POLITICS: US Threatens Canada's Airspace: Ignores International Law

The Western Canadian Provinces & Territories voted for the Conservative Party last Election. The conservative Party backed missle defence 100%. The Liberals only have a minority gov't and keep control by an alliance with the NDP and kissing the "Bloc's" a$$. Please remember that these left wing nut jobs that try to paint Canada with one brush rule Canada as a dictatorship when dealing with the west. Each province should have been given the choice of whether or not to be part of america's missle defence plan instead of being dictated to by liberal Ontario, Self-Absorbed Quebec and the Maritimes.
Ontario (11 million people)
Quebec (7 million people)
Western Canada Combined (9 million but growing fast)
Eastern Canada (I'm not sure but PEI only has 23500 people but gets equal representation as Saskatchewan who has a million)
Our electoral system needs to be changed so the left wing nut jobs don't have the ability to dictate their adgenda!
Western Canada wants a powerfull military, we want missle defence, & we supported American during the Iraq war. We were willing to send our own sons & daughters as America's ally but the Liberals Gov't wanted to appease Quebec who were in a provincial election. Quebec took Frances stand on Iraq. The problem was not that France cared about people, they were covering their butts for secretly buying oil from Saddam and ignoring U.N. Sanctions. Everyone knows about the corrupt oil for food program. France & Germany were the most guilty.
The nazi's were right wing fundamentalist nationalists. But now the left is becoming exactly what they say they are against. For example if a bus crashed into a parking lot accidently killing people at an environmental protest rally the world would morn the death of the victims. BUT if that bus was carrying nazi skin heads on the way to a KKK rally, the left would cheer and celebrate their deaths. It doesn't matter if these kind of people die or their children are killed or left to be raised by the state. This is exaclty how bad everyone is being brainwashed by the left wing fanatics. It is okay to hate a certain segment of the population if they disagree with the liberal democratic adgenda. You left wing nut jobs have become exactly like the nazi's in your blind hate of christians and white trash. You are just as evil and can't even see it. All HATE IS WRONG PERIOD. You are the next fanatical fundamentalist regime bent on enforcing your view of how the world should be run and you can't even see it.
WESTERN CANADA LOVES AMERICA and is DEEPLY ASHAMED & EMBARRASSED of our GOV't.

as posted by subz
I expected more than derisive posts from you seekerof

Subz, sorry to disappoint you, k. I'm only human and when words, indications, and assumptions are placed into my mouth or implied upon me, I will defend and react, just as any other member would.

You mention:

Intercepting inbound nuclear weapons doesnt result in a puff of smoke and "phews" all round.

You must have missed the CNN, MSNBC, FOX, NBC, ABC, etc film footage from the 1st Gulf War when those Patriots fired on those Scuds. The ones that were hit did do as you described and did have what remained of them fall to the ground.

Its not in the same league of deathrates as if it detonates, granted, but the shield has the potential to kill Canadians. Its a theorhetical argument but theres still consequences to these actions.

Again, as asked previously, are you implying that if the US intercepts a/an ICBM in space and the debris/warhead falls into Canadian airspace, its the US's fault?

Ask yourself how you'd feel if an interceptor came crashing down into your home killing your family? "Oh gee im unlucky! Seems Bush saved his own arse by shooting down a missile with his name all over it over my head. Serves me right" Why should it be the Canadians to pay for Americans antagonising the entire planet?

You must think that this is all a game? In the event of a multiple ICBM launch or just one, if it is intercepted and its debris falls on my house, please don't expect me to run out and blame the ones that knocked it out of the sky! Thats like blaming the one that just saved my arse from being vaporized. Personally, I would be blaming the one that launched that ICBM, not the one that prevented it from vaporizing tens of thousands and then having the fallout kill tens of thousands more.

Also its extremely unlikely that a massive nuclear attack would be carried out on the USA. MAD assures this. Its most probable that a rogue state such as N.Korea or a terrorist organisation fires a single missile at the US.

Perhaps, but then the argument would be that IF a nation such as NKorea was stupid enough to launch a SINGLE warhead, why not unload the entire arsenal? Your going to get trounced anyhow, so whats the difference? Its all or nothing time when you use nukes, period.

