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Venezuelans regret gun ban, 'a declaration of war against an unarmed population'

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posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 07:42 PM
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a reply to: seagull

Once a government takes the weapons away, what follows is easily predictable. I think it's going to get far worse before it gets better.

Cuba has had its hand heavily in the mix.

Link

Cuba, too, is dependent upon Venezuela's vast petroleum resources. In return for subsidized oil - 40,000 barrels a day - Havana sends doctors, intelligence officials and diplomats to Caracas. President Maduro's bodyguards are also from Cuba.

"Cuba plays an important advisory role, it prevents Venezuelan isolation," says Oliver Stuenkel, a professor for international relations at Fundacao Getulio Vargas (FGV), a university in Sao Paulo, Brazil. He says that Havana has seen to it that Caracas engages in "efficient foreign policy."...

...Paradoxically, the more Venezuelans flee to neighboring Colombia, Brazil or Peru because of the crisis at home, the stronger Maduro's grip on power becomes. The mass-exodus is making it ever more difficult to organize opposition protests in the country. Now, after the convocation of the new constituent assembly, the parliament - a body in which the opposition holds the majority - has itself been stripped of power.

"The middle-class is gone, it isn't protesting any more," says Stuenkel. He predicts that the demonstrations will wither out. "The people are exhausted, they have to organize their everyday lives," he says. "And not everyone is against Maduro. Those who still get help from the government don't want to lose it."


The citizens have been beat down just like Cuba's history and made to be compliant, leave, put in prison or die. The middle class is no more as is always the case with socialism.
edit on 12/15/2018 by Blaine91555 because: (no reason given)




posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 03:30 AM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

There was, for a very short time, hope I guess you'd call it, that Cuba might, maybe, change with Fidel dying.

Guess not.

Imagine, trading in a Batista for a Castro, and things actually got worse. This is what's happened in Venezuela to a very large degree...it's been decades since they've had any sort of political stability worth calling it that.

Given that Constitutional term limits were abolished in Venezuela, and that Maduro was Chavez's VP, and protege to a large degree...things look grim for at least the immediate future.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 12:11 PM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

This part of the information you linked above got me thinking more about the "Red Scare".


Cuba, too, is dependent upon Venezuela's vast petroleum resources. In return for subsidized oil - 40,000 barrels a day - Havana sends doctors, intelligence officials and diplomats to Caracas. President Maduro's bodyguards are also from Cuba. "Cuba plays an important advisory role, it prevents Venezuelan isolation," says Oliver Stuenkel, a professor for international relations at Fundacao Getulio Vargas (FGV), a university in Sao Paulo, Brazil. He says that Havana has seen to it that Caracas engages in "efficient foreign policy."...


So all the worry about having a communist country nearby was unfounded? I don't think so, look at communist Cuba influencing Venezuela, I'd have to admit, socialist Venezuela really is heading from "Pinkos" to full on "Reds" it seems.

The Venezuela horror story supports McCarthy era paranoia of the "red devils" under every American bed. Just have a look at the 1963 House of Representatives document entitled 'Communist Goals for Taking Over America.' It contains the agenda of 45 communist techniques for converting the U.S. to communism from within. Inspired by Italian Marxist Antonio Gramsci who first proposed the idea of the "change from within" tactic to destroy capitalist nations in the early 20th Century.

The Communists have achieved most of those 45 goals that had been examined by a paranoid cold war era House of Reps. Perhaps we should have heeded the warning back then considering the bad rap that McCarthism gives to communist takeover conspiracies in today's world.

ETA: I didn't see it in the communist's goals list so here is my suggestion . . .

# 46 - Discredit or ban any information that opposes socialism and communism.

This would add nicely to # 33 - Eliminate all laws or procedures which interfere with the operation of the Communist apparatus.
edit on 16-12-2018 by MichiganSwampBuck because: Added extra comments



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 01:16 PM
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a reply to: Blaine91555
This is why we should not give up our rights to bear arms. The founding fathers had the anti tyrannical idea to protect ourselves from those who would seek harm and total control of us. Thank you for posting this. It is a reminder that every individual has the right to self defense.


I feel bad for venezuela. But this is a clear example on what would happen if socialism / communism took over. Sadly there are those who use the label of "liberalism" while supporting these types of actions. To be a true liberal is to acknowledge that we should fend for ourselves and take personal responsibility for our actions.

But that has forever lost its meaning and has faded away into socialism. I hope somehow Venezuelans find a way to resolve this issue. Thanks to socialism we have caravans seeking the land of the free, while socialism tries also to take that over.


*sighs* Sad day, even though i dont live in venezuela, i feel for those people.... but its a clear example on what would happen to us if we allow it.


