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Trump appears to back down from demanding wall funding from congress

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posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:22 PM
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a reply to: narrator

And the actual government numbers show in fact non citizens actually commit far more crime than citizens


A new report on federal convictions reveals that nearly half were committed by “non-citizens,” with most likely to be illegal immigrants.

The U.S. Sentencing Commission, reviewing data from 2011-2016, said that 44.2 percent of those convicted of violating a federal law were “non-citizens.”

...

Areas where non-citizens account for a much larger share of convictions than their 8.4 percent share of the adult population include:

42.4 percent of kidnapping convictions.
31.5 percent of drug convictions.
22.9 percent of money laundering convictions.
13.4 percent of administration of justice offenses (e.g. witness tampering, obstruction, and contempt).
17.8 percent of economic crimes (e.g. larceny, embezzlement, and fraud).
13 percent of other convictions (e.g. bribery, civil rights, environmental, and prison offenses).
12.8 percent of auto thefts.



www.google.com...=true

Again, this is just one small part of why illegal immigration is bad

But it’s funny so many people try to make it seem like illegals are better than citizens and committ less crime, when the opposite is true




posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:23 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Then cavity searches are irrelevant to this conversation. That is not what all average americans go through. I'm an average american, I've never had a cavity search. Neither has anyone in my family.

How is the study I cited irrelevant? Show studies on who commits crime if my study is garbage. The study I cited specifically says that per 100,000 people of each type of population, people that were born here commit more crime than people who immigrated here. That's very relevant to my argument. Of course we're allowed to look at it: Post a study reflecting your viewpoint rather than just saying mine is wrong.

Putting thousands of troops on our border, where they have no business being, isn't the answer. In my opinion, neither is the wall. America already has a giant problem with spending, why spend that much on something before we try other options?

Bottom line:

Will the wall stop some illegals? Of course.
Will it stop all of them? Of course not.
Is it the best option? No one knows. I don't think so.
Is it the most fiscally conservative option? Not by a long shot. (Let's try those first).

If we're talking about the same wall, the Israel border wall is 440 miles long. It isn't even in the same ballpark as our border.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:24 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

Again, who has said that illegal immigrants are "better" than American citizens? I've never seen that argument before. I certainly don't think that.

However, I don't think we're better than anyone either. People are equal. Regardless of where they're from.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:27 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: narrator

And the actual government numbers show in fact non citizens actually commit far more crime than citizens


A new report on federal convictions reveals that nearly half were committed by “non-citizens,” with most likely to be illegal immigrants.

The U.S. Sentencing Commission, reviewing data from 2011-2016, said that 44.2 percent of those convicted of violating a federal law were “non-citizens.”

...

Areas where non-citizens account for a much larger share of convictions than their 8.4 percent share of the adult population include:

42.4 percent of kidnapping convictions.
31.5 percent of drug convictions.
22.9 percent of money laundering convictions.
13.4 percent of administration of justice offenses (e.g. witness tampering, obstruction, and contempt).
17.8 percent of economic crimes (e.g. larceny, embezzlement, and fraud).
13 percent of other convictions (e.g. bribery, civil rights, environmental, and prison offenses).
12.8 percent of auto thefts.



www.google.com...=true

Again, this is just one small part of why illegal immigration is bad

But it’s funny so many people try to make it seem like illegals are better than citizens and committ less crime, when the opposite is true


What you just posted says that "nearly half" of crime was committed by non-citizens. Did all of those non-citizens come across our border with Mexico? I seriously doubt that.
And if not, that's sort of irrelevant. We're discussing shutting down our border with Mexico.

Yes, illegal immigration from everywhere needs to be taken care of, but you can't use ALL illegal immigrants when arguing about the border wall.

