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What is a worse investment, universal healthcare or universal retirement?

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posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:12 AM
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originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
a reply to: Edumakated

I agree that both are frauds. But if I had to choose one I would rather it be healthcare because of the immediate benefits to me.

I agree our government can screw up boiling water but there are plenty of countries out there with great universal healthcare programs that work. Why couldn't we model ours from one of theirs or all of them?


It is debatable if the countries with universal healthcare are really any better. The big issue is that it is an apples and oranges comparison. Most of the countries with universal healthcare have small and homogeneous populations. They also do not have the other major expenses that we have the US like our military. They have stricter immigration policies. Higher taxes. Etc.



I live in canada....I have universal healthcare. My country is nothing like what you just described. In fact the opposite of several of those points and the points you made in your post above.

Being in america terrifies me because the idea of hurting myself in america is horrifying.

All I know is. I pay $100 a month or so...a bit less...and I can go to any doctor i want any time for any reason and never worry or a pay a dime and it's #ing great.


edit on 18/12/2018 by dug88 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:16 AM
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a reply to: dug88

www.forbes.com...




Canada's single-payer healthcare system forced over 1 million patients to wait for necessary medical treatments last year. That's an all-time record.


Why Canadians Are Increasingly Seeking Medical Treatment Abroad
www.huffpost.com...
No Thanks!
edit on 18-12-2018 by JAGStorm because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:21 AM
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I disagree with the premise of the OP. I think universal healthcare would only be harmful to us, but I think we should all have universal retirement. The problem I have with social security is that it isn't good enough. It should be available earlier and should pay out more.

Saving for retirement? Any IRA you take out will only end up paying out a limited amount of money. The problem I have with it is even if I invested 10% of my income for 30 years, how do I know the lump sum I get will last me the remainder of my life when I retire? No one knows how long they're going to live. That money could run out.

That's why I made sure to get a state job that earns a pension. I want a constant income when I retire. I also have an IRA, but that lump sum is just candy. I know it's not going to last.

If you are so old you can't work, you NEED an income to live.

Healthcare? If I have an accident or catch a disease and end up on my death bed, that falls under "# happens". Which is why I see healthcare as a want and retirement income as a need. Not everyone needs healthcare, everyone needs an income.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:23 AM
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originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
a reply to: Edumakated

I agree that both are frauds. But if I had to choose one I would rather it be healthcare because of the immediate benefits to me.

I agree our government can screw up boiling water but there are plenty of countries out there with great universal healthcare programs that work. Why couldn't we model ours from one of theirs or all of them?


It is debatable if the countries with universal healthcare are really any better. The big issue is that it is an apples and oranges comparison. Most of the countries with universal healthcare have small and homogeneous populations. They also do not have the other major expenses that we have the US like our military. They have stricter immigration policies. Higher taxes. Etc.



I live in canada....I have universal healthcare. My country is nothing like what you just described. In fact the opposite of several of those points and the points you made in your post above.

Being in america terrifies me because the idea of hurting myself in america is horrifying.

All I know is. I pay $100 a month or so...a bit less...and I can go to any doctor i want any time for any reason and never worry or a pay a dime and it's #ing great.



Canada has 1/10th the population of the US. Canadian population is 36 million. US is like 350 million. Your entire country's population isn't even as big as California by itself at 39 million.

The US has about 11 million illegal immigrants, which really means the number is probably 20 million. Canada has a whopping 100,000. Even adjusting for population size, your illegal immigration problem is no where near the same in teh US as you guys don't share a border a third world sh*t holes.

Sorry, Rocky and Bullwinkle don't count as a military. (I jest, but my point stands about military spending).

Yes, you may get some basic medical care, but there is a reason everyone comes to the US when the sh*t hits the fan medically for life threatening medical care.

Your country is very much like I described...



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:29 AM
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originally posted by: peskyhumans
I disagree with the premise of the OP. I think universal healthcare would only be harmful to us, but I think we should all have universal retirement. The problem I have with social security is that it isn't good enough. It should be available earlier and should pay out more.

Saving for retirement? Any IRA you take out will only end up paying out a limited amount of money. The problem I have with it is even if I invested 10% of my income for 30 years, how do I know the lump sum I get will last me the remainder of my life when I retire? No one knows how long they're going to live. That money could run out.