So all your arguments about no one being left alive to prosecute the US for killing indescriminately is flawed. By the way the US's long standing policy of replying in kind to any attacks on the US would call for a nuclear strike on the party responsible.

Question: You think the US is the only one with this policy? If I am not mistaken, there are 8-9 other nations that would act in kind or have such a like policy?

How does that work if the nuclear weapon was fired from say London from terrorists that infiltrated our borders? Does the Americans launch a nuke at London? Or does it do its homework, find out who was responsible and kill only those responsible instead of entire cities?

That remains to be seen, doesn't it?




seekerof

Originally posted by billybob
why did some american mouthpiece say we are giving up soveriegnty by not signing on?

American mouthpiece? That's funny. I was born in America yes, but most of my family is Canadian. My father is from Toronto. It's funny, billybob, how we've agreed on issues before, and I wasn't an "American mouthpiece", but as soon as an opinion differs, I'm a droning Bush zombie. Sorry, not the case. This American mouthpiece voted against Bush. But unlike so many one dimensional folks on this board, I form my own opinions on issues, conservative on some issues, liberal on many others, they are not dictated to me by a party line.

we are exercising soveriegnty.

No, you're not. You're government just wants you to believe that. You, along with Mexico, have given up your airspace to NORTHCOM.

[edit on 26-2-2005 by 27jd]

Originally posted by Seekerof
Subz, sorry to disappoint you, k. I'm only human and when words, indications, and assumptions are placed into my mouth or implied upon me, I will defend and react, just as any other member would.

You're also a moderator and I never put words into your mouth. Yet you mocked my post with cheap, childish grandstanding.

And how many times are you going to claim that the interception will be in space? The ballistic path is symetrical and it will not just fall vertically down on an American city. If it did then your cities would of been fired on from UFO's. The missile will come down in an arc, the quickest place to intercept it will be on its arc of decent. Which will most likely be within our atmosphere over Canada.

Also do you actually think comparing a Patriot intercepting a SCUD to a future Missile Shield interceptor exploding an ICBM is worth taking the time to type?

[edit on 26/2/05 by subz]

Good ole billybob to the rescue, eh?

You mention:

this is between canada and the u.s., not seekerof and soficrow. politicizing? give me a break.

Billybob, if that was the case, it wouldn't be discussed and politicized here, huh?

why did some american mouthpiece say we are giving up soveriegnty by not signing on? isn't that oxymoronic logic? we are exercising soveriegnty. our problem is, like said american mouthpiece, we have a military/industrial representative(mckenna) arsehole making decisions beyond his authority, like a dictator, in his spare time.

Excuse me, but you really need to hit some past topic threads on this and the links provided, and perhaps take the time to give lip service to your favorite search engine and read that despite what a US Ambass. to Canada said, that there are Canadians saying the samething, k?

pompous meglomaniacal speil. canadian airspace is always our own. if the US violates law, that makes the u.s. war criminals(again). mr. martin, reflects the will of the people. that is what gets you elected and re-elected in a democracy. 'save his arse', HA! i guess you've forgotten about what a real democracy is like.

And this is typical billbob "pompous, meglomaniacal speil" in that "if" the US violates Canadian airspace in the event of such an ICBM occurance that goes through Canadian airspace, the US will act in its best interests, despite International Law. Cause as stated, International Law goes out the window in the event of a nation shooting off nukes.

man, you keep contradicting yourself. the airspace is either canadian, or not. it is not a function of u.s. whim.
what i find ironic is mister 'let's see a study' is telling us that there are canadians agreeing with the u.s.. there are ALWAYS people agreeing. there are white hate rallies, or star trek conventions, bee keepers clubs. the question is how many? i haven't spoken to a single canadian who wants to be in on military posturing.

No contradiction made or implied at all. your own twisting is all that is in play here. Re-read my comments again.

someone like you will probably never understand the immense pride canadians have in their little flag. only when they're in another country, mind you. it is seen as a sign to the world, 'here is an ambassador of good will'. put one on your tee shirt or back pack and it's like a free ticket to food, rides, lodging and open freindly discussion.

