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Worst of all Brexit Scenarios

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posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: DoctorBluechip

Let's make this very perfectly clear the UK never, never signed the Schengen agreement for free movement of people in the EU. That alone is down to the British government allowing it to happen. They could have stopped that anytime they wanted. And it was also the same with non- EU migrants, they were NOT forced on the UK by the EU that again was a British government decision. Which they could have stopped anytime they wanted.
Ah well, we'll have our sovereignty what ever the f### that is.


But isn't free movement of labour one of the four freedoms : to be part of the club you have to accept the four pillars : the free movement of goods capital services and labour within the zone . The British govt couldnt have said no to free movement of labour, surely ?




posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 01:48 PM
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originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?

If you have to rely on a larger governing body than your own country's for those things, it's possible that you should not be a sovereign nation.

Just something to consider*.












* and I really do mean "consider," not just knee-jerk react to it

He's Scottish mate, the majority of UK ATS members who are crying about Brexit are Scottish, they want to be ruled by Brussels and adopt the Euro currency, that ain't independence. They are too cowardly to try real independence from the EU with the UK.
Cowards, not Bravehearts. Too cowardly to leave the UK lol, how many referendums do they need?
....they do like multiple referendums though, in between whinging about everything.
edit on 14-12-2018 by CornishCeltGuy because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: DoctorBluechip

originally posted by: crayzeed
a reply to: DoctorBluechip

Let's make this very perfectly clear the UK never, never signed the Schengen agreement for free movement of people in the EU. That alone is down to the British government allowing it to happen. They could have stopped that anytime they wanted. And it was also the same with non- EU migrants, they were NOT forced on the UK by the EU that again was a British government decision. Which they could have stopped anytime they wanted.
Ah well, we'll have our sovereignty what ever the f### that is.


But isn't free movement of labour one of the four freedoms : to be part of the club you have to accept the four pillars : the free movement of goods capital services and labour within the zone . The British govt couldnt have said no to free movement of labour, surely ?


Schengen area is separate but related to free movement of Labour.

Basically Frenchman can move to Germany or UK Only difference is needs to show passport when going to UK.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 01:57 PM
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originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: SlapMonkey

originally posted by: ScepticScot
Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?

If you have to rely on a larger governing body than your own country's for those things, it's possible that you should not be a sovereign nation.

Just something to consider*.












* and I really do mean "consider," not just knee-jerk react to it

He's Scottish mate, the majority of UK ATS members who are crying about Brexit are Scottish, they want to be ruled by Brussels and adopt the Euro currency, that ain't independence. They are too cowardly to try real independence from the EU with the UK.
Cowards, not Bravehearts. Too cowardly to leave the UK lol, how many referendums do they need?
....they do like multiple referendums though, in between whinging about everything.


Want to be in EU not Euro.

Nothing to do with cowardice or 'braveheaet', just recognise the massive benefits of being in EU.

edit on 14-12-2018 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:11 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:12 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

While true we have large trade with the EU, 60 plus of the UK trade is with countries outside of the EU although we are stuck to certain rules and laws that the EU created. They take maybe forty plus percent of our trade and besides losing us is a huge chunk of their trade, we buy more from them than they do from us, again this has been said time and again losing us on no deal or offering such a bad deal that we walk will have a huge damaging effect on the EU for the foreseeable future.

I honestly think a trade deal will come but first I think and will stick to my guns that we should leave FIRST and then do trade deals, the closer to the end date the more willing they are to do a serious deal and not one that they know wont pass. The EU are known for last minute almost last second trade deals.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:15 PM
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a reply to: DoctorBluechip

I think most major nations like the US, UK etc. are known as 'Most favoured' but I do think that WTO rules are meant to be a safety net for all nations that don't have a trade deal and having just spoken to a friend who knows a little more than I do I was told 'The WTO uses international law to make sure all countries who want to trade are able to trade at some basic level. It's only used as a basic tariff so that it can be built on and even slashed but you're not allowed to favour a single nation over another so any deal you make with one country must be on the table with another, though again all is negotiable so one deal for all isn't actually law'.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:19 PM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:20 PM
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a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Reminds me of the Benjamin Franklin quote: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety."