That's why I made sure to get a state job that earns a pension. I want a constant income when I retire. I also have an IRA, but that lump sum is just candy. I know it's not going to last.

If you are so old you can't work, you NEED an income to live.

Healthcare? If I have an accident or catch a disease and end up on my death bed, that falls under "# happens". Which is why I see healthcare as a want and retirement income as a need. Not everyone needs healthcare, everyone needs an income.


You retire off the interest / dividend income of the nest egg. You save based on what you need in retirement. I have a financial planner and based on our expected expenses in retirement, we've laid out that we need X amount of money saved. So we save based on that goal. I get quarterly reports showing how we are tracking to our goal.

Even if I die early, I at least know my kids will be taken care of financially. Let's say you saved $2 million in retirement but you die at 60 and never really got to enjoy it. Your kids / spouse would get the $2 million. If you just had social security, you kid's don't get sh*t. You contributed all that money to SS and don't have anything to show for it.

In fact, that is what social security is counting on - you dying before you actually recoup your initial investment into the system. This is how social security works. The poor take out way more than they put into the system while the wealthy don't get near what we are owed or could have earned based on the returns we could have gotten in better investments.



edit on 18-12-2018 by Edumakated because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:37 AM
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originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: peskyhumans
I disagree with the premise of the OP. I think universal healthcare would only be harmful to us, but I think we should all have universal retirement. The problem I have with social security is that it isn't good enough. It should be available earlier and should pay out more.

Saving for retirement? Any IRA you take out will only end up paying out a limited amount of money. The problem I have with it is even if I invested 10% of my income for 30 years, how do I know the lump sum I get will last me the remainder of my life when I retire? No one knows how long they're going to live. That money could run out.

That's why I made sure to get a state job that earns a pension. I want a constant income when I retire. I also have an IRA, but that lump sum is just candy. I know it's not going to last.

If you are so old you can't work, you NEED an income to live.

Healthcare? If I have an accident or catch a disease and end up on my death bed, that falls under "# happens". Which is why I see healthcare as a want and retirement income as a need. Not everyone needs healthcare, everyone needs an income.


You retire off the interest / dividend income of the nest egg. You save based on what you need in retirement. I have a financial planner and based on our expected expenses in retirement, we've laid out that we need X amount of money saved. So we save based on that goal. I get quarterly reports showing how we are tracking to our goal.

Even if I die early, I at least know my kids will be taken care of financially. Let's say you saved $2 million in retirement but you die at 60 and never really got to enjoy it. Your kids / spouse would get the $2 million. If you just had social security, you kid's don't get sh*t. You contributed all that money to SS and don't have anything to show for it.

In fact, that is what social security is counting on. You dying before you actually recoup your initial investment into the system.


I couldn't have said it better. I think peskyhumans doesn't understand how a real retirement program works and the unbelievable profits you can make on your money over time with interest.

When I say I am looking to retire with 15k+/mo im not talking about hitting the actual nest egg. Im talking about living off the interest that my nest egg is generating.

Lets just say that you have a nest egg of 2 million. If i am netting 10% interest that's 200k/yr. Yes, 10% is generous but I am just using it as an example. Now you might still have to pay taxes on the 200k depending on how you invested.

Most people will say its impossible to save 2 million. But if you start in your 20's or 30's overtime with compounded interest you can net millions. Trust me



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:46 AM
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originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: peskyhumans
I disagree with the premise of the OP. I think universal healthcare would only be harmful to us, but I think we should all have universal retirement. The problem I have with social security is that it isn't good enough. It should be available earlier and should pay out more.

Saving for retirement? Any IRA you take out will only end up paying out a limited amount of money. The problem I have with it is even if I invested 10% of my income for 30 years, how do I know the lump sum I get will last me the remainder of my life when I retire? No one knows how long they're going to live. That money could run out.

That's why I made sure to get a state job that earns a pension. I want a constant income when I retire. I also have an IRA, but that lump sum is just candy. I know it's not going to last.

If you are so old you can't work, you NEED an income to live.

Healthcare? If I have an accident or catch a disease and end up on my death bed, that falls under "# happens". Which is why I see healthcare as a want and retirement income as a need. Not everyone needs healthcare, everyone needs an income.


You retire off the interest / dividend income of the nest egg. You save based on what you need in retirement. I have a financial planner and based on our expected expenses in retirement, we've laid out that we need X amount of money saved. So we save based on that goal. I get quarterly reports showing how we are tracking to our goal.

