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Obamacare Thrown Out by Judge (Unconstitutional), Raising Insurance Uncertainty

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posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 07:50 PM
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a reply to: links234

Nope, it doesn't. Not sure how anyone can arrive at that conclusion.




posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 07:52 PM
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a reply to: ketsuko

Not to mention it was sold to the American people as it was NOT a tax, then sold to SCOTUS as a tax.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 07:54 PM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I'm confused how removing the individual mandate would make it unconstitutional. I'm also confused why our #1 national priority isn't getting our healthcare costs more in line with nations who aren't owned and controlled by corporate interests.

Health insurance wouldn't be such a big deal if healthcare didn't cost orders of magnitude more in the US than everywhere else.

We pay crazy amounts for health insurance, and still have to bankrupt ourselves if anything goes wrong. I refuse to go in for anything other than a routine annual exam unless I would otherwise likely end up dead or disabled.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 08:18 PM
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Here's a thread I made not to long ago, related to this topic.

USA Health Care Delusion - Are you Afflicted?

www.abovetopsecret.com...

And one about Obama Care Shills, when they were trying to push it through.

www.abovetopsecret.com...

Interesting where the money trails went.




Let’s look deeper. When ObamaCare came out, I did some deep digging into the money trail, and corporate interests, because I knew it smelled like a load of BS.



edit on 15-12-2018 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 08:58 PM
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Here's a typically biased article from Yahoo......

Outraged Democrats vow to challenge court ruling undercutting Obamacare

This will end up in the Supreme Court for sure 😎



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 08:59 PM
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originally posted by: c2oden
If it has been declared unconstitutional, will people who paid the mandate get refunds?
Will people who did not file taxes because of the mandate, still have to pay?


Even more so, what happens to the Medicaid expansion under Obamacare? Does the Fed keep paying out to those states or are those states immediately now 100% on the hook for those monies because the whole thing ought to be null and void.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 09:01 PM
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a reply to: dogstar23

Nations with nationalized health care also have price controls because the whole thing is a government monopoly. They also have scarcity and rationing if you really look into their systems.

That is the trade-off we would have to accept to have such a system.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 09:04 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: TheRedneck

Understood.

So if you're sick, # off.



That seems to be the general consensus in the US when your neighbour is sick, no one else cares, sad really



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 09:05 PM
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a reply to: Sookiechacha


Ergo, my point that "everyone deserves medical treatment" is demonstrably valid in emergency situations, as opposed to my fellow posters who argue that "no one has the RIGHT to medical care".

Just because someone may deserve something, does not make it a right. You seem bent on making sure I will disagree with you. And you got it. Now you're complaining that I did so.

I laid out exactly what I thought, and all you have done so far is twist it around into some sort of ill-conceived talking point that begs for another disaster in healthcare. I don't think you even know what Obamacare did.

Obamacare instituted an individual mandate that required people to buy health insurance whether they wanted it or not. That's wrong on several levels. First, it's not the government's place to tell anyone what to spend their money on. We have taxes to ensure that social needs are met. What's left after taxes, the government has no control over.

Second, the mandate demanded policies that met some arbitrary minimum requirements. So not only were those people who didn't want to spend their money on healthcare forced to buy healthcare, they were limited as to which policies they could buy. The more a healthcare plan pays, the more it costs. That in itself raised costs to the consumer, because everyone was forced to buy expensive policies with riders they would never use. Men had to have maternity insurance... men by definition don't go through maternity! Women had to be covered for prostate problems. Women don't have a prostate!

Thirdly, by demanding that everyone in the country purchase health insurance, there was no incentive for insurers to keep their profit margins low to attract customers. Price fixing was rampant. Yes, I know, that's illegal... but prove it in a court of law. You can't. To prove price-fixing, you have to essentially get someone in the upper echelon of the insurance companies to admit to the crime, risking jail time and massive fines, and losing their bonuses, jobs, pensions, and anything else their company promised them. The result was that insurance policies inflated like crazy as insurers padded their pockets. The fewer insurers in a state, the easier this became, because there were fewer companies to deal with in any price fixing... indeed, many states had one single company left to insure, meaning there could be legal price fixing.

Fourthly, the burden was placed on the states, but it wasn't required by the states. Many states simply chose not to participate because they couldn't afford it. That left the citizens in those states who needed help out in the cold. Quite a few made more than their state allowed for Medicaid, but not enough to qualify for Federal assistance to pay policies they couldn't afford.