ETA: Therefore, there are better solutions to illegal immigration than the wall. The wall only fixes 1 side of a 4-sided issue.
edit on 18-12-2018 by narrator because: eta



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:29 PM
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a reply to: narrator

I said Americans basically go thru a cavity search

I was obviously exaggerating the very real invasions of privacy we are asked to go thru. Glad you are hung up on it though

Your study is garbage because it’s inaccurate according to the actual government numbers

It looked at a small sample for state crimes in a few states

I posted the actual government figures

Troops would be neyyuserved protecting our border than policing the world

The wall is relatively inexpensive and has shown to work in other countries. We have a bigger border, well we would also have a bigger wall

You haven’t provided any cheaper plans that may solve

I say do both other plans such as going after illegal employers, and build the wall

But downplaying the problem of over 20 million illegals and saying we should avoid the first real attempt at a solution advocated by a major politician is more of the same that will lead to millions more illegals, and more homelessness, decreased wages , drug problems that you outlined as important

It will also lead to more caravans were children are kidnapped, women are raped, and people are murdered



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:30 PM
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originally posted by: links234
I was told Mexico would be paying for the wall...

Did Mexico pay us yet?


No no.... the new trade agreement between the US and Mexico will basically be Mexico paying for the wall.
according to the donald...
www.factcheck.org...


I often stated, “One way or the other, Mexico is going to pay for the Wall.” This has never changed. Our new deal with Mexico (and Canada), the USMCA, is so much better than the old, very costly & anti-USA NAFTA deal, that just by the money we save, MEXICO IS PAYING FOR THE WALL!



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:32 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

20 million? The biggest number I've seen given is 12.2 million, and now it's around 10.7 million. Where's the 20 million figure come from?



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:34 PM
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originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Grambler

Again, who has said that illegal immigrants are "better" than American citizens? I've never seen that argument before. I certainly don't think that.

However, I don't think we're better than anyone either. People are equal. Regardless of where they're from.


You citing studies that they committ less crime than Americans (which is wrong) is making the argument that in that area, they are better

And yes you have seen that argument

“Illegals do the jobs that Americans refuse to do! They committ less crime as well”

My study is far more comprehensive than yours, and says the bulk of those numbers is from illegals that came from Mexico , though seeing as how those specific demographics are not kept, we can’t get exact numbers

You call out this study, yet use a much smaller study that also surely you would admit is unable to truly track all of these demographics

I will trust the comprehensive government numbers over smaller cherry picked studies by ideological proponents of basically open borders



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:38 PM
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originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Grambler

20 million? The biggest number I've seen given is 12.2 million, and now it's around 10.7 million. Where's the 20 million figure come from?



The U.S. government and most groups put the number of undocumented immigrants at around 11 million to 12 million, but researchers from Yale and MIT give a “conservative” number of 16. 7 million in 2016 and an average of 22 million, according to Yale Insights.

Bloomberg reported the study could validate claims made by President Trump that the real number on undocumented immigrants in the country is as high as 30 million and could offer ammunition for the president and immigration critics to take a harder stance on the issue.
...

“There’s a number that everybody quotes," Feinstein said, "but when you actually dig down and say, ‘What is it based on?,’ you find it’s based on one very specific survey and possibly an approach that has some difficulties. So we went in and just took a very different approach


www.google.com...



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:39 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: narrator

I said Americans basically go thru a cavity search

I was obviously exaggerating the very real invasions of privacy we are asked to go thru. Glad you are hung up on it though

Your study is garbage because it’s inaccurate according to the actual government numbers

It looked at a small sample for state crimes in a few states

I posted the actual government figures

Troops would be neyyuserved protecting our border than policing the world

The wall is relatively inexpensive and has shown to work in other countries. We have a bigger border, well we would also have a bigger wall

You haven’t provided any cheaper plans that may solve

I say do both other plans such as going after illegal employers, and build the wall

But downplaying the problem of over 20 million illegals and saying we should avoid the first real attempt at a solution advocated by a major politician is more of the same that will lead to millions more illegals, and more homelessness, decreased wages , drug problems that you outlined as important

It will also lead to more caravans were children are kidnapped, women are raped, and people are murdered


Cheaper plan idea #1: Reform immigration policy so it doesn't take YEARS for someone who wants to become a citizen the legal way to actually become a citizen. That'll cut down on illegal immigration for sure.

