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Analysis of Brexit

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posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:43 AM
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originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
Someone needs to have the balls to start making some really tough and unpopular decisions and stop worrying about their careers. Too many of them putting their jobs and parties before the good of the country.


Arguably, that is what Mrs May is doing.

Corbyn is just eyeing opportunity and no way does he want to be handed the problem of Brexit. He could not negotiate himself out of a paper bag, and would probably give Northern Ireland and Gibraltar away as he took advice from Momentum comrades.

The Scottish popularist party the SNP will take a robotic and contrary view to anything from Westminster, so they are hardly worth any useful input at all.

At least the DUP have legitimate concerns that their constituents will be poorly served by the Backstop.
edit on 18/12/2018 by paraphi because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 06:26 AM
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a reply to: Itisnowagain

because its all already been decided and this is just for show for the people so they can say they were informed and had a free will choice in their future !



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 08:11 AM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Meps only have an advisory role.
If they vote down a comission proposal, the president can then ASK the comission to reconsider.

Your mep is also not allowed to introduce a bill to create or rescind a law.

It's simply a tachnocracy dressed up as a democracy.


MEPs have the power to approve, amend or reject nearly all EU legislation. They hold the European Commission to account and can force it to resign. -- LINK/ Evidence --


If you are cool with that, fine, but you shouldn't lie to people to make it sound democratic, it clearly is not.


I am not lying and you should concentrate on discussing the topic, not ATS members.... you know, go after the ball not the player.


Dishonest again.
www.europarl.europa.eu...


Read your link again. It doesn't say what you seem to think it does.



 

More information on the ordinary legislative procedure 

Consultation

The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament’s opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.



On a limited range of issues the legislative authority lies with the council ( not the commission) rather than both the council & parliament.

As I said it doesn't say what you seem to think ( or claim).

It certainly doesn't say the European parliament is only advisory.



Like.....taxes.
I remember a revolutionary war being fought over taxation without representation.

But tell me, what percentage of laws being passed without a democratic mandate are acceptable before you consider yourself to be not living in a democracy?

For me, anything greater than zero is unacceptable.


So are you accepting that your claim that it was only advisory was wrong?

Do you also understand the difference between the council and the commission?




No, not at all, you are full of it.

If the parliament can not make or rescind or even reject outright every law that applies, it is only advisory


You can't even admitting where wrong (or lying) even when your own link shows it.

Despite your repeated claims the EU parliament is not just advisory.

If memory serves you were one of those opposed to the UK parliament having final say on the Brexit Deal. I guess you think the house of commons is just advisory, or are you just a hypocrite?



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 10:03 AM
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originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

They are not morons.... they are all puppets.
Makes me laugh how many Brexit threads there are...... and not one of them will make any difference to the outcome.


Really they're all just filled with the same people saying the same things...



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 10:19 AM
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originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: Itisnowagain
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

They are not morons.... they are all puppets.
Makes me laugh how many Brexit threads there are...... and not one of them will make any difference to the outcome.


Really they're all just filled with the same people saying the same things...

That is true haha, we clash in loads of the same kind of thread, I love it. It's like arguing at the pub to me.
There is a definite Scotland/England divide on ATS, the style of character, the issues we support or don't etc.
We all meet somewhere in the middle though and the banter can be funny as #...saying that there needs to be more Scots pop into the banter cafe thread, sharing tunes and chit chat is a great break from politics. Nice to get to know folk outside of bickering as well.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:43 AM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Meps only have an advisory role.
If they vote down a comission proposal, the president can then ASK the comission to reconsider.

Your mep is also not allowed to introduce a bill to create or rescind a law.

It's simply a tachnocracy dressed up as a democracy.


MEPs have the power to approve, amend or reject nearly all EU legislation. They hold the European Commission to account and can force it to resign. -- LINK/ Evidence --


If you are cool with that, fine, but you shouldn't lie to people to make it sound democratic, it clearly is not.


I am not lying and you should concentrate on discussing the topic, not ATS members.... you know, go after the ball not the player.


Dishonest again.
www.europarl.europa.eu...


Read your link again. It doesn't say what you seem to think it does.



 

More information on the ordinary legislative procedure 

Consultation

The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament’s opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.



On a limited range of issues the legislative authority lies with the council ( not the commission) rather than both the council & parliament.

As I said it doesn't say what you seem to think ( or claim).

It certainly doesn't say the European parliament is only advisory.



Like.....taxes.
I remember a revolutionary war being fought over taxation without representation.

