stop them from changing the constitution? it's kind of difficult to do?? look how many times they've presented different forms of the ERA, still ain't got that one!!
and yes, our culture has changed quite a bit since the 60's!! but, let me tell you something right here and now....
it wasn't that grand paradise that so many seem to want to portray it as being!!! I was there then, were you??



posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 04:11 PM
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a reply to: dawnstar

It appears that I have inadvertently offended you. My apologies.
Perhaps the people that support different forms of the ERA are not in the majority despite what the people that comprise whatever echo chamber you surround yourself with tell you.

Honor killings are only prosecuted to the extent to which these cases are solved. People that support the concept are not going to testify against their own family. There are many unsolved murders, maybe 50%. The more people there are that subscribe to this, the worse it will get.

BTW, yes. I was there in the 60's.
edit on 21-12-2018 by toms54 because: because I felt like doing it! OK?



posted on Dec, 21 2018 @ 04:27 PM
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originally posted by: peskyhumans


originally posted by: Woodcarver

originally posted by: peskyhumans

originally posted by: Woodcarver
a reply to: peskyhumans

Which of those “christian values” made it into our constitution?

Are you saying that those who signed the constitution or the bill of rights were all christians? Or that they were atheists?

I think you don’t know much about the creation of our country


The equality of all men before God is a Christian concept which is very present in our Constitution. The Constitution itself, a document that is above the legislation of man which extends inalienable rights to our citizenry, expresses the concept of a higher law that man cannot touch. Of course that doesn't stop corrupt government from wiping it's ass with it.

The vast majority of our founding fathers were Christian. A mix of Episcopalian, Presbyterian, Congregationalist, Quaker, Lutheran, Catholic, Huguenot, Methodist, Calvinist, and Puritan. Among others. There is a modern day attempt to rewrite our history by describing the founders as "Deists". Which they were, but that's an over-generalization. They were specifically Christian Protestants. Only a small handful were Catholic, and the vast majority of the settlers came to North America to escape religious persecution at the hands of the Catholic Church.

Why are you so argumentative? It's pretty clear from my first post that I said the USA was founded on Christian values and today is being destroyed by atheists. I know enough about the creation of our country.
God is not solely a christian concept, and many of the signers were adamantly against christianity, or at least, the divinity of jesus.

They were definitely against the country being lead by christian values. The whole point of America was to take the religion out of the establishment and create a secular government which leads by reason and logic.

But we all know this.

The

Look up Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Paine, Andrew Jackson, john Adams, Thomas Jefferson




”The government of the United States is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.”

John Adams



Or this one


The day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus by the Supreme Being in the womb of a virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. ... But we may hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with all this artificial scaffolding....

Thomas Jefferson


And another


As to Jesus of Nazareth, my Opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the System of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupt changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some Doubts as to his divinity; tho' it is a question I do not dogmatize upon, having never studied it, and I think it needless to busy myself with it now, when I expect soon an Opportunity of knowing the Truth with less Trouble...." (Carl Van Doren. Benjamin Franklin. New York: The Viking Press, 1938, p. 777.)
He died just over a month later on April 17.


You are cherry-picking a handful of quotes from letters they wrote to non-Christians. There is a vast swath of literature from the founders that make it clear they firmly established our nation on Christian principles.


“Statesmen, my dear Sir, plan and speculate for Liberty but it is Religion and Morality alone, which can establish the Principles upon which Freedom securely stand.” (Letter to Zabdiel Adams, June 21, 1776)

-John Adams


“I answer, the general principles of Christianity, in which all those sects were united, and the general principles of English and American liberty, in which all these young men united, and which united all parties in America, in majorities sufficient to assert and maintain her independence. Now I will avow, that I then believed and now believe that these general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God; and that those principles of liberty are as unalterable as human nature and our terrestrial mundane system.” (Letter to Jefferson, June 28, 1813, in The Works of John Adams Second President of the United States, Vol. 10, 45-56)

-John Adams


“We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry, would break the strongest cords of our Constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” (Message to Massachusetts’ military officers, October 11, 1798)

-John Adams


"I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ." --The Writings of Thomas Jefferson, p. 385.

-Thomas Jefferson


We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

-Declaration of Independence, signed by Thomas Jefferson


“Of all the systems of morality, ancient or modern, which have come under my observation, none appear to me so pure as that of Jesus.” --to William Canby, Sept. 18, 1813

-Thomas Jefferson


In 1779, as governor of Virginia, Thomas Jefferson signed a proclamation appointing a Day of Thanksgiving and Prayer: “Whereas … Congress … hath thought proper … to recommend to the several States … humbly to approach the throne of Almighty God … that he hath … been a shield to our troops in the hour of danger, pointed their swords to victory … and above all, that he hath diffused the glorious light of the Gospel, whereby, through the merits of our gracious Redeemer, we may become the heirs of his eternal glory


Thomas Jefferson also organized a Calvinist church in 1777 at Charlottesville.

Take your revisionist bull# and kindly shove it back up your ass.
Maybe they just said that to the christians? It seems we have contradictory quotes. Maybe they were all just lieing politicians? A far more likely scenario.







 
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