Even if I die early, I at least know my kids will be taken care of financially. Let's say you saved $2 million in retirement but you die at 60 and never really got to enjoy it. Your kids / spouse would get the $2 million. If you just had social security, you kid's don't get sh*t. You contributed all that money to SS and don't have anything to show for it.

In fact, that is what social security is counting on. You dying before you actually recoup your initial investment into the system.


I couldn't have said it better. I think peskyhumans doesn't understand how a real retirement program works and the unbelievable profits you can make on your money over time with interest.

When I say I am looking to retire with 15k+/mo im not talking about hitting the actual nest egg. Im talking about living off the interest that my nest egg is generating.

Lets just say that you have a nest egg of 2 million. If i am netting 10% interest that's 200k/yr. Yes, 10% is generous but I am just using it as an example. Now you might still have to pay taxes on the 200k depending on how you invested.

Most people will say its impossible to save 2 million. But if you start in your 20's or 30's overtime with compounded interest you can net millions. Trust me


Yup. Wife and I started at 22 right out of college maxing out 401ks, stock options, RSUs.. we are in our early 40s. We are millionaires now. Did nothing special other than be frugal and consistently invest.

People just don't understand basic finance. The earlier you start, the bigger the nest egg will be. It just takes discipline. Instead of buying your kid Jordans' buy him some stock. Instead of buying a fancy car, buy a cheaper car and invest.

House will be paid off in 10 years or less. No car payments. As you get older, you should be eliminating debt / downsizing so your expenses should be going down.

People just want to make excuses and financial illiteracy is rampant. If there was one thing I changed in our school system is a much bigger focus on personal finance starting in high school.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 12:23 PM
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originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
a reply to: Edumakated

I agree that both are frauds. But if I had to choose one I would rather it be healthcare because of the immediate benefits to me.

I agree our government can screw up boiling water but there are plenty of countries out there with great universal healthcare programs that work. Why couldn't we model ours from one of theirs or all of them?


It is debatable if the countries with universal healthcare are really any better. The big issue is that it is an apples and oranges comparison. Most of the countries with universal healthcare have small and homogeneous populations. They also do not have the other major expenses that we have the US like our military. They have stricter immigration policies. Higher taxes. Etc.



I live in canada....I have universal healthcare. My country is nothing like what you just described. In fact the opposite of several of those points and the points you made in your post above.

Being in america terrifies me because the idea of hurting myself in america is horrifying.

All I know is. I pay $100 a month or so...a bit less...and I can go to any doctor i want any time for any reason and never worry or a pay a dime and it's #ing great.



Canada has 1/10th the population of the US. Canadian population is 36 million. US is like 350 million. Your entire country's population isn't even as big as California by itself at 39 million.

The US has about 11 million illegal immigrants, which really means the number is probably 20 million. Canada has a whopping 100,000. Even adjusting for population size, your illegal immigration problem is no where near the same in teh US as you guys don't share a border a third world sh*t holes.

Sorry, Rocky and Bullwinkle don't count as a military. (I jest, but my point stands about military spending).

Yes, you may get some basic medical care, but there is a reason everyone comes to the US when the sh*t hits the fan medically for life threatening medical care.

Your country is very much like I described...


Ya know...i've really come to realize americans li e in a bubble of ignorance about the way things are in the rest of the world. So, i'm just not going to bother...i'll just continue to enjoy reading the stories of insane medical bills, people's liveliehoods and lives sometimes being ruined over a broken leg or a cold and everybody continuing to argue why it's better to allow the 'free market'(as if what you guys call medical care is run by a free market) to provide healthcare instead of ya know...society....the way countries that aren't vast stretchesof third world #holes do...

See...the other thing i've found is Americana are woefully ignorant about the way large amounts of those 350 million people actually live. Going on a few road trips across America just really showed me just how much of it is really no different than third world countries i've been to.

I've seen rural villages in small south east Asian countries with more amenities and a higher quality of life than some American towns i've been through....at least they weren't full of billboards pleading with people not to kill themselves or smoke meth...across from the billboards advertising anti-depressents and anti-anxiety medicine...and there was more than Arby's, Burger king, mcdonalds or the local gas station to get food from....but ya know...they always had several churches so I guess god looks after them or something???



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 12:30 PM
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originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.