Fifthly, those subsidies were paid by taxes... hidden taxes placed on everything from hospitals to medicines. It also placed several regulations on doctors, as has already been pointed out to you. Between these, the cost of healthcare itself had to rise to compensate, and higher costs again mean higher insurance rates.

Sixthly, the program gave healthcare to people who did not understand how healthcare even worked. People would go into emergency rooms for a common cold, which led to high wait times and increased costs since additional doctors and nurses had to be staffed. It also raised costs because the claims going into the insurers went up... emergency rooms cost much more than a doctor's visit, and higher costs mean higher premiums.

Seventhly, Obamacare required pre-existing conditions to be accepted. The presence of a pre-existing condition guarantees that the policy holder will have additional expenses, and more expense equals higher premiums.

Now... IF healthcare is not paid for by the taxpayer except under medical emergencies, what will that do about the above problems in Obamacare?

Firstly, no person would be required to buy insurance. That would fix the Constitutionality argument. If a service is to be provided, it should be paid for with taxes, not with mandates on the spending of after-tax monies.

Secondly, everyone would have the exact same catastrophic coverage, but at no cost other than taxes. Those who want insurance can then shop for the coverage they need for non-catastrophic care.

Thirdly, the lack of any individual mandate means that insurers would have to either drop their rates or deal with fewer policies. The insurance game is one of spreading risk, and the fewer the policies the less the risk can be spread. No insurer will allow that to happen without first cutting profit margins; the alternative is to take a huge risk of bankruptcy.

Fourthly, the states would not be involved. Medicaid could actually become obsolete, because those they insure would be covered already under an expanded catastrophic plan. Everything would be administered through the Federal government.

Fifthly, the costs for administration would likely be less than the costs of insurers price-fixing and increasing their profit margins, plus the cost of administering the bloated Obamacare bureaucracy.

Sixthly, non-catastrophic care would not be covered. If someone went to the emergency room because they had a cold, they get to deal with the bill collectors. Yet, catastrophic care would still be provided.

Seventhly, all catastrophic pre-existing conditions would be covered by definition.

 


Now, there's a plan that could work. It fixes seven major problems with Obamacare and ensures that people will not die off because of a lack of health care. All it does not do is allow for abuse from people using it for minor ailments that do not really need medical treatment. And it still allows for people to purchase additional insurance to handle those minor aches and pains if they want to do so.

Yet, you don't want to hear it. You want free everything for everybody, or you'd be willing to watch people suffer who desperately need help. That's the problem: you. You want Obamacare back, so your idea of a solution is to fix it by reinstating it in all its infamy. Tough cookies. You can stop trying to make me out to be the villain here... the true villain is anyone who refuses to accept that not everything in the world is free for everyone. Even in the countries with a working universal health care system, there are restrictions on who gets to go to a hospital. There has to be. No one has the money to pay for 24/7 medical care for everyone in the country. You need to grow up and realize that.

And you can quit trying to put words in my mouth.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 09:18 PM
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a reply to: Phage

Since obamacare my premiums are up well over 100%. It has only been 4 years. The 4 years before that they were up about 30%. The 4 years before that they were only up about 20%.

Since obamacare my deductible has tripled. Before obamacare my deductible hadn't ever changed.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 10:12 PM
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originally posted by: xuenchen
Here's a typically biased article from Yahoo......

Outraged Democrats vow to challenge court ruling undercutting Obamacare

This will end up in the Supreme Court for sure 😎


WHY do Democrats want to challenge the judge's ruling, when the Federal Government, and Obama himself, said today that "nothing is changing", as a result of his ruling???



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 10:25 PM
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a reply to: Dfairlite

The ObamaCare subsidy/assistance model doesn't match real-world cost of living in the USA.
www.financialsamurai.com...

But as I pointed out in the other thread, the government (taxpayers) pays $34,000 a year per Obamacare enrollee. This inefficient entitlement is way too expensive.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 10:38 PM
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a reply to: Phage

I couldn't tell what the insurance play was going to be going into the ACA, but it has become clear to me how they plan to achieve profitability. We all knew they would figure it out and that the idea that you can cover a bunch of extra people with lots of medical expenses for little to no cost never made any sense to anyone. But here's what they're doing and why they're doing it:

They're jacking up premiums but they can't do that fast enough so they're also raising deductibles. It seems they want to push the traditional healthcare insurance buyer into plans with around a $2k deductible (likely because that's exactly how much people tend to spend on healthcare per year). What this does is makes the premium 100% profit or at least near 100%. They do this by jacking up the cost on lower deductible plans to the point that they don't make any sense. In this way they can easily forecast their profits from the average insurance customer. Then they can allocate a portion of that to the high cost individuals who may not have had health insurance before.

