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Will she, wont she survive vote of no confidence?

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posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:20 PM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: CornishCeltGuy

Brexiters really have to get out of the pub more often.


...and Remoaners should really learn to accept the People's vote and not pretend a second vote would be the people's vote.




posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:35 PM
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originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: djz3ro
...there are leavers shouting them down on the same live newscasts.
The nation is split and if we don't leave the EU then I'll be catching a train to London.


The only way I could afford to protest in London is if Soros pays for me to get there. Well, I could book a Megabus if I have a month's notice of any protes. Certainly couldn't afford the train. I'll be joining one of the national protests, probably Dundee or Glasgow. As much as I voted Remain, the democratic will of the people should be upheld.
Only just saw this, respect mate.

You are a breath of fresh air in the remain camp, honestly, respect.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:42 PM
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This is an interesting thread but misses the point.

This is not about the EU. It's about the Tory party.

Since 1975, when Thatcher became leader of the party and campaigned to remain in the referendum of the same year, the Tories have been at each other's throats about half a dozen things including the EU.

Thatcher kept a lid on it, pushing for a "strong Britain at the heart of Europe" but even she was taken down when preparing for the Maastricht treaty.

At the end of 1990, the gloves were off but the party, sensing it was vulnerable, chose a compromise leader to carry on Thatcher's vision. If you look closely at John Major's time in power, he managed some serious pressure from some heavyweight right wingers and pushed Thatcher's economic vision to a new level.

After the defeat of 1997, the party started tearing itself apart. It tended to choose compromise leaders time after time, balancing the centrist and right wings of the party, the social conservatives and the social liberals, the europhiles and the europhobes but, with the exception of William Hague, they were all second rate. Defeat after defeat, infighting after infighting ensued.

Cameron was less second rate but he just scraped in with some leverage from the Liberal Democrats. Socially liberal, economically to the right of Thatcher and pro-EU, he honestly, seriously, truly believed he was strong enough and visionary enough to end the party civil war. The referendum of 2016 was his way of asking for a mandate for his brand of Conservativism - he thought he would win and get enough leverage to dominate the inparty opposition for decade, much like Thatcher had done in 1979.

Remember this: he never said what kind of Brexit we were voting for. Only in and out. He didn't care what kind of Brexit we wanted, and people voted for dozens of possibilities for thousands of reasons.

He failed and the party started eating itself with a vengeance. None the Tory statesmen (and women for you SJWs out there) of the last forty years were around any more. They had retired or gone to the Lords or simply walked away. All that was left was a very shallow talent pool and again, they chose a compromise leader, one that would be least offensive to most of the party. To keep the party happy, she chose to promote a fairly motley crew as her ministers: talent did not matter, as we saw with David Davis, so much as what he meant to the party at large.

Brexit is an incredibly tough challenge, possibly the biggest political challenge since 1688 (look it up). It's tough administratively, tough politically, tough economically and it's got to please as many people as possible while delivering as much benefit as it can to the UK. So why didn't Teresa May form a National Government with Brexiteers from all parties? She was entitled to but she didn't....because it's not about the country, it's about the party.

There are dozens of varieties of Brexiteer, including the hard left who want an end to state aid rules and capital friendly arrangements, but Tory Brexiteers come in five basic flavours:

- ideological Brexiteers: the likes of Bill Cash who have never liked the EU and believe Britain should stand on its own, no matter our economic history since 1945. Incidentally, the wife knows his son and says the family are more English than John Bull.

- moral Brexiteers: the likes of Theresa May. Love her or loathe her, she is a patriarchal old school Tory. She might not like Brexit but she has to do it.

- pragmatic Brexiteers: much of the cabinet. They want to make the best of it if it means staying in power.

- opportunist Brexiteers: Boris Johnson et al. They see the crisis caused by Brexit as an opportunity for advancement.

- carpetbagger Brexiteers: Jacob Rees Mogg and most of the ERG. They each stand to make millions out of a hard Brexit and will promise us the moon and the stars to get it. Once we're out, they'll fill their boots again when they deregulate everything but the Pennines and sell everything off to whoever has the money. These are the real globalists, thinking way beyond the EU to bigger and more lucrative markets. And they don't come much more elite that Jacob Rees Mogg.

These five basic types are also the five basic types in the Tory party. They are fighting each other for the soul and future of the party, for the right to determine the direction the UK takes. Even the moral types will put party unity before nation.

