Obamacare Thrown Out by Judge (Unconstitutional), Raising Insurance Uncertainty

a reply to: Extorris

We will have to wait and see what the Supreme Court says.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan
what pisses me off in this discussion: if you have reasonable critiques of ACA that lead you to think it should be repealed, you get the fallacious argument thrown at you that you must like seeing children die, etc.

No, grown men and women die too without medical care.

The reality is that unless it is me, my family, my child dying....the alarm isn't there for me. Are there sad stories? Bet your ass their are. That is called "life".

Thank you, that helps clarify your position.
You are no one worth knowing in my opinion. Life is too short.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Extorris

We will have to wait and see what the Supreme Court says.

No doubt they will overturn the ruling if the 5th Circuit doesn't first. The ruling was legally flawed and over-reaching.

But what this has done is underline the GOPs position on healthcare and Democrats will hammer it home before 2020.

Paul Ryan already knows this

“The House was not party to this suit, and we are reviewing the ruling and its impact,” said AshLee Strong, spokeswoman for House Speaker Paul Ryan, R-Wis.

www.apnews.com...

This ruling did no favors the GOP.

It's a lose lose. They can't repair ACA without getting eviscerated. They can't repeal it without getting eviscerated and they have failed to come up with a viable alternative in over a decade now (when ACA was first debated).

The GOP is good at breaking stuff, not good at fixing stuff.
Same with small children.

The GOP will let the new Dem Congress repair ACA and they will give them the minimum votes in the senate to get it passed.
That will afford them the space to remain critics while heading off disaster come 2020.
President Trump will be desperate enough coming into 2020 that he will sign the fix and declare victory. He lives in the moment.

Sounds outrageous, but that is the only course I see available to the GOP for survival.

a reply to: Extorris

Hey, thanks for the off topic jab! This thread wouldn't be able to go on without it.

a reply to: Extorris

So Republicans have had no effect on the law and no ability to affect the law over the past 8 years to present?
That is your position?

No.

This is not something that can be boiled down to binary thinking, sorry. The Republicans in the last Congress do bear some responsibility for not having a plan "ready to go" as was promised. That is on them. But Obamacare itself is on the Democrats who passed it and the president whose name it bears. There's blame to go around, but the bulk of it is still on those who passed it.

I understand the desire to have pre-existing conditions covered; I like that too. My daughter used to like to eat pure butter... that wasn't a wise idea, even though it certainly was pleasurable for her at the time. Not everything that provides instant gratification is a good thing. In the case of pre-existing conditions, Obamacare grossly underestimated the amount insurance would increase in cost due to it, and yet relied on insurance to cover the already high costs. That is a fool's errand. The only way to accomplish it is to remove the entire concept of insurance. That's how other countries do it.

The result, again for the fourty-eleventh dozenth time, was to increase costs across the board, primarily benefiting the insurance companies. Now that that is done, one cannot simply decide that someone else takes blame. We are in the position we are in primarily because of Obamacare.

TheRedneck

a reply to: carewemust

FOX NEWS
ObamaCare ruling in Texas should have Republicans running scared, not rejoicing
www.foxnews.com...

No one is arguing that ObamaCare is perfect, including former President Obama. In 2016, Hillary Clinton ran on making smart changes to the ACA. Both have acknowledged that Americans are still paying too much for their premiums and deductibles, largely due to the greed of insurance providers, and there simply aren’t enough insurance options in far too many states.

Because of this reality, the argument for a public option and/or Medicare-for-all is only strengthened.

Judge's ruling on Obamacare poses new problems for GOP
Health care was the top issue in November election
www.apnews.com...

a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Off topic jabs are simply an indication the one being jabbed at is winning the argument.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: bigfatfurrytexan

Off topic jabs are simply an indication the one being jabbed at is winning the argument.

TheRedneck

It wasn't a jab though. It was honesty on both our parts.
He believes the lives of people that are not him or family don't matter.
I believe people that think that way are not worth knowing. Why would they be? I and my family wouldn't matter to him anyways.
Life is short. Choose your friends well.
Nothing personal.

I'm not a "Republican" (whatever that even means now) or a Trump fan by any stretch but the fact of the matter is that Obama (and his cohorts) deliberately caused this.