S&F
edit on th2018000000Sundayth000000Sun, 16 Dec 2018 13:19:13 -0600fAmerica/ChicagoSun, 16 Dec 2018 13:19:13 -0600 by SoulSurfer because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 02:48 PM
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These are all life lessons humans learned in the past.

Being coddled so long many leaders are out of touch with reality, lost all common sense and are just completely naive to how things really work



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 02:49 PM
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originally posted by: whargoul

originally posted by: Blaine91555
I really did not want to post this in the Mud Pit, but considering the current state of this topic....

Be patient with me in replying to posts as I'm pretty busy today.


As Venezuela continues to crumble under the socialist dictatorship of President Nicolas Maduro, some are expressing words of warning – and resentment – against a six-year-old gun control bill that stripped citizens of their weapons.

“Guns would have served as a vital pillar to remaining a free people, or at least able to put up a fight,” Javier Vanegas, 28, a Venezuelan teacher of English now exiled in Ecuador, told Fox News. “The government security forces, at the beginning of this debacle, knew they had no real opposition to their force. Once things were this bad, it was a clear declaration of war against an unarmed population.”...

...A former gun store owner inside Venezuela – who told Fox News he has now been relegated to only selling fishing supplies since the ban – said he can’t sell any type of weaponry - even a slingshot - and underscored that even BB ammunition and airsoft guns are only issued to police and military officers...

...“The Venezuelan rulers – like their Cuban masters – apparently viewed citizen possession of arms as a potential danger to a permanent communist monopoly of power.”...

...The punishment for illicit carrying or selling a weapon now is 20 years behind bars.


More than three million Venzuelans have fled into neighboring Colombia since the crisis of 2015.



I can't think of a more in our faces argument against gun control and why our Constitution protects us from this exact thing happening.

With the concept of socialism being pushed now among many on the Left side of the aisle, by people who are also screaming for gun control, it is worrying. I don't think we are at the level yet of the average person on the Left wanting us disarmed but if they get too much control and keep chip, chip, chipping away at our Right, they may at some point in the future succeed.

Socialism historically never leads to anything other than something akin to Communism. It seems that's just how it is and when those in control get that kind of power over us, they always turn to the dark side.

We need to watch this ongoing drama in Venezuela and take it seriously as a lesson in what can happen. It was not that long ago that Hugo Chavez was the darling of President Carter and the extreme Left and this is his legacy. The path from Socialism to Marxism is a short one.



LINK


So Socialism = Gun Control now? Check. Why is that?

Do you have evidence to say otherwise? Because there is quite a bit of substantial evidence to show socialist governments general outlaw guns early on.
China
Russia
Australia
UK


Is it a will of the people thing? Because that would be socialism, it would be democratic, and it would be constitutional (if there were a constitutional convention and all that to remove the protections of the 2nd).

Sooooo... where are we?

Oh yeah, some sour grapes libertarian gun store owner claiming that they could have negated the results of a democratic election in Venezuela, if they just had had their guns. Kinda minimizes the whole story when you boil it down huh.

What do you have against self defense?
If the Venezuelan citizens had the ability to protect themselves from thugs they could protect themselves from a pervasive government as well.



You've got FOX news to tell you what to think though.

You do realize most of us here don't watch FOX news either? For someone parroting leftists talking points you sure take a lot of liberties assuming who "we" are.


Why is socialism bad? What is unconstitutional about expanding the social safety net? You know (I know you do because we can make lists all day and they have been posted numerous times) that we already live in a mixed socialist/capitalist country.

It's bad because no matter how morally superior you may think you are. You are incapable of taking care of everyone's needs. Inevitably someone gets marginalized with socialism and it's usually the working class.

Why are you falling into line behind the 1%?
A collectivests authoritarian telling a bunch of individualists and libertarians they follow the 1%. Oxymoron much?


Seriously, you guys need to ask yourselves that. Why cede your rights and wealth to the 1%? Because that's what you are doing when you turn your nose at free healthcare, free education, etc.

Because you can't implement these things in a nation this large and with this much diversity. Only works with minimal diversity and populations.
Did you learn nothing from Obama care?
Free things usually suck and usually end up costing someone something in the end.



If the answer is "because I want to be rich" or anything to that effect then you are a dumb dumb. Sorry to straw man that last line, but I can seriously not think of any other answer. The deck is stacked against you ever becoming a billionaire. Why not raise every bodies standards of living? Why only make the wealthy wealthier?

Spoken like a true socialist...
"This is hard! Screw this let someone else do it and I'll expect a portion of the outcome".