Here's why I think that $2k is about what the average person spends:
My company offers two plans, a traditionally low deductible (high premium) plan and a high deductible (low premium) plan.
Before obamacare:
The low deductible plan was ~$200/mo. The deductible was $500.
The high deductible plan was ~$65/mo. The deductible was $2000

The overall premium (premium plus deductible) of the low deductible plan over the high deductible plan was $120

After obamacare:
The low deductible plan is ~$450/mo. The deductible is $1,500
The high deductible plan is ~$160/mo. The deductible is $3,000

The overall premium (premium plus deductible) of the low deductible plan over the high deductible plan is $1,980

The high deductible plan offers an HSA contribution of $1,300 from the company (This is new, since obamacare's implementation) meaning your effective deductible is $1,700. So for $290/mo less you get a deductible that is $200 more for the year. So one month's premium makes up for the deductible difference. Oddly enough I hit my deductible in November/December this year. Next year, barring catastrophe, it will be December. When I was on the $500 deductible plan I was basically done with insurance costs (sans premiums) from doctors visits by march.
edit on 15-12-2018 by Dfairlite because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 10:45 PM
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I'm going to wager that most Republicans, and sane people, on ATS will be able to relate to Bill Clinton, on healthcare.

"And they're getting Whacked!"


edit on 15-12-2018 by Realtruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 10:57 AM
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a reply to: Xcathdra

I believe any discussion on court rulings about Obamacare is helped by context as to as to where in the court system the decision was made and where it heads next.

This ruling changes nothing apart from offering headlines for political purposes

This ruling: United States District Court for the Northern District of Texas

Next Appeal: 5th Circuit Court of Appeals, New Orleans.

Next Appeal after 5th Circuit: Supreme Court of the United States.

This will end at SCOTUS.

If the ruling from Northern District Texas is not overturned, insurance companies can and will to drop coverage for preexisting conditions. From a political standpoint, this is very bad for the GOP. Pre-existing health issues is not a partisan problem.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 11:00 AM
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a reply to: Extorris

Sorry, Democrats own this fiasco.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 11:01 AM
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originally posted by: carewemust

originally posted by: xuenchen
Here's a typically biased article from Yahoo......

Outraged Democrats vow to challenge court ruling undercutting Obamacare

This will end up in the Supreme Court for sure 😎


WHY do Democrats want to challenge the judge's ruling, when the Federal Government, and Obama himself, said today that "nothing is changing", as a result of his ruling???


Because "nothing changes" as long as the case is appealed and moving through the courts and a final ruling (in this case likely by SCOTUS) hasn't been settled on.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 11:13 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Extorris

Sorry, Democrats own this fiasco.


That view seems disconnected from both reality and public perception.

It would be like a murderer blaming ER doctors for the victims death for not being able to save the man the murderer shot 10 times.

The GOP is welcome to try their hardest to sell that logic to the public, but I don't believe the public agrees.

The ethics and legality of Obamacare aside, this headline is politically damaging to the GOP.

A large majority of Americans (both parties) oppose repealing Obamacare without a replacement.

Ditto with Pre-Existing Conditions.


edit on 16-12-2018 by Extorris because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 11:19 AM
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I roll with Jesus as he healed the sick and didn't charge them a dime ;-)



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 11:24 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Extorris

Sorry, Democrats own this fiasco.


Recent Fox News Poll:
www.foxnews.com...
Fox News Poll: Health care boosts Democrats in upcoming midterm elections
www.foxnews.com...

Health care is a top issue for voters.

Voters believe Democrats can better handle health care issues by a 15-point margin.

64 percent of Americans want the government to take steps to help more people get covered.

A majority of Americans believe the Affordable Care Act is “about right” or “didn’t go far enough.

55 percent of Americans say a congressional candidates positions on health care will be extremely important to their vote.

By a 2-1 margin, Americans say Republicans’ recent changes to health care laws have hurt, rather than helped, with their health care coverage and costs.







 
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