But tell me, what percentage of laws being passed without a democratic mandate are acceptable before you consider yourself to be not living in a democracy?

For me, anything greater than zero is unacceptable.


So are you accepting that your claim that it was only advisory was wrong?

Do you also understand the difference between the council and the commission?




No, not at all, you are full of it.

If the parliament can not make or rescind or even reject outright every law that applies, it is only advisory


You can't even admitting where wrong (or lying) even when your own link shows it.

Despite your repeated claims the EU parliament is not just advisory.

If memory serves you were one of those opposed to the UK parliament having final say on the Brexit Deal. I guess you think the house of commons is just advisory, or are you just a hypocrite?



Bleat all you like, the fact remains that eu law does not say anywhere that legislation can only pass into law or be rescinded with the approval of a parliamentary majority.

Parliament could veto any legislation and it can still get passed by a small cadre of people we are not allowed to vote for.
That is not democracy



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:52 AM
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a reply to: SprocketUK
That is how I understand it as well.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 11:58 AM
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The whole Brexit fiasco is a disgrace...and those calling for a second referendum have lost the plot.

We had a vote and the population said leave. All that's left for the politicians to do is get us the best deal they can, and we leave. Why would we have a second referendum? Truth is they slipped up and gave us a choice and they didn't like the answer. Plans should have been set in place immediately to cover any conceivable contingencies.

If there is a second referendum then we scots will want one too!



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 01:06 PM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: Agartha

originally posted by: SprocketUK
Meps only have an advisory role.
If they vote down a comission proposal, the president can then ASK the comission to reconsider.

Your mep is also not allowed to introduce a bill to create or rescind a law.

It's simply a tachnocracy dressed up as a democracy.


MEPs have the power to approve, amend or reject nearly all EU legislation. They hold the European Commission to account and can force it to resign. -- LINK/ Evidence --


If you are cool with that, fine, but you shouldn't lie to people to make it sound democratic, it clearly is not.


I am not lying and you should concentrate on discussing the topic, not ATS members.... you know, go after the ball not the player.


Dishonest again.
www.europarl.europa.eu...


Read your link again. It doesn't say what you seem to think it does.



 

More information on the ordinary legislative procedure 

Consultation

The European Parliament may approve or reject a legislative proposal, or propose amendments to it. The Council is not legally obliged to take account of Parliament’s opinion but in line with the case-law of the Court of Justice, it must not take a decision without having received it.



On a limited range of issues the legislative authority lies with the council ( not the commission) rather than both the council & parliament.

As I said it doesn't say what you seem to think ( or claim).

It certainly doesn't say the European parliament is only advisory.



Like.....taxes.
I remember a revolutionary war being fought over taxation without representation.

But tell me, what percentage of laws being passed without a democratic mandate are acceptable before you consider yourself to be not living in a democracy?

For me, anything greater than zero is unacceptable.


So are you accepting that your claim that it was only advisory was wrong?

Do you also understand the difference between the council and the commission?




No, not at all, you are full of it.

If the parliament can not make or rescind or even reject outright every law that applies, it is only advisory


You can't even admitting where wrong (or lying) even when your own link shows it.

Despite your repeated claims the EU parliament is not just advisory.

If memory serves you were one of those opposed to the UK parliament having final say on the Brexit Deal. I guess you think the house of commons is just advisory, or are you just a hypocrite?



Bleat all you like, the fact remains that eu law does not say anywhere that legislation can only pass into law or be rescinded with the approval of a parliamentary majority.

Parliament could veto any legislation and it can still get passed by a small cadre of people we are not allowed to vote for.
That is not democracy


What I see is that you claimed that the EU parliament is only advisory. When pointed out that you wrong (as shown by your own link) you have desperately tried to move the goal posts.

Now you are back back to the old it's not democratic routine. The EU system is designed protect the interests of the EU (commission), EU citizens (parliament) and member states (council). No one part has to total legislative control.

The simple fact is that in the EU the organisations are either elected, appointed by those elected or represent the national governments ( all elected).

Compare that to the UK to the with the House of Lords and required royal assent and the EU is a model of democracy.

There are a lot of legitimate criticisms of the EU, but your deliberate misrepresentation of how it works contribute nothing to the debate.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:16 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Well, I showed you, you saw it.
If you can't bring yourself to admit the truth of the reality. It's your business.

If you want to pretend to yourself that the eu is democratic because you get to vote for an mep every few years, I guess you have to do whatever gets you to sleep at night.