Someone like me has more understanding of what you imply about nationalism than you think. What is the problem is that you like other people to have national pride but not those who are outspoken Americans.

i also don't think america realises that canada doesn't stand alone. canada's an earthy analogy of babylon five. every single language and nation is represented here. attack canada, and you've got the whole world against you.

I don't think you understand that despite Canada not standing alone, that there are Canadians that feel as I do and are likewise petitioning their respective government on this matter...arguing the same that I am.
Canada is no "Babylon Five". If any nation represents a "melting pot" of all languages and cultures, it is the US. The only difference being that we don't have French speaking cities.
An attack on Canada implores the world to its side? Really? The US is not going to attack Canada and your words thus become irrelevant. Typical billybob "spiel".





seekerof

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
It is okay to hate a certain segment of the population if they disagree with the liberal democratic adgenda. You left wing nut jobs have become exactly like the nazi's in your blind hate of christians and white trash. You are just as evil and can't even see it. All HATE IS WRONG PERIOD. You are the next fanatical fundamentalist regime bent on enforcing your view of how the world should be run and you can't even see it.
WESTERN CANADA LOVES AMERICA and is DEEPLY ASHAMED & EMBARRASSED of our GOV't.

i haven't time for insane people. but, i'll give you a little.
you say ALL HATE IS WRONG, yet you hate 'left wing nut jobs'. they are all rich atheists, obviously.
have you ever even been to quebec? there's a church on every corner, and the biggest celebration of the year is st. jean de baptiste(excuse my french if i spelled it wrong). they are every bit as christian, if not more so, than the west.
eastern canada loves american, too. i personally just don't like to see rampant brainwashing spreading through both populations. very sad. the 'terrorists' are the big weapons manufacturers. this is known as 'the elephant in the room'. it's right there, but nobody can see it until they're told it's there. most willfully ignore it, even then, and rationalise all kinds of convluted logic to retain the status quo.
the west is the stronghold of KKK mentality, and you are unwittingly displaying that here. as well as ignorance.
the nazis were 'socialist', not 'right wing' these labels are very confusing, because they represent a form, and not the substance. 'right wing' america is EXACTLY the same as 'left wing' nazi germany.

have you read 1984? because 'you're soaking in it'.

Originally posted by subz
You're also a moderator and I never put words into your mouth. Yet you mocked my post with cheap, childish grandstanding.

And as a moderator, subz, I have an opinion. You can view that opinon as you wish. If it is beyond your liking and in violation, then I would simply implore you to file a complaint, so that the staff can review and correct me.

And how many times are you going to claim that the interception will be in space?

Are you claiming that the US does not intercept ICBM as they enter and transit space?

The ballistic path is symetrical and it will not just fall vertically down on an American city.

That is an understood fact. Canada still stands a chance, is susceptable, of/to having such an ICBM intercept debris fall into Canadian airspace.

The missile will come down in an arc, the quickest place to intercept it will be on its arc of decent. Which will most likely be within our atmosphere over Canada.

The US intercept policy is to intercept while transitting space. other than that, what you mention is valid.

Also do you actually think comparing a Patriot intercepting a SCUD to a future Missile Shield interceptor exploding an ICBM is worth taking the time to type?

The principles of intercept are nearly the same. The delivery systems and intercept types can and will vary.





seekerof

Originally posted by BattleofBatoche
WESTERN CANADA LOVES AMERICA and is DEEPLY ASHAMED & EMBARRASSED of our GOV't.

Geez, you sure do complain a lot. You always whine about how the West is oppressed, how you hate the government, the east, the liberals, anyone near a coast, etc. Hey, you voted, you lost, cope with it. This is democracy. Just because you're a majority in a region doesn't give you any special priviledges. I've pointed out the bum deals everyone else has - Ontario's infrastructure is crumbling, Quebec is hated by y'all, the East Coast is some twenty-odd years behind the rest of the nation, and the West Coast...well, it's the west coast. The Territories have it bad, too.

So, as dispensed so often by your foreign, conservative idols: sit down and STFU. You don't like the way we do things, LEAVE.

DE

Your either with us or against us! Invade Canada!! Canada is now supporting terrorist nuclear missles. Canada is now and enemy of the United States. Time to invade... Bush will probablytry the deplomacy thing first so you have a few months years to breath easily.