Every person who had a diversified portfolio and kept their money in the stocks and 401k during the 08 crash has now made that money back and then some. Prop a lot more than they had during the crash.

In 80+ years the stock market has crashed a bunch of times. But it has never not bounced back harder and better than before.


my accountant had quite a bit invested in the stock market in mutual funds at the time of the crash. Three years ago he finally started to match what he had before the crash, six and a half years before he broke out even. Now he has been doing good, with the stockmarket jumping up since Trump, he finally made some money and he said he was pulling most of it out last March when we saw him at tax time. He is sixty five and said he does not have enough time to wait another seven years for it to rebuild, he was going to pay off much of his debt from buying out another firm and putting the rest into a special account at the bank so he could defer taxes for a few more years.

You probably did not break even after the crash for about five years after 08. Five years with no interest based on what you had in mid 08. Think about that and average everything together to find out how much real profits you made.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 12:41 PM
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originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.



Every person who had a diversified portfolio and kept their money in the stocks and 401k during the 08 crash has now made that money back and then some. Prop a lot more than they had during the crash.

In 80+ years the stock market has crashed a bunch of times. But it has never not bounced back harder and better than before.


my accountant had quite a bit invested in the stock market in mutual funds at the time of the crash. Three years ago he finally started to match what he had before the crash, six and a half years before he broke out even. Now he has been doing good, with the stockmarket jumping up since Trump, he finally made some money and he said he was pulling most of it out last March when we saw him at tax time. He is sixty five and said he does not have enough time to wait another seven years for it to rebuild, he was going to pay off much of his debt from buying out another firm and putting the rest into a special account at the bank so he could defer taxes for a few more years.

You probably did not break even after the crash for about five years after 08. Five years with no interest based on what you had in mid 08. Think about that and average everything together to find out how much real profits you made.


The DJI took about 4 years to recover. However, if you'd continue to buy during the down turn, you would have made a killing on the upswing. Buy low, sell high. Unfortunately, most people panic and sell instead of buying.

The only way your accountants story makes sense is if he was heavily invested in one company that never recovered instead of being diversified. The broader market recovered and took off after four years.

As you get older, you definitely want to move into less risky investments like bonds / cash. However, when you are young, you invest aggressively to get the biggest returns.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 12:48 PM
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originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: dug88

originally posted by: Edumakated

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
a reply to: Edumakated

I agree that both are frauds. But if I had to choose one I would rather it be healthcare because of the immediate benefits to me.

I agree our government can screw up boiling water but there are plenty of countries out there with great universal healthcare programs that work. Why couldn't we model ours from one of theirs or all of them?


It is debatable if the countries with universal healthcare are really any better. The big issue is that it is an apples and oranges comparison. Most of the countries with universal healthcare have small and homogeneous populations. They also do not have the other major expenses that we have the US like our military. They have stricter immigration policies. Higher taxes. Etc.



I live in canada....I have universal healthcare. My country is nothing like what you just described. In fact the opposite of several of those points and the points you made in your post above.

Being in america terrifies me because the idea of hurting myself in america is horrifying.

All I know is. I pay $100 a month or so...a bit less...and I can go to any doctor i want any time for any reason and never worry or a pay a dime and it's #ing great.



Canada has 1/10th the population of the US. Canadian population is 36 million. US is like 350 million. Your entire country's population isn't even as big as California by itself at 39 million.

The US has about 11 million illegal immigrants, which really means the number is probably 20 million. Canada has a whopping 100,000. Even adjusting for population size, your illegal immigration problem is no where near the same in teh US as you guys don't share a border a third world sh*t holes.

Sorry, Rocky and Bullwinkle don't count as a military. (I jest, but my point stands about military spending).

Yes, you may get some basic medical care, but there is a reason everyone comes to the US when the sh*t hits the fan medically for life threatening medical care.

Your country is very much like I described...


Ya know...i've really come to realize americans li e in a bubble of ignorance about the way things are in the rest of the world. So, i'm just not going to bother...i'll just continue to enjoy reading the stories of insane medical bills, people's liveliehoods and lives sometimes being ruined over a broken leg or a cold and everybody continuing to argue why it's better to allow the 'free market'(as if what you guys call medical care is run by a free market) to provide healthcare instead of ya know...society....the way countries that aren't vast stretchesof third world #holes do...