We have all of those problems without any immigrants. The opioid problem isn't born out of Mexico, our doctors are doing just fine causing the epidemic. You can't blame immigrants for that issue. Will a small percentage of them make it a little worse? Sure. But, it's already horrible. Fix the problem here.
Our government is doing just fine with inflation, cost of living increasing, etc. Immigrants cause a drop in the bucket in that realm. If anything, they're negatively affected by that too, and some of them are probably homeless here. Make living here more affordable, then citizens will be able to take the jobs that illegals currently do, because they'll be able to afford to live on those crap wages.
Children are kidnapped, people are raped, and people are murdered every day here in the good ol' US of A. Don't make the caravan out to be so much worse than here because those crimes happen. Yes, those crimes are horrible. But, immigrants aren't the only people doing it, Americans are darn good at it too. That's a fear-mongering narrative if I've ever heard one.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:40 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Grambler

20 million? The biggest number I've seen given is 12.2 million, and now it's around 10.7 million. Where's the 20 million figure come from?



The U.S. government and most groups put the number of undocumented immigrants at around 11 million to 12 million, but researchers from Yale and MIT give a “conservative” number of 16. 7 million in 2016 and an average of 22 million, according to Yale Insights.

Bloomberg reported the study could validate claims made by President Trump that the real number on undocumented immigrants in the country is as high as 30 million and could offer ammunition for the president and immigration critics to take a harder stance on the issue.
...

“There’s a number that everybody quotes," Feinstein said, "but when you actually dig down and say, ‘What is it based on?,’ you find it’s based on one very specific survey and possibly an approach that has some difficulties. So we went in and just took a very different approach


www.google.com...


So, FOX provides those numbers? Figures.

www.pewresearch.org...



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:42 PM
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originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Arnie123

"won't back down until the American people are safe".

You truly feel that illegal immigrants are the number one factor in making Americans unsafe right now?
What about the millions of American criminals who were born and raised here?
What about the opioid crisis taking over the country?
What about rampant inflation and cost of living increases that are forcing thousands of people onto the streets?

There are SO many better issues for the government to focus on than building a wall.
I'm sorry, are you incapable of envisioning a multiple front? Everything you listed should have been taken cared off or at least investigated the warnings long before Trump and NOW you have an issue with it because, muah, Orange man? Don't be ridiculous.

Every issue listed will be looked at thanks to this Presidency, as previous were futile in that endeavor. Will he be successful? Who know, but as a supporter, I go all in.

I understand Trumps perspective on this, illegal immigration isn't the issue perse, more so the system in place. The numbers don't lie, we need to "button up" the border, focus more domestically as you listed. I'm of the opinion that it should start there.

Before you pour the milk, you gotta seal the holes 😌



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:43 PM
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originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Grambler

20 million? The biggest number I've seen given is 12.2 million, and now it's around 10.7 million. Where's the 20 million figure come from?



The U.S. government and most groups put the number of undocumented immigrants at around 11 million to 12 million, but researchers from Yale and MIT give a “conservative” number of 16. 7 million in 2016 and an average of 22 million, according to Yale Insights.

Bloomberg reported the study could validate claims made by President Trump that the real number on undocumented immigrants in the country is as high as 30 million and could offer ammunition for the president and immigration critics to take a harder stance on the issue.
...

“There’s a number that everybody quotes," Feinstein said, "but when you actually dig down and say, ‘What is it based on?,’ you find it’s based on one very specific survey and possibly an approach that has some difficulties. So we went in and just took a very different approach


www.google.com...


So, FOX provides those numbers? Figures.

www.pewresearch.org...


Oh you are one of those people

So because fox reported on a Yale study, it must be wrong

as I suspected, you are not interested in a serious conversation

Thanks for outing yourself!
edit on 18-12-2018 by Grambler because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:48 PM
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a reply to: narrator

So your proposed solution to solve illegal immigration is to just make it easier for them to come legally?

Hahaha! Yep that will solve everything!

How can we stop bank robbers? Make it easier for them to get money!

What makes you think once we make it easier for legal immigrants, the ones that don’t get in still won’t come illegally?