It doesn't matter who won last night because the war will rumble on. Rees Mogg and Boris and crew have had their teeth handed to them in a cup twice and are out of synch with the national mood (look what's happened to UKIP) but still they will keep coming on because the stakes are high: control of the Tory party for the next ten or more years.

By putting party before nation, the whole damn lot of them have turned a crisis into a disaster. There can be no happy ending.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:46 PM
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originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy

originally posted by: djz3ro

originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: djz3ro
...there are leavers shouting them down on the same live newscasts.
The nation is split and if we don't leave the EU then I'll be catching a train to London.


The only way I could afford to protest in London is if Soros pays for me to get there. Well, I could book a Megabus if I have a month's notice of any protes. Certainly couldn't afford the train. I'll be joining one of the national protests, probably Dundee or Glasgow. As much as I voted Remain, the democratic will of the people should be upheld.
Only just saw this, respect mate.

You are a breath of fresh air in the remain camp, honestly, respect.


It's gonna feel weird though, I mean essentially I'll be protesting for Brexit even though I'm dreading it ha ha.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:47 PM
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originally posted by: lakenheath24
a reply to: SprocketUK

Honestly, she looks like a pussy in front of the EU. Thatcher would have nuked em, THEN made a deal. WW1 and 2 peeps must be asking what they fought for.



Sigh.

Thatcher was pro-Europe. Tory Remain leader in 1975? Her. Single European Act? Hers. Preparation for the Maastricht treaty? Hers. "A strong Britain at the heart of Europe"? Her. She wanted - and got - something that worked for Britain out of it.

If you want to know what people fought for in World War II, look it up, read some social histories of post war Britain. You'll be surprised.
edit on 13-12-2018 by Whodathunkdatcheese because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:54 PM
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originally posted by: [post=24028642]o
OK, so do you think it a good idea to have a PM who has never been a Minister - and in JC's case, ever had a proper job?

As in no experience of so much as running a Whelk stall?


Dear me no. JRM has a proper job.

He set up Somerset Asset Management to help rich people like him avoid tax.

Last time I looked, they had £60 million tied in Russia. That was shortly after the Skripal affair.

You may have heard recently that they've opened an office in Dublin so Brexit doesn't keep their noses out of the trough.

No, he does have a proper job...and he'd set your grandmother on fire to keep it.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 03:56 PM
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a reply to: Whodathunkdatcheese

That makes all kinds of sense, I'm even more convinced we're doing the wrong thing leaving.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 04:48 PM
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originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese
This is an interesting thread but misses the point.

This is not about the EU. It's about the Tory party.
Since 1975, when Thatcher became leader of the party and campaigned to remain in the referendum of the same year, the Tories have been at each other's throats about half a dozen things including the EU


I Didn't bother reading any further when you havent even got your facts right


Britain Joins the European Economic Community. The Treaty was signed by Edward Heath, the British Prime Minister, in Brussels on 22 January 1972. The European Communities Bill was then introduced in the House of Commons to give parliamentary assent to Britain's membership of the EEC.



EEC = European Economic Community...... a common market

NOT a political union.



Remember this: he never said what kind of Brexit we were voting for. Only in and out. He didn't care what kind of Brexit we wanted, and people voted for dozens of possibilities for thousands of reasons.


Remember this In or Out


And everyone who voted out new exactly what they voted for.



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 05:15 PM
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originally posted by: Whodathunkdatcheese


Sigh.

Thatcher was pro-Europe. Tory Remain leader in 1975? Her. Single European Act? Hers. Preparation for the Maastricht treaty? Hers. "A strong Britain at the heart of Europe"? Her. She wanted - and got - something that worked for Britain out of it.




Thatcher roasting for Major on Maastricht: Prime Minister 'put his head in the fire' by signing treaty

BARONESS Thatcher yesterday accused John Major of 'putting his head in the fire' by signing the Maastricht treaty.

The former Prime Minister used the campaign platform for a referendum on the treaty to deliver the kind of handbagging to her successor not seen since she came back from a European summit and said 'no, no, no' to Jacques Delors.

Lady Thatcher said she signed the Single European Act - which her anti-Maastricht friends regard as a lapse of judgement - because she believed the European Commission would honour its provisions which limited majority voting.

Being British, said Lady Thatcher, she had a right to expect it to be honoured. 'Our trust was not well-founded,' she said. But she could not extend that excuse to Mr Major.