See...the other thing i've found is Americana are woefully ignorant about the way large amounts of those 350 million people actually live. Going on a few road trips across America just really showed me just how much of it is really no different than third world countries i've been to.

I've seen rural villages in small south east Asian countries with more amenities and a higher quality of life than some American towns i've been through....at least they weren't full of billboards pleading with people not to kill themselves or smoke meth...across from the billboards advertising anti-depressents and anti-anxiety medicine...and there was more than Arby's, Burger king, mcdonalds or the local gas station to get food from....but ya know...they always had several churches so I guess god looks after them or something???


And I've come to realize that some people can't handle it when they are bested in a debate...

I pointed out how Canada is exactly like how I described. In general countries that have universal health care tend not to be a true apples to apples comparison with the US because:

1) Population
2) Homogeneity
3) Military

You tried to act like Canada doesn't fit that mold and I showed you with facts how it does.

Canada is 1/10th the population of the US.

Canada is largely white does not have a huge illegal immigrant population, particularly of the poor and uneducated kind to clog up your hospital system.

Canada does not have huge govt expenditures to play world police

So you do have universal healthcare, but as I stated, it won't necessarily work in the US for the above factors. My other point, is that while it may work for less critical medical needs, the US does in fact have the most innovative health system and thus people come here for life threatening treatment.

Most of the issues with the US medical system are rooted in government interference. By in large, we don't have free market healthcare or insurance.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 12:50 PM
link   

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.


I already have a very diverse portfolio and I am planning on retiring by age 55. With 15k+ disposable income per month tac free.

Whats pissing me off is if I could take the extra 400/mo I put into SS and instead add it to my portfilio I could be banking 25k/mo and not 15k

See the point im making?


See what you mean? What the hell do you need all that money for, we enjoy our lives making a couple of grand a month. Why would we need more than that, all you need is enough to supply your needs and some of your wants. I am tired of working my butt off to impress other people, I chose to just get out of the rat race and enjoy the simplicity of life. I do not want to go get food poisoning on a cruise ship or get radiation poisoning from flying all over the world. I do not want to go look at the pyramids, sure, the Italian foods would be fun to sample, but I have some older Italian friends that have original Italian Cudighi recipies and can get some from them. The internet has lots of great Italian recipes....posted from the Italian people in Italy. I do not need to go to Finland to experience my ancestry, I just have to go visit some finish farmers here to experience the culture they have....basically the great foods.

My wife wants to go to England to visit cornewell, we know people there and can stay with them. But the daughter went there three years ago and wound up with delays and had to spend two days in motels in New York if I remember right, the wife would not like to have two days of layover in a city like New York.

So we just go to an archeology conference once a year and try to cook more yummy dishes at home instead of going to restaurants and complain about how the food got so much worse over the years. We go out and eat about three to five times a month, that is plenty. We exited the rat race, we no longer need to keep up with the jones'. the grass is greener on this side of the fence. Our cars are older, paid for, and reliable, we may buy one new one next year and pay for it cash. The thing is I hate all that stupid technology in cars, I don't mind the power windows and door locks, but all the other crap is not needed, we do not need gps, we have brains that can tell us where we are. We do not need back up cameras, we can see out mirrors and can still turn our heads, we do not need to have automatic brakes, we pay attention when driving, we do not consume the foods that dampen our intellect. The wife is on one med, I do not need any, I use diet to control my problems.

I am just trying to tell you there are better ways, you do not need a lot of money to impress others. You are young, in five to six years you will hopefully understand what I am trying to say.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: Edumakated

He was invested in a big mutual fund company. About half in rapid growth, the other half in secure growth. The one that faired poorly was the secure growth, the loss was less but the recovery was longer.

We sold most of our stocks when we got our money back, only having maybe forty grand in stocks left today. We are retired, we cannot wait to have the stocks bounce back if it goes down. So we took the money out and since we did, I kept track of the stocks and funds we had., we would have averaged five to seven percent gain a year, not worth the risk. Maybe we only get one percent on our savings now, but it seems like when you need the money, the stocks are down.

I studied the true value of many companies that are out there, most of these big companies are not really that good, they are using future growth potential of up to ten years to judge value. I have seen lots of companies go belly up in my lifetime, lots of big investment companies too. We got burned on stock with one of these companies, they held the stock and we could not find out anything about it without getting a lawyer, it was only two grand, the lawyer would have cost more than that to file a claim, we asked.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:03 PM
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originally posted by: rickymouse

originally posted by: PraetorianAZ

originally posted by: rickymouse
You can get sued and lose all of your retirement benefits, but they cannot touch your social secuerity. The suit can be from hospitals. The chance that your investments can get hacked and disappear is growing, the chance that the stock market can crash and your money is half gone is always there. Did you not learn about this during the 08 crash, it took two years or more to get back what you lost.