I lay it all at Obama's feet even if it wasn't entirely his doing. At the end of the day, Obamacare did not become law without his signature (which is why his signature is required in the first place). Obama did not deliver what he said he would and that was 100% on him from the moment he signed it.

If you go back and look at what he said during his campaign, he specifically said "no individual mandate". That is the same as if someone sells you a brand new car and you go to pick it up and it's 20 years old and doesn't even run. He lied. He defended his lie. He sent lawyers to lie to the Supreme Court to defend it. He lied about it in interviews (if he didn't lie, he simply evaded or refused to talk about it or tried to justify what he did without even admitting he lied).

He knew what he was doing. He knew it wouldn't fly. He knew the American people did not want that #ing individual mandate from day one. Why else would he have said there wasn't going to be one? Duh! Because he knew nobody wanted it and he wouldn't be offering anything Hillary wasn't offering! This was (in his own damn words) the key difference between his plan and Hillary's plan.

It could be argued that this was the lie that made the difference in the 2008 election. I kind of doubt people really wanted to vote for Hillary anyway but they certainly did not want that individual mandate and everyone (including Obama) damn well knew it. Which is why he was against it until he got elected and signed it into law. Same old story.

Is Trump any different? No. Trump is a blabbermouth narcissist who just happened to be able to take advantage of a rotten situation that was created by the president before him. But Trump was not even in the picture when this happened. Obama owns this.

a reply to: Extorris

He believes the lives of people that are not him or family don't matter.

No, he said that his life and the lives of his family matter most to him. As do I. As so you. As does anyone else who is honest about it.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

He believes the lives of people that are not him or family don't matter.

No, he said that his life and the lives of his family matter most to him. As do I. As so you. As does anyone else who is honest about it.

TheRedneck

Truth. As much as we may not want others to suffer, we are not going to put strangers on a pedestal and allow our own loved ones to suffer by doing so.

a reply to: Extorris

Since my career is based in the Insurance/Medical field, I'd be delighted with a major improvement to our healthcare delivery system.

One of my client's died recently, because her ObamaCare insurance wasn't accepted at the hospital that could save her life. And she (Age 28), nor her family, had the money to get her treated there. Before 2013, (when regular health insurance was outlawed) this would not have happened.

a reply to: ketsuko

As much as we may not want others to suffer, we are not going to put strangers on a pedestal and allow our own loved ones to suffer by doing so.

And that is what scares people. They still want Mommy and Daddy to take care of them, and they realize now that not everyone is willing to put them first. So they try to pass laws to force people to put them first.

Normal people have compassion for others, but no one places the well-being of a stranger above that of their own family. No one. Anyone who claims to is a liar.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

He believes the lives of people that are not him or family don't matter.

No, he said that his life and the lives of his family matter most to him. As do I. As so you. As does anyone else who is honest about it.

TheRedneck

I read it differently.
The lives of strangers children actually matter to me because my children are "a strangers children" to the other 300 million people I share this country with.

originally posted by: bigfatfurrytexan

The reality is that unless it is me, my family, my child dying....the alarm isn't there for me. Are there sad stories? Bet your ass their are. That is called "life". But ACA has caused a few sad stories, too. And despite my desire to see world peace, if there is a risk to some strangers child in NYC that can only be fixed by a scheme that results in my not being able to afford basic things, like my copay...i am unsure why I should be expected to care.

originally posted by: carewemust
a reply to: Extorris

Since my career is based in the Insurance/Medical field, I'd be delighted with a major improvement to our healthcare delivery system.

One of my client's died recently, because her ObamaCare insurance wasn't accepted at the hospital that could save her life. And she (Age 28), nor her family, had the money to get her treated there. Before 2013, (when regular health insurance was outlawed) this would not have happened.

There is a lot wrong with that story, not the least of which is the sad-face emoticon.

originally posted by: ketsuko

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

He believes the lives of people that are not him or family don't matter.

No, he said that his life and the lives of his family matter most to him. As do I. As so you. As does anyone else who is honest about it.

TheRedneck

Truth. As much as we may not want others to suffer, we are not going to put strangers on a pedestal and allow our own loved ones to suffer by doing so.

Once Obamacare was passed every and all insurance premium increases and increases in deductibles was laid at the feet of ACA.

The truth is that the rate of increase in insurance premiums year over year and the increasing deductibles and insurance companies fleeing unprofitable markets was insane before ACA and ACA has slowed all of it.