I do pity you for it though. Even when your wilful ignorance riles me.
No one should be ruled like a peasant in the West, in the 21st century. Even if they think it's ok.
Stockholm syndrome I guess.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:19 PM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ScepticScot

Well, I showed you, you saw it.
If you can't bring yourself to admit the truth of the reality. It's your business.

If you want to pretend to yourself that the eu is democratic because you get to vote for an mep every few years, I guess you have to do whatever gets you to sleep at night.

I do pity you for it though. Even when your wilful ignorance riles me.
No one should be ruled like a peasant in the West, in the 21st century. Even if they think it's ok.
Stockholm syndrome I guess.


You claimed the EU parliament was only advisory.

It isn't.

You were unequivocally wrong but can't even admit it.

Quite sad really.

ETA - vote for MEP same frequency as MP, MSP. Or local council.

More often than vote for UK head of state or PM....


edit on 18-12-2018 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-12-2018 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:24 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ScepticScot

Well, I showed you, you saw it.
If you can't bring yourself to admit the truth of the reality. It's your business.

If you want to pretend to yourself that the eu is democratic because you get to vote for an mep every few years, I guess you have to do whatever gets you to sleep at night.

I do pity you for it though. Even when your wilful ignorance riles me.
No one should be ruled like a peasant in the West, in the 21st century. Even if they think it's ok.
Stockholm syndrome I guess.


You claimed the EU parliament was only advisory.

It isn't.

You were unequivocally wrong but can't even admit it.

Quite sad really.


It either has full legislative powers or its advisory.
It does not posess full legislative powers though, ergo it's role is advisory.

The Council and commission are no more democratic than the house of Lords. Yet they hold the real power in the EU.

It's a risible situation.

ETA for those who do not know, the PM is whatever MP leads the majority party and is thus elected at the same time as other MPs, despite the silly diversion tactics in the quote above.
edit on 44pTue, 18 Dec 2018 16:26:44 -060020182018-12-18T16:26:44-06:00kAmerica/Chicago31000000k by SprocketUK because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:27 PM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ScepticScot

Well, I showed you, you saw it.
If you can't bring yourself to admit the truth of the reality. It's your business.

If you want to pretend to yourself that the eu is democratic because you get to vote for an mep every few years, I guess you have to do whatever gets you to sleep at night.

I do pity you for it though. Even when your wilful ignorance riles me.
No one should be ruled like a peasant in the West, in the 21st century. Even if they think it's ok.
Stockholm syndrome I guess.


You claimed the EU parliament was only advisory.

It isn't.

You were unequivocally wrong but can't even admit it.

Quite sad really.


It either has full legislative powers or its advisory.
It does not posess full legislative powers though, ergo it's role is advisory.

The Council and commission are no more democratic than the house of Lords. Yet they hold the real power in the EU.

It's a risible situation.


Really how many members of commission are there because of who their great great granny shagged or what church they belong to+

Most parliaments don't hold full legislative powers, Your argument is nonsense.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:29 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ScepticScot

Well, I showed you, you saw it.
If you can't bring yourself to admit the truth of the reality. It's your business.

If you want to pretend to yourself that the eu is democratic because you get to vote for an mep every few years, I guess you have to do whatever gets you to sleep at night.

I do pity you for it though. Even when your wilful ignorance riles me.
No one should be ruled like a peasant in the West, in the 21st century. Even if they think it's ok.
Stockholm syndrome I guess.


You claimed the EU parliament was only advisory.

It isn't.

You were unequivocally wrong but can't even admit it.

Quite sad really.


It either has full legislative powers or its advisory.
It does not posess full legislative powers though, ergo it's role is advisory.

The Council and commission are no more democratic than the house of Lords. Yet they hold the real power in the EU.

It's a risible situation.


Really how many members of commission are there because of who their great great granny shagged or what church they belong to+

Most parliaments don't hold full legislative powers, Your argument is nonsense.



How many are there because they were elected by the people?

NONE

Get a grip, lad.


And wow, you are moving those goalposts.
So we have to compare the EU to ever more undemocratic forms of government to make it look good now, do we?

Look at the UK, even though we have a monarch and an unelected chamber still, the real power to make law lies in the elected chamber, as it should.

But you want some sort of banana Republic form of government divorced from the people?