The wife and I are on Social security, it is nice, we get our checks every month and learned to live on that money. We have savings for big things, but mostly need it to cover expenses if one of us dies and the other has reduced income. We have paid off all our debts and just have living expenses, and credit card bills we pay completely off every month.

Social security is a good investment in my mind, over the years the true growth of our stocks was not really that great, drops in the market many times erased profits, especially when we had the mutual funds. The value of the last stock we still have dropped ten grand over the last two months, that is not cool. The rest of our money is in the banks, that is guaranteed not to drop.

Usually people I know that are saying what you are saying wind up losing out in the longrun, winding up broke by the time they are seventy. Their social security checks are not enough to meet their wants, their wants usually wipe out their investments. Learn before you retire to cut back on spending, learn your real needs, spending money is an addiction for many people. It gives people a high to shop and they buy things they do not really need. Been there, done that, finally learned about eight years ago that I was on the wrong path most people are on.


I already have a very diverse portfolio and I am planning on retiring by age 55. With 15k+ disposable income per month tac free.

Whats pissing me off is if I could take the extra 400/mo I put into SS and instead add it to my portfilio I could be banking 25k/mo and not 15k

See the point im making?


See what you mean? What the hell do you need all that money for, we enjoy our lives making a couple of grand a month. Why would we need more than that, all you need is enough to supply your needs and some of your wants. I am tired of working my butt off to impress other people, I chose to just get out of the rat race and enjoy the simplicity of life. I do not want to go get food poisoning on a cruise ship or get radiation poisoning from flying all over the world. I do not want to go look at the pyramids, sure, the Italian foods would be fun to sample, but I have some older Italian friends that have original Italian Cudighi recipies and can get some from them. The internet has lots of great Italian recipes....posted from the Italian people in Italy. I do not need to go to Finland to experience my ancestry, I just have to go visit some finish farmers here to experience the culture they have....basically the great foods.

My wife wants to go to England to visit cornewell, we know people there and can stay with them. But the daughter went there three years ago and wound up with delays and had to spend two days in motels in New York if I remember right, the wife would not like to have two days of layover in a city like New York.

So we just go to an archeology conference once a year and try to cook more yummy dishes at home instead of going to restaurants and complain about how the food got so much worse over the years. We go out and eat about three to five times a month, that is plenty. We exited the rat race, we no longer need to keep up with the jones'. the grass is greener on this side of the fence. Our cars are older, paid for, and reliable, we may buy one new one next year and pay for it cash. The thing is I hate all that stupid technology in cars, I don't mind the power windows and door locks, but all the other crap is not needed, we do not need gps, we have brains that can tell us where we are. We do not need back up cameras, we can see out mirrors and can still turn our heads, we do not need to have automatic brakes, we pay attention when driving, we do not consume the foods that dampen our intellect. The wife is on one med, I do not need any, I use diet to control my problems.

I am just trying to tell you there are better ways, you do not need a lot of money to impress others. You are young, in five to six years you will hopefully understand what I am trying to say.


Better to have and not need than to need and not have...

With that said, I do agree with you to a point. As I've gotten older, I'v realized that I don't want to be in the rat race and it doesn't take much by way of material goods to make me happy. Unfortunately, having a wife and kids makes my off the grid / simple living dreams much harder to do.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:04 PM
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a reply to: rickymouse




I am just trying to tell you there are better ways, you do not need a lot of money to impress others. You are young, in five to six years you will hopefully understand what I am trying to say.


Wise man! Husband and I are looking into a cabin with lots and lots of acreage. I know how to intensively farm and he can pretty much build anything. Our #1 priority is making sure we both stay healthy enough so we need minimal to zero health care as we age. People think it is impossible. It's not. I personally think modern healthcare does more harm than good.

My mom is pretty old, she was told in the early 1980s that she had a black lung and it was very bad. She stopped going to the doctors after that. Here she is almost four decades later, still healthy as a horse.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:18 PM
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I need the money so when I retire I can travel, give to charity, spend my money on booze. You know whatever I want. It's kinda hard to be able to do whatever you want on a small fixed income. I have dreams besides working for 50 years and then reducing my lifestyle to match my crappy retirement income.