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:26 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Wow, a comment without substance. I expected consideration or knee-jerk defending...I don't know how to respond...

Keep in mind, you are two 'unions' deep...EU and UK.

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." -- Benjamin Franklin.

And please don't misconstrue my comments as thinking that many Americans' adoration for the nanny state or the UN is a whole lot different, I'm just making a point.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:26 PM
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originally posted by: Dwoodward85
a reply to: ScepticScot

While true we have large trade with the EU, 60 plus of the UK trade is with countries outside of the EU although we are stuck to certain rules and laws that the EU created. They take maybe forty plus percent of our trade and besides losing us is a huge chunk of their trade, we buy more from them than they do from us, again this has been said time and again losing us on no deal or offering such a bad deal that we walk will have a huge damaging effect on the EU for the foreseeable future.

I honestly think a trade deal will come but first I think and will stick to my guns that we should leave FIRST and then do trade deals, the closer to the end date the more willing they are to do a serious deal and not one that they know wont pass. The EU are known for last minute almost last second trade deals.


The reality is that we will continue to buy from.The EU, but at higher cost to us as we have little practical alternative. . The EU will still bury from us, but probably less due to tariffs.

The real loss will be from investment spending which will certainly want to be inside the single market.

A no deal exit will have a small detrimental affect on EU, it will have a massive detrimental affect on the UK.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:29 PM
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There is no substance to the reply as there was no real point to your original post. The UK benefits massively from being in the EU, it's as simple as that.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:31 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:36 PM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.


Because you are making a stupid binary argument. No one is claiming the EU is perfect , but being out of the EU is probably going to be a lot worse.

What the EU has got to do with Spain's human right record is that countries want the benefits of EU membership therefore have to at least aim for the EU standards of Human rights.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:41 PM
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originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.


Because you are making a stupid binary argument. No one is claiming the EU is perfect , but being out of the EU is probably going to be a lot worse.

What the EU has got to do with Spain's human right record is that countries want the benefits of EU membership therefore have to at least aim for the EU standards of Human rights.





I'll tell you one thing that being out of the EU will do, allow people in the UK to elect a government who can abolish VAT on household fuel so thousands of old people don't die every winter.

The peace loving, super democratic EU prohibits anyone from abolishing VAT on household fuel (and many other things too).

I want to be able to vote for people who can change things, not be restricted to voting for people who can't change anything for the better because an unelected bunch of toffs in Brussels wont let them.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:46 PM
link   

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.


Because you are making a stupid binary argument. No one is claiming the EU is perfect , but being out of the EU is probably going to be a lot worse.

What the EU has got to do with Spain's human right record is that countries want the benefits of EU membership therefore have to at least aim for the EU standards of Human rights.





I'll tell you one thing that being out of the EU will do, allow people in the UK to elect a government who can abolish VAT on household fuel so thousands of old people don't die every winter.

The peace loving, super democratic EU prohibits anyone from abolishing VAT on household fuel (and many other things too).

I want to be able to vote for people who can change things, not be restricted to voting for people who can't change anything for the better because an unelected bunch of toffs in Brussels wont let them.


Or the UK government could pay a decent livable pension. Something entirely in its own control.

Dont blame EU for UK government failings.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:48 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.


Because you are making a stupid binary argument. No one is claiming the EU is perfect , but being out of the EU is probably going to be a lot worse.

What the EU has got to do with Spain's human right record is that countries want the benefits of EU membership therefore have to at least aim for the EU standards of Human rights.





I'll tell you one thing that being out of the EU will do, allow people in the UK to elect a government who can abolish VAT on household fuel so thousands of old people don't die every winter.

The peace loving, super democratic EU prohibits anyone from abolishing VAT on household fuel (and many other things too).

I want to be able to vote for people who can change things, not be restricted to voting for people who can't change anything for the better because an unelected bunch of toffs in Brussels wont let them.


Or the UK government could pay a decent livable pension. Something entirely in its own control.

Dont blame EU for UK government failings.