Originally posted by soficrow

Originally posted by Seekerof

And btw, bottom line to all this, whats Canada and Mr. Martin going to do 'when' and 'if' the US violates their airspace in the event of a/an ICBM(s) launched and targeted for the US? Whats the Canadians and Mr. Martin going to do about this situation, period?

Let me hold my breath here.....

So you advocate ignoring laws and treaties, and think that might equals right.

We knew that. So do the terrorists. And that's why they've chosen to use guerilla tactics to deal with you and your kind. You brought it on yourself - and now you're trying to drag everyone else down with you.

Won't work. Some of us have principles and honest values.



.

For heavens sake soficrow,

Is the US supposed to sit here watching the missile come in to destroy us because it is against International Law to take it out while we can?

Doesn't make much sense to me.:shk:

Dissapointed thats all, not wanting to lodge a complaint.

First of all an ICBM would be travelling towards its target at 6 km/sec on its decent. A SCUD, at full speed, would be travelling at 1.05km/sec.

The forces involved, not to mention the size difference of a SCUD and an ICBM would be the equivalent of comparing a firecracker to a car bomb. The explosives required to stop an ICBM are much greater than those required to stop a SCUD.

I wish Americans would just empathise for a moment.

How would Americans react if the Russians created a missile shield and negated the US's arsenal and brought MAD to its knees?

The US would cry out that its an extremely destabilising manouver.

How would Americans react if any country rode rough shod over US sovereignty? i.e. A country infering that it will violate US airspace. A country flying spying missions over the US without declaring War. A country arresting US citizens, trapesing them off to an island, torturing them and holding them without trial or informing their relatives.

Start to honestly think how you and your Government would react, then consider how the World at large views US actions and then think about the best course of action. Its called empathy, its a human trait that sets mosts of us above animals - use it once in a while, the Bible even says so "Treat those how you would like to be treated"

Seekerof,

Are you disregarding international laws and jeopardizing ties with your closest allie and largest exporter of goods to your country over a Missile Defence system, which by the time is instated, will have to deal with missiles created with the sole purpose to avoid those being fired from your beloved Missile Defence?

I do hope not.

This Missile Defence system is nothing but a physical manifestation of the plight of American oligarch suffering from thier own pyschomachia.

Deep

:shk: what exactly is the point of this thread at all that was not already discussed in the previous one albiet without the sensational headline

AT anyrate, if an ICBM is heading to North America rest assured Canada that the U.S. will intercept it and hopefully destroy it before it gets close at all.

Perhaps some people just dont "get it". If an ICBM is launched against the United States, the U.S. would like to develop a system to prevent that missile from striking the U.S. If that enemy missile is intercepted over Canada then tens of thousands of lives will be saved. There would not be a nuclear detonation. However, yes, Canadian airspace would be violated. But what about the offending attacking missile? Wouldn't that missile be also violating Canadian airspace? And wouldn't that missile be the instigating or provocating missile? Furthermore, if the attacking missile were allowed to proceed to detonate over an american city, nuclear fallout would certainly spread to contaminate huge tracts of territory -- some of which would certainly be Canadian territory? It is only logical to prevent such an attack before a missile could detonate in an atomic blast. Intercepting a missile before it could detonate would be the most logical and sensible outcome for the U.S. AS WELL AS Canada. Yes, there would probably be some wreckage, collateral damage and nuclear material to conted with but certainly not anything in comparison to an atomic or hydrogen detonation. This is in everyone's interest.

Besides, if Canada cannot protect her "sovereignty" then Canada does not have "sovereignty". The rules on this planet are changing and changing fast. It's a smaller world now. What Canada should be concerned with is in making the effort to help prevent any attack upon the North American continent.

I posted this in the other ATSNN thread, but since this is basicaly a rehash: From the Toronto Star

Prime Minister Paul Martin knows Canada stood to gain more than it lost by joining the American missile defence program.

He ran for the Liberal leadership supporting the program, recognizing that U.S. President George Bush and the U.S. Congress put a high value on it in a 9/11-traumatized world where 40 nations, including North Korea, have missiles and more are getting nuclear weapons. He knew it might affect our sovereignty.