Then at the end of it all, I can give a nice chunk of cash to my loved ones. Instead of leaving them wondering how they will come up with the 10k+ it will cost to bury me.

I dont see myself as a rat in a race. I see myself as a rat who doesnt need to race anymore because I made smart decisions.

If you are fine with the way you live then power to you. But I actually want to live a little more than I do now when I retire. I want to cut loose when I retire not cut back.

I am not doing all this to impress others. Im doing it so I can retire with a smile and dream big.
edit on 18-12-2018 by PraetorianAZ because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-12-2018 by PraetorianAZ because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: JAGStorm
a reply to: rickymouse




I am just trying to tell you there are better ways, you do not need a lot of money to impress others. You are young, in five to six years you will hopefully understand what I am trying to say.


Wise man! Husband and I are looking into a cabin with lots and lots of acreage. I know how to intensively farm and he can pretty much build anything. Our #1 priority is making sure we both stay healthy enough so we need minimal to zero health care as we age. People think it is impossible. It's not. I personally think modern healthcare does more harm than good.

My mom is pretty old, she was told in the early 1980s that she had a black lung and it was very bad. She stopped going to the doctors after that. Here she is almost four decades later, still healthy as a horse.


Our bodies can heal, often we do not need medicines because some of the medicines create worse problems. I study medicine a lot, hacking pharmacology and trying to find alternate ways with dietary changes. I may need a doctor occasionally, sometimes you need a surgeon and to get a surgeon you often need a doctor. I am not afraid of doctors, just leary they may be like my ex-wife who attempted to get every bit of money out of me she could for a while.

I do not fear dying, I fear doctors trying to get me to take meds I cannot tolerate metabolically. I just got a new doctor, haven't met him yet, my other doctor retired a year ago, I met him when I transferred to him three years earlier, I guess I should get a young doctor so they do not retire, getting a new doctor when you don't go to a doctor hardly at all is harder. I have temoral lobe epilepsy but am severely intolerant to all five classes of meds so I use diet and doctors do not know about the anti-epileptic properties of foods. I have tachychardia, but changing my diet has eliminated all of the tachychardia attacks, of course the five different times I took beta blockers I also had an intolerance to them, they destroyed my ability to think. I don't care if my heart beats twice as fast as most people, I don't have those attacks anymore where my heart goes over two thirty BPM and starts to bounce around. Now I no longer need a doctor for that, I just adjusted my diet with research and eat correctly for me.

My kids do not listen well, I know a lot about things, but they insist on giving their money to doctors who later blow them off because they cannot correct their problems because they are not eating correctly for their metabolism. My oldest daughter, she is thirty seven, is finally catching on and listening. She is starting to get better finally after dumping thousands on doctors who could not fix her problems. They keep finding problems in other places, she doesn't care, she wants the problem she is in there for, the one that is really causing her problems fixed before starting to have other things totally unrelated fixed. Finally she is listening to me and the problem she has had for four years is going away, it costs about fifty cents a day for supplements that help to heal the area and about ten bucks a month in certain foods needed to help to fix her issue. As long as she doesn't go do thirty situps again or drag the snowblower across the yard to rip the area again where it is trying to repair, maybe she will heal the membrane. She starts to feel good again and she starts being stupid because she has had that pain so long now............ Kids........ They don't grow up till they hit fifty...Oh yeah, that is about when I finally grew up too.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: PraetorianAZ


I need the money so when I retire I can travel, give to charity, spend my money on booze. You know whatever I want. It's kinda hard to be able to do whatever you want on a small fixed income. I have dreams besides working for 50 years and then reducing my lifestyle to match my crappy retirement income.

Then at the end of it all, I can give a nice chunk of cash to my loved ones. Instead of leaving them wondering how they will come up with the 10k+ it will cost to bury me.

I dont see myself as a rat in a race. I see myself as a rat who doesnt need to race anymore because I made smart decisions.

If you are fine with the way you live then power to you. But I actually want to live a little more than I do now when I retire. I want to cut loose when I retire not cut back.

I am not doing all this to impress others. Im doing it so I can retire with a smile and dream big.