'We got our fingers burnt. The most silly thing to do when you get your fingers burnt is to bring forward a bigger and worse Act which is the equivalent of putting your head in the fire.'

Lady Thatcher said Mr Major was living in 'Cloud-cuckoo-land' if he thought this week's retreat on the Bill was meaningless. She presided over a press conference with David Alton, the Liberal Democrat, and Peter Shore, the former Labour minister, to announce the results of a telephone poll on the Maastricht treaty. A total of 55,000 votes were cast, with 93.5 per cent against the treaty.

The former Prime Minister used the campaign platform for a referendum on the treaty to deliver the kind of handbagging to her successor not seen since she came back from a European summit and said 'no, no, no' to Jacques Delors.

Lady Thatcher said she signed the Single European Act - which her anti-Maastricht friends regard as a lapse of judgement - because she believed the European Commission would honour its provisions which limited majority voting.

Being British, said Lady Thatcher, she had a right to expect it to be honoured. 'Our trust was not well-founded,' she said. But she could not extend that excuse to Mr Major.

'We got our fingers burnt. The most silly thing to do when you get your fingers burnt is to bring forward a bigger and worse Act which is the equivalent of putting your head in the fire.'

Lady Thatcher said Mr Major was living in 'Cloud-cuckoo-land' if he thought this week's retreat on the Bill was meaningless. She presided over a press conference with David Alton, the Liberal Democrat, and Peter Shore, the former Labour minister, to announce the results of a telephone poll on the Maastricht treaty. A total of 55,000 votes were cast, with 93.5 per cent against the treaty.

Lady Thatcher would have no truck with European foreign policy, or a federal Europe.

Having led the demands for arming the Bosnian Muslims and bombing the Serbs, Lady Thatcher foresaw a Bosnian- style catastrophe engulfing Europe if the Major-Delors federal plan, hatched in Maastricht, was forced on the member states.

'We don't want to create the Yugoslavia of the next century . . . We have never been occupied for 1,000 years - or bossed around.'


independent.co.uk ....Sorry I cant get the link to work.


She (Mrs Thatcher) doesn't sound very pro Europe to me.




edit on 13-12-2018 by eletheia because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 13 2018 @ 07:06 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth

...and Remoaners should really learn to accept the People's vote and not pretend a second vote would be the people's vote.


People vote over and over again. It is amazing to me that one has to explain the facts of life to Brexiters.

Changing the whole direction and economic basis of a nation like the UK on the basis of a 4% margin of victory in a referendum is complete folly. Personally, I think David Cameron ought to be arrested for gross dereliction of duty while in office. If Brexit had passed by a two thirds majority, that would be different. That sort of number should have been mandated before the vote on an issue like this.

Brexiters are adamant about the legitimacy of their victory and scared to death that the public might very legitimately change its mind about such a fraudulent campaign as the Brexiters ran.



posted on Dec, 14 2018 @ 02:37 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
Personally, I think David Cameron ought to be arrested for gross dereliction of duty while in office.

As much as I hate Cameron, you can't just blame him. Philip Hammond introduced the EU Referendum Bill to the House of Commons and parliament passed the Bill (544 votes in favour and 53 votes against), then the House of Lords approved it.


Brexiters are adamant about the legitimacy of their victory and scared to death that the public might very legitimately change its mind about such a fraudulent campaign as the Brexiters ran.

The public can change their minds if they like but they can't have another vote until the first vote has been implemented. It's that simple.



posted on Dec, 15 2018 @ 10:17 PM
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a reply to: 83Liberty

Was this a private member's bill? I doubt it, but if it was it would mitigate Cameron's culpability in the matter.

You are quite wrong when you say the public can't have another vote until the first vote has been implemented. The referendum was not a binding referendum. It doesn't commit the government to do anything.

Beyond that, it can't be implemented until there is an agreement between the EU and the UK on a path forward that is acceptable to both parties. We are waiting for the UK parliament to accept the deal. The notion of a "no deal" Brexit is calamitous and is only acceptable to a very small number of MPs. Most MPs, including most Brexiters, realize that a no deal Brexit would cause incredible disruption to the UK economy.

They have enough common sense to know that Brexit does not include the option of Brentrance, as an escape from one's own national folly. In the case of Brexit, if Britain breaks it, they will have to own it.
edit on 15-12-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 12:37 AM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit
a reply to: 83Liberty
Was this a private member's bill? I doubt it, but if it was it would mitigate Cameron's culpability in the matter