Canada was asked for little more than political support, at this early stage. The entire North Atlantic Treaty Organization had agreed that the research program makes sense. And Canada has always participated in continental defence.

Yet Martin failed to make this case, persuasively, to Canadians. He failed to sign on early, when it would have been politically less costly. He dithered until many factors combined to force his hand. And yesterday, his weakness forced him into a humiliating climb-down.

"Canada will not take part" after all, he announced, bowing to the inevitable. Polls show fully 54 per cent of Canadians, including many in the Liberal caucus, oppose missile defence. Barely 36 per cent are in favour.
Editori al

The west in NOT a stronghold of the KKK mentality, have you been or seen this by your own eyes or are you just being brainwashed by the liberal propaganda network CBC again. We are multi racial, and religiously diverse, AND we didn't exterminate our native population like the EAST. Western Canada is full of Mosques (sp?), Hindu & Sihk temples, Buddist temples, Orthodox Greek, Orthodox Ukrainian, Orthodox Russia, Anglican, Protestant, Catholic, and every other kind of religion you can think of. There are even polygamists out here. We are extremely tolerant just not stupid and question our Gov't actions unlike you Ontario guys who voted back in a corrupt party caught with their pants down (Sponsorship Scandal?).

So basically, in what I can only liken to former California Governor Grey Davis, prostituting himself to Hispanic voters by allowing illegal aliens to have drivers license to curry favor for thier votes, Your PM has decided that continental defense has a lower priority than his re-election plans.

From the same quote above

Martin must now shake a growing perception, fed by Conservative Leader Stephen Harper and other critics, that he is a reed that bends in the wind. Being labelled "Mr. Dithers" in the Economist magazine is not the legacy to which he aspires. Ottawa's current foreign policy and defense reviews had better produce a focused vision of Canada's role in the world, one calculated to restore U.S. confidence and that of other allies.
Mr. Dithers

SO bravo for all of the grandstanding and backslapping and hearty "were making a moral stand", as well as the we have no external threats its only because we neighbor the US that we do, sleep easy that the US will continue to defend your shores and borders.

Canada can be the North American Switzerland because the U.S. shoulders the burden of continental defense and will continue to do so with or without Canada. You can continue to play Mr. Nice guy and not make hard calls.



[edit on 2/26/05 by FredT]

[edit on 2/26/05 by FredT]

Perhaps the only recourse is for Canada to allow Russian MERVs to be stationed on our border with the U.S.A...then the Missile Defence Shield will be a thing of the past...

OK...I'm kidding...

We are extremely tolerant just not stupid and question our Gov't actions unlike you Ontario guys who voted back in a corrupt party caught with their pants down (Sponsorship Scandal?).

Yeah whatever, what about NAFTA? We got reamed on that deal and that was Mulronies baby. Sponsorship Scandal is small fries compared to the unpatriotic and borderline treasonis actions of that PM while he was in office. And remember Ontario used to be very conservative, we did elect Mike Harris as our priemier.... he was a dolt, plain and simple, and alot of Ontarians still have very vivid memories of what Provincal Conservatives do while in office... In the last 20 years Ontario has had an NDP gov't a Conservative gov't and now we're back to Liberal again, we can't make up our mind as whenever we elect someone we feel could get the job done they fricken stab the people of Ontario in the back, Dalton McGuinty for instance is pretty much forcing 60% of all Chiropracters out of business as he does not believe that is a worthwhile health expense. That is just the first thing he has done, so far he hasn't pissed off that many people yet, but we'll see what happens....

Btw Botoche, who was saying that the west is a stronghold for the KKK? That is one of the silliest things I have heard in a while

Stockwell Day, the Conservative Party's foreign affairs critic, laughed off Martin's demand that Washington would have to alert Ottawa before taking out an incoming missile.

"These missiles are coming in at 4 kilometers ( 2.5 miles) a second, and if the president calls the 1-800 line and gets: `Press 1 if you want English, press 2 if you want French, press 0 if nobody's there ...' I mean, it's crazy."

Phone calls

Press 3 for directions to the nearest fallout shelter