I was an extrovert most of my working career. I owned my business for many years and didn't need to advertise because I could talk to people, I did my estimating and billing on weekends and after the guys got off of work. I would sit in the restaurants and talk to people every day. When I was younger, I was out at the bars and mingling with people at parties.

I love sitting at home, cooking, being on the web, making firewood, staying the F*** away from people except for a couple of hours occasionally during the week. It is like a permanent vacation. I put in my time socializing, now I like to talk to the deer in the yard when I give them carrots or the bumblebee on the flower. I like experimenting with food recipes, I can make some kickass healthy foods that do not taste like healthfood. I love being an introvert and taking an extrovert vacation a couple of times a week. My cousin was the president of a company and he was very conservative and a homebody or he would go camping at the beach with his camper, relatives came to visit him there. Now he retired, he turned into a serious wild extrovert, traveling all over the country, going on Cruises, drinking, eating greasy barbaqued food to excess. I did that when I was young, he is doing it when he is sixty. After he had to have heart surgery because he clogged his arteries with all that junk food for four years he is starting to settle down for a month a year now. Changing your routine can cause lots of problems, sitting at a desk then going out walking all over and eating all that cruise ship and restaurant food is kind of too much change.

Sorry for rambling, hopefully you paid attention to what I said about my cousin.....remember not too much change too fast.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:50 PM
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originally posted by: ManFromEurope
The average life-expectancy of a citizen of the USA has DROPPED, in contrast to every other first world country. Scientists link this to a missing universal health care and a lowered willingness to visit doctors and hospitals connected to this.

Soo..


A lot more to it than that...

In the US, obesity is a problem. The US is so wealthy the biggest issue our poor have is being fat asses. This leads to increased diabetes and other health issues from sedentary lifestyles.

In addition, we also have high amounts of violence in the lower income classes (primarily poor blacks). Other countries are far more homogeneous, don't have near the obesity issues, and thus their life expectancy averages reflect this fact.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 02:04 PM
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originally posted by: PraetorianAZ
So many people here in the US would rather die than adopt a Universal Healthcare system for all citizens.


Do you have direct evidence that proves that 'universal healthcare' will magically extend the average lifespan of people in the United States? If so, please share, otherwise your opening sentence does little to create a solid foundation for your argument.


I am a firm believer that social security is the true fraud on the American people.

One of many frauds against the American people, yes...and probably the biggest.


At least with universal healthcare, I would get to use it all throughout my life (when needed) and I could get things wrong with me treated and not have to go 50k+ in debt because my appendix decided to burst (just an example).

Yet, many, many people who live in countries with UH come to the United States for medical care and procedures. I think that your mental utopia of what UH is doesn't reflect reality. For the average person, yes, it works fine, but for many, it is a nightmare system.

My shoulder surgeon started his medical career in the UK, and he explained quite a few scary details as to how medicine in general, and specifically surgery, is practiced in that system. I'll take my medical bills over that any day.


With social security, I won't even see the benefit until I am 62. 65 for maximum benefit (If it even lasts that long) and then I start collecting my checks. Checks that are a complete joke if you compare them to investing in a 401k and bonds etc.....

Right, but it's a long-term thing, specifically meant to build up over time. While I agree that a private 401k or equivalent does much better, pretending that a social retirement program is the same as a social medicine program is rather silly--it's like comparing a drag car to a LeMans car...they perform differently, for different lengths of time, because that's how they were designed. You don't condemn one only because you want to compare it to the other and they are different.


Doing the math currently social security is actually a terrible investment.

Any time you are forced to give money to the federal government by law, it's a terrible investment.


I mean if I can prove in court that I am being defrauded with social security and that there are better options for my retirement without government assistance than I should be able to get an order opting me out right?

Yes, you are correct, but you shouldn't have to prove anything to the government in order to use your own income as you deem appropriate.


What does ATS think?

Both programs are/would be a debacle and a fraud against the American people. The ROI on every government program is borderline comical...some might say criminal.

ETA: In the end (figuratively and literally), your fiscal and physical welfare is your responsibility, and yours alone. I recommend conducting your lives in both regards as if there will be no government assistance available for you to artificially prop you up. I see a day when there is real discussion about the unviability of Social Security, and I also see many systems around the world that use a single-payer medical system always having to admit that they cannot afford certain things, and are constantly having to rework and often limit medical resources available to the public.
edit on 18-12-2018 by SlapMonkey because: (no reason given)







 
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