Or, you know, not be in the EU so that who we vote for actually matters?

Why on earth is it ok to NOT be able to vote for people who can cut taxes? That's pretty much the base level of democracy.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:56 PM
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Noted yesterday how that Junker and Tusk remember to call themselves 'Brussels' on the premise that they're dealing with 'Westminster' .

They're not 'Brussels' , they're not 'The EU' but they are 'The 'EPP' .' The Party that no one gets to vote for or against .



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 03:00 PM
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originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.


Because you are making a stupid binary argument. No one is claiming the EU is perfect , but being out of the EU is probably going to be a lot worse.

What the EU has got to do with Spain's human right record is that countries want the benefits of EU membership therefore have to at least aim for the EU standards of Human rights.





I'll tell you one thing that being out of the EU will do, allow people in the UK to elect a government who can abolish VAT on household fuel so thousands of old people don't die every winter.

The peace loving, super democratic EU prohibits anyone from abolishing VAT on household fuel (and many other things too).

I want to be able to vote for people who can change things, not be restricted to voting for people who can't change anything for the better because an unelected bunch of toffs in Brussels wont let them.


Or the UK government could pay a decent livable pension. Something entirely in its own control.

Dont blame EU for UK government failings.


Or, you know, not be in the EU so that who we vote for actually matters?

Why on earth is it ok to NOT be able to vote for people who can cut taxes? That's pretty much the base level of democracy.


EU VAT rates are part of ensuring fair competition. I can give a good argument against VAT in general but that's a separate argument.

UK government charges above minimum rates on most forms of VAT so hardly EU keeping up the rates.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 03:04 PM
link   

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SprocketUK

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: SlapMonkey
Why any sovereign nation would prefer to be a part of such a beast as the EU escapes me.


Other than being economically better off, better human rights protections, freedom of movement and longest period of peace in western European history.

Other than that?


Zero hour contracts and foodbanks are all here now after 40 odd years of being in the EU (and it's predecessors)

All those Catalans who got beat up by the state police for just voting, must thank their lucky stars that the EU protected their human rights, eh?

Nothing to do with Nato and MAD then? Haha.




And we likely to get a lot more with a Tory government free of EU rules. Being in EU doesn't mean utopia, however being out is ikely to be much worse.

Look at Spain human rights record pre EU membership.

Lots of wars around the world with NATO & MAD but not between EU members.


The point is, you are pushing a fairytale, a lie, about how the EU looks after poor people, protects civil rights and prevents war. All bollox, as usual.

What does what Franco did have to do with the EU sitting on it's hands while the Spanish government sends thousands of cops to beat and intimidate voters?

France and UK have Nukes, that's why there hadn't been another European war, obviously.


Because you are making a stupid binary argument. No one is claiming the EU is perfect , but being out of the EU is probably going to be a lot worse.

What the EU has got to do with Spain's human right record is that countries want the benefits of EU membership therefore have to at least aim for the EU standards of Human rights.





I'll tell you one thing that being out of the EU will do, allow people in the UK to elect a government who can abolish VAT on household fuel so thousands of old people don't die every winter.

The peace loving, super democratic EU prohibits anyone from abolishing VAT on household fuel (and many other things too).

I want to be able to vote for people who can change things, not be restricted to voting for people who can't change anything for the better because an unelected bunch of toffs in Brussels wont let them.


Or the UK government could pay a decent livable pension. Something entirely in its own control.

Dont blame EU for UK government failings.


Or, you know, not be in the EU so that who we vote for actually matters?

Why on earth is it ok to NOT be able to vote for people who can cut taxes? That's pretty much the base level of democracy.


EU VAT rates are part of ensuring fair competition. I can give a good argument against VAT in general but that's a separate argument.

UK government charges above minimum rates on most forms of VAT so hardly EU keeping up the rates.



VAT in it's entirety is a risible tax that unfairly hits those on lower incomes.
Prior to being in the EU we had sales tax, but that was limited to far fewer purchases than VAT applies to.

If a government is going to tax you, you should have the right to vote them out of office.
No member of the EU has that right, it is fundamentally undemocrcatic.







 
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