How many legal immigrants are we going to take under this new easier system? Unlimited? I assume not.

So once we reach the number you are fine with, we are right back to the beginning, where illegals will want to come in.

Of course there are other contributing factors to all sorts of other problems

That’s why the USA governments role is to make policies to help its citizens, not people from other countries

And so that should be the focus, which means keeping our border secured to help stop exacerbating those problems



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: narrator

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: narrator
a reply to: Grambler

20 million? The biggest number I've seen given is 12.2 million, and now it's around 10.7 million. Where's the 20 million figure come from?



The U.S. government and most groups put the number of undocumented immigrants at around 11 million to 12 million, but researchers from Yale and MIT give a “conservative” number of 16. 7 million in 2016 and an average of 22 million, according to Yale Insights.

Bloomberg reported the study could validate claims made by President Trump that the real number on undocumented immigrants in the country is as high as 30 million and could offer ammunition for the president and immigration critics to take a harder stance on the issue.
...

“There’s a number that everybody quotes," Feinstein said, "but when you actually dig down and say, ‘What is it based on?,’ you find it’s based on one very specific survey and possibly an approach that has some difficulties. So we went in and just took a very different approach


www.google.com...


So, FOX provides those numbers? Figures.

www.pewresearch.org...


Oh you are one of those people

So because fox reported on a Yale study, it must be wrong
Mueller, as I suspected, you are not interested in a serious conversation

Thanks for outing yourself!


So, why is the Yale study reporting such a higher number? Because circular flow rate isn't accounted for. They count every single crossing as an individual event. That means, people crossing multiple times are counted multiple times in this survey. So even though it's 1 person, they may have been counted 2, 3, 7, whatever many times. Hence why it's 11 million people higher than pretty much all other studies.

Why didn't you link the study directly, and instead linked FOX? If who the study came from is so important to you, link the actual study.

There are a lot of studies, both liberal and conservative, as well as several from our government, that put the number somewhere between 10 and 12 million. Why should I believe a single outlier study, that skips over a very important detail in flow rate?
edit on 18-12-2018 by narrator because: eta



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:57 PM
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originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: narrator

So your proposed solution to solve illegal immigration is to just make it easier for them to come legally?

Hahaha! Yep that will solve everything!

How can we stop bank robbers? Make it easier for them to get money!

What makes you think once we make it easier for legal immigrants, the ones that don’t get in still won’t come illegally?

How many legal immigrants are we going to take under this new easier system? Unlimited? I assume not.

So once we reach the number you are fine with, we are right back to the beginning, where illegals will want to come in.

Of course there are other contributing factors to all sorts of other problems

That’s why the USA governments role is to make policies to help its citizens, not people from other countries

And so that should be the focus, which means keeping our border secured to help stop exacerbating those problems



I think we've come to a point where your sarcasm is outweighing good debate. You're putting too many words in my mouth, and it's starting to irritate me. 95% of what you just wrote is patently not what I said, but you're construing it as such. I'm going to bow out.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 02:01 PM
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a reply to: narrator

I linked fox because it’s a study I have read and that was the first webpage that came up when I linked it

You have shown your true colors, trying to disregard the study based on a site that linked it

The study I linked discussed their methodology

They discuss the problems in the other studies that all use data from the census which has many problems

The actual number isn’t that important to the issue

It is a problem that is serious and hasn’t been addressed by either side in congress

The wall is at least an attempt, one I think that although not perfect will be beneficial enough to be worth the cost



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 02:03 PM
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a reply to: narrator

A shame you are bowing out

You were so serious in arguing in good faith, even outright dismissing a Yale study because Fox News linked it

I didn’t say you said those things

I asked questions, and implied your solution would be in effective



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 02:04 PM
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Trump appears to back down from demanding wall funding from congress



Why does trump even need funding from congress when the Mexicans are going to pay for it. That's what he said, right?

he don't lie....



edit on 18-12-2018 by olaru12 because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 02:08 PM
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a reply to: Grambler

I for one am not shocked, he was never gonna build a wall, he said it was gonna go up "so fast", he obviously meant so fast you can't see it...



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