So what do we do when these evil rich people(who already pay the majority of taxes) all move to a nation that believes in equality of opportunity over equality of outcome? Target the middle class with your tax slavery?



Making the wealthy wealthier is all you are doing when you stand against social programs.
And dumping my money down a bureaucratic abyss doesn't? You seem confused...


Why are you allowing FOX and the rest of them fear monger you against this?
Again I think you don't really know your audience here... Most of us distrust FOX and all media. You are the one parroting MSM talking points.


Hey to be fair, the neo-libs are doing the same thing on our side, we just keep on showing them up. WE aren't allowing our side to fear monger us.

Not buying your half assed attempt to sound impartial and unbiased with your breif mention of the turds floating around the pool you are swimming in.

The right has no problem calling out the racists among their ranks. When the left starts to disavow things like antifa or blm then I will believe silly little statements like this.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 04:59 PM
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a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

McCarthy and his shenanigans certainly helped out the wrong side. That idiot was going after people who believed in the idea of textbook communism, an impossible to accomplish ideal that had not a thing to do with the reality of communism and what it turns into, a single party rule with a false middle class made up of brown nosing loyalists. McCarthy deserves the scorn.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 05:04 PM
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a reply to: seagull

I'm undecided on how I feel about opening up trade and travel to Cuba completely in the same way as China. It might just be the right answer to slowly draw them into a more democratic form of government by introducing capitalism as has happened in China. China is well on its way to becoming something quite different than it was. 50 or 100 years from now, China may be indistinguishable from the West.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 05:19 PM
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a reply to: SoulSurfer

Both the Left and Right have their dark sides that are equally dangerous. Venezuela is an example of when things go way, way too far to the Left. I have no doubt if the wrong element of the Right took it that far, they would also disarm the population. At some point the far Left and Right meet. I see the problem as extremism itself. When political ideology is indistinguishable from an all controlling theocratic government, where all decisions of right and wrong come from the state, enforced by the state.

All governments fear their citizens.



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 12:58 AM
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a reply to: Blaine91555

So am I.

I know a few Cuban expats who fled Cuba under Castro. The absolute hate the hold for that man is, to put it mildly, frightening.

They all thought that once Batista was gone, things would get better for middle class. Instead, there is no Middle class in Cuba anymore.

I'm betwixt and between as well. My friends haven't been home in over 50 years, yet are still under sentence in abstensia for "crimes against the state", or words to that effect. The death of Fidel hasn't changed that. So, I'd have to come down on the no part of that equation.



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 12:59 AM
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a reply to: Blaine91555




All governments fear their citizens.


All governments should fear their citizens. When they don't, is when we get tyranny, or the movement towards it.



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 05:03 AM
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originally posted by: SocratesJohnson
The nra should do a gun drop

Like they did for UK population was trying to defend against the Germans

Or how America dropped guns in for the free French(yellow vest of yesteryear) against the Germans.

Why are the Germans always trying to destroy other nation states...




Nowhere have I read the NRA dropped guns to the British, where on earth did you get that idea ? it would have been next to impossible.



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 05:48 AM
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originally posted by: seagull
a reply to: Blaine91555




All governments fear their citizens.


All governments should fear their citizens. When they don't, is when we get tyranny, or the movement towards it.


That's the problem. Government's that fear their people are not representing the people.

The problems in Venezuela are due to corruption, not Socialism. To think that guns can solve a corruption problem in government is folly. The government is always more powerful than the people. Government's only back down from a violent mob due to either global peer pressure or leadership's empathy. Not because they fear a population that they can poison, bomb, isolate, debase, rape, starve, terrorize, etc.

The current situation in Venezuela reminds me of the Siege of Jerusalem, in 70AD. Roman soldiers surrounded the walled city, and wouldn't let anyone in or out, no trade whatsoever. According to historians, it got so bad for the residents of the city that people turned to cannibalism.

The situation in Venezuela is a conveniently planned attack on humanity. No more, no less. There is no reason for the people of Venezuela to be experiencing such suffering in this day and age, if it wasn't a planned assault on human dignity for all the little people of the globe to see. Their plight is now as an example that all kinds of people can project and point fingers of blame in a 359.5 degree circle, ignoring the 1% calous, elite puppet masters, behind the curtain.


edit on 17-12-2018 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 07:05 AM
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originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: MichiganSwampBuck

McCarthy and his shenanigans certainly helped out the wrong side. That idiot was going after people who believed in the idea of textbook communism, an impossible to accomplish ideal that had not a thing to do with the reality of communism and what it turns into, a single party rule with a false middle class made up of brown nosing loyalists. McCarthy deserves the scorn.