At least be honest and stop pretending you are defending a democracy.
edit on 12pTue, 18 Dec 2018 16:35:12 -060020182018-12-18T16:35:12-06:00kAmerica/Chicago31000000k by SprocketUK because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:43 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot
Really how many members of commission are there because of who their great great granny shagged or what church they belong to+


Probably quite a few. The elite and their nepotism. You would not get many poor people ending up such well fitting suits. Oh, and most are men too.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:47 PM
link   

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK
a reply to: ScepticScot

Well, I showed you, you saw it.
If you can't bring yourself to admit the truth of the reality. It's your business.

If you want to pretend to yourself that the eu is democratic because you get to vote for an mep every few years, I guess you have to do whatever gets you to sleep at night.

I do pity you for it though. Even when your wilful ignorance riles me.
No one should be ruled like a peasant in the West, in the 21st century. Even if they think it's ok.
Stockholm syndrome I guess.


You claimed the EU parliament was only advisory.

It isn't.

You were unequivocally wrong but can't even admit it.

Quite sad really.


It either has full legislative powers or its advisory.
It does not posess full legislative powers though, ergo it's role is advisory.

The Council and commission are no more democratic than the house of Lords. Yet they hold the real power in the EU.

It's a risible situation.


Really how many members of commission are there because of who their great great granny shagged or what church they belong to+

Most parliaments don't hold full legislative powers, Your argument is nonsense.



How many are there because they were elected by the people?

NONE

Get a grip, lad.


And wow, you are moving those goalposts.
So we have to compare the EU to ever more undemocratic forms of government to make it look good now, do we?

Look at the UK, even though we have a monarch and an unelected chamber still, the real power to make law lies in the elected chamber, as it should.

But you want some sort of banana Republic form of government divorced from the people?

At least be honest and stop pretending you are defending a democracy.


All major positions in the EU are either elected or a appointed by elected officials. Something you can't say about the UK.

Maybe you mean other banana republics like the US where most senior government positions are either appointed by the President or nominated by him.

All of which is still totally irrelevant to you categorically incorrect claim that the EU parliament is only advisory.

As I have said the EU has many real faults which could and should be discussed. You making up ones just distracts from that.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:49 PM
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originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Really how many members of commission are there because of who their great great granny shagged or what church they belong to+


Probably quite a few. The elite and their nepotism. You would not get many poor people ending up such well fitting suits. Oh, and most are men too.


Nepotism and boys club mentally is certainly a problem with governments world wide. The UK on the other hand has it as part of our actual constitution.*

*a term I use very loosely with regards,the UK.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 04:53 PM
link   

originally posted by: paraphi

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Really how many members of commission are there because of who their great great granny shagged or what church they belong to+


Probably quite a few. The elite and their nepotism. You would not get many poor people ending up such well fitting suits. Oh, and most are men too.


Out of interest just looked up gender split.

32% female in.house of commons, 37% in European parliament. Both terrible but at least on upwards trend.

ETA 26%in house of lords...
edit on 18-12-2018 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 05:00 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Out of interest just looked up gender split.

32% female in.house of commons, 37% in European parliament. Both terrible but at least on upwards trend.

ETA 26%in house of lords...


EU Commissioners. Mostly men. Most from affluent backgrounds. Out of touch. Undemocratic. Appointed by each other.



posted on Dec, 18 2018 @ 05:17 PM
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a reply to: DigginFoTroof

Hi, just a few things.




-Country voted to leave


The vote was a referendum. It was asking the opinion of the public, not letting them literally decide policy.




-EU doesn't want anyone to leave b/c that would set a precident for nations leaving the union


Correct.




-Progressive (liberals) in Britain want to remain in the EU


A little misleading. Progressives and liberals aren't necessarily the same thing in the UK, same as in the US. It's true generally that liberals are against Brexit, but the further left you travel, the less of a categorical dismissal of Brexit you see. Check out the language that Corbyn and the Labour Party use.




-The result of the Brexit negotiations resulted in a horrible deal for Britain thus making leaving the EU VERY distasteful if not painful - probably to make an example.


It was unlikely that Brexit was ever going to be good for the UK.




-Negotiations may have been sabotaged by both parties (EU and progressives in Britain)


I can't find anything in regards to this.




-Terrible exit package is resulting in a call for a new "Brexit" vote to see if people still want to leave after seeing what may lie ahead


Now that the politicians see the reality of the situation, they're scrambling to repair the damage they've done.

Which leads us to:




-Possible new vote to continue Brexit or remain


Again, this is a referendum, not a vote for policy. The process to allow the UK to leave the EU has already started and, regardless of whether or not a satisfying negotiation is reached, the UK will leave on 29 March next year. I assume they can stop this, which is why they want to do another referendum.







 
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