Again. The GOP will cheered by all if they come up with anything BETTER.

Still waiting after a decade now for just a simple alternative.

Numbers are real:

ACA needs improvement, but it is better than what we had.

jamanetwork.com...

a reply to: Extorris

The promise was not "Repeal".

Many congressmen campaigned on strictly that. So you're right and wrong on that.

The voting public is not stupid.

Yeah they are. Ask Johnathan Gruber, the architect of obamacare.

Despite this unprecedented trifecta of conservative power in government.

In what way was it unprecedented? In 2004 we had a 55 seat senate majority and a 30 seat house majority to go with a republican president. In 2016-2018 we had a 51 seat senate majority and a 45 seat house majority with trump as president. I'd take the 2004 numbers every day of the week over the 2016 numbers.

They failed to REPEAL.
They couldn't even come up for an idea to REPLACE.

Because government should stay out of our healthcare.

But they did find time to stab a dozen holes in the only lifeboat many Americans have??

Obamacare isn't a lifeboat, it's the titanic and it's sinking, very close to sunk at this point.
The good thing is that it's still at the dock so you can simply swim a few feet to the shore.

President Trump has constantly promised he would retain pre-existing conditions protections and allow children under the age of 26 to remain on their parents insurance polices.

I've never heard him say anything about the 26 year old "children" policy. But you're right on the pre-existing condition part.

This ruling just eliminated both of those things and the GOP failed to even come up with a plan to vote on despite majorities in all branches of government for two years.

It has been less than 5 days since the ruling. Congress is on recess. Has been since this ruling happened. They won't even get a chance to craft a bill before the new congress is in. Guess who controls the house in that congress. So guess who is going to share blame for not protecting those things? Yep, dems.

That is just factual.

While you definitely stated factual information, it was completely lacking of any context. I'll also state some factual information for you. In 2009 dems controlled the house, had a near supermajority in the senate, and had the presidency. They passed a broken bill. They also never did anything to fix what was lost in this ruling.
Just facts man.

Maybe I am just an old fashioned conservative? The party of responsibility and accountability?

Only one party is responsible and accountable? Why does anyone vote for the party of irresponsibility and unaccountability?

Yes. The GOP have earned their ownership of the current state of healthcare in this country.

You haven't really proved that at all. You've made a lot of illogical arguments and jumped to a lot of conclusions but you haven't made a good argument for why republicans own obamacare. But now you're trying to shift the goalposts to "healthcare" right?

They asked for power under the promise of "better" and the public gave it to them under that agreement.

No, they ran on repeal (some ran on repeal and replace). But again, the president hadn't even been sworn in when suddenly the polls shifted to being pro-obamacare. They're BS.

They are delivering "worse" and have failed to propose alternatives.

They haven't delivered anything, so if it's worse it's because the other guys plan gets worse with age. Sorry. Dems own obamacare.

a reply to: Extorris

The lives of strangers children actually matter to me because my children are "a strangers children" to the other 300 million people I share this country with.

So are you saying that you would protect someone else's child before you would protect your own child?

I'll go ahead and answer that for you. No, you would protect your own child first. If you disagree with that, I'll go ahead and call you a liar to your face right now.

TheRedneck

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: Extorris

The lives of strangers children actually matter to me because my children are "a strangers children" to the other 300 million people I share this country with.

So are you saying that you would protect someone else's child before you would protect your own child?

I'll go ahead and answer that for you. No, you would protect your own child first. If you disagree with that, I'll go ahead and call you a liar to your face right now.

TheRedneck

Strange that you would claim I was saying that when that is not what I was saying?

Following with an answer to the claim that you invented for me doesn't make it any more credible a response.

originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: ketsuko

Normal people have compassion for others, but no one places the well-being of a stranger above that of their own family. No one. Anyone who claims to is a liar.

That is a fallacious argument.

It is not a binary, either/or choice between strangers and your family.

Your tax dollars are spent protecting strangers every minute of every day in the form of Police, Fire and Military protection among other things.

That does not mean that you prioritize the safety of strangers above your own.

The dishonesty of the argument begins with the assumption the choice is binary.

Would you say this?:
"The reality is that unless it is me, my family, my child dying....the alarm isn't there for me. Are there sad stories? Bet your ass their are. That is called "life". But LAW ENFORCEMENT has caused a few sad stories, too. "