Yeah, that is basically what I was getting at in my post. There really is a factual basis for a number of communist conspiracies, but McCarthy's zealous attack on the red devils made it easy to call any of those theories McCarthyism. The communists really get a big pass with that type of stigma, it's almost like being called a racist for not supporting the red agenda. You notice their activity and they start crying McCarthy!



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 07:10 AM
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a reply to: Sookiechacha

Rain is good, right? It gives us clean water, makes plants grow, and cleans the air.

In December of 1999, Los Corales in Venezuela was blessed with 3 feet of rainfall in just over 2 days. The resulting floods and mudslides killed between 10,000 and 30,000 people, washing away entire towns. Was that good?

Oh, you say, the rain wasn't the problem... those deaths were caused by flooding and mudslides. No... the flooding and mudslides were caused by the rain, so the rain caused the deaths. In the same way, a little socialism can be a good thing, but too much can be a disaster.

You say Socialism isn't the problem; corruption is. I say, when in the history of the world has there been any society which was even close to total socialism that did not also become corrupt? I know of none. Socialism by it's very nature makes people completely subservient to a controlling government, and all governments are corrupt in direct proportion to how subservient their people are. The more socialism, the more corruption.

All governments also exist to control the people... that is their purpose. Some control is good... no one wants a return to the Wild West, and no one wants to live in a world that completely ignores the poor. Too much? That's bad, and that's the point of Venezuela. When armed, a group of people are much stronger than they are unarmed, and since there are always many times as many people as there are government officials, the numbers greatly favor the people. Against a government force of 1000 armed soldiers, 100,000 unarmed civilians have no chance. Against that same group of armed soldiers, 10,000 armed people do have a chance.

A government that is following the will of a majority of its citizens has nothing to fear; people will not rise up in great numbers as long as the evils they suffer are sufferable. But when the government goes completely rogue and those evils become too great, the only way to correct the problems is through an overthrow. As long as the population is armed, they have that option, as terrible as it may be. Disarm them and you effectively remove that option and promote corruption. After all, if the government has nothing to fear, they have nothing to contain their most base desires.

TheRedneck



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 09:53 AM
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a reply to: TheRedneck



As long as the population is armed, they have that option, as terrible as it may be. Disarm them and you effectively remove that option and promote corruption. After all, if the government has nothing to fear, they have nothing to contain their most base desires.


Maybe 100 years ago, but not today. It would take a military coep for its citizens to overthrow the American Government.

edit on 17-12-2018 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 10:17 AM
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a reply to: Sookiechacha




That's the problem. Government's that fear their people are not representing the people.


Stuff and nonsense.

When a politician, of any ilk, fears for their job via election, they would tend, would they not, to do that job of representing a tad bit better??

When does a bureaucracy heavy govt. represent anyone...other then itself, I mean??

A truly representative government should fear me when they cease representing me. My vote first, and hopefully only...but later, if they still do not toe my line, then yes, they should fear my physical wrath.

Moduro is "representing" no one but himself, and his sycophants. Aggrandizing himself on the backs of the people he's supposedly leading. That is a dictatorship--color it otherwise though some will, and do.
edit on 12/17/2018 by seagull because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 11:01 AM
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a reply to: seagull



When a politician, of any ilk, fears for their job via election, they would tend, would they not, to do that job of representing a tad bit better??


No, not necessarily, especially a corrupt politician. They sure don't take that road right now. They just lie harder.

Besides, when we talk about 2nd Amendment remedies, a politician's job is not what is at stake, it's their life. Fear breeds contempt, not healthy respect.



A truly representative government should fear me when they cease representing me.


What about you should they fear, exactly?
edit on 17-12-2018 by Sookiechacha because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 11:03 AM
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What gun confiscation by the government didn't work out for the best?


I think this might be fake news.

Only the Govt should have guns then we can all be safe and live in Utopia.



posted on Dec, 17 2018 @ 11:06 AM
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originally posted by: Sookiechacha
a reply to: TheRedneck



As long as the population is armed, they have that option, as terrible as it may be. Disarm them and you effectively remove that option and promote corruption. After all, if the government has nothing to fear, they have nothing to contain their most base desires.


Maybe 100 years ago, but not today. It would take a military coep for its citizens to overthrow the American Government.


As a vet, I can tell you if the citizenry rose up against the government over legitimate tyranny, and the government ordered the military to stop them, most of us would not comply. The gun control line that "well the government has aircraft carriers and nukes so the 2nd amendment is pointless" doesn't hold water. Most of the military wouldn't side with a tyrannical government in a civil war.
edit on 17 12 18 by face23785 because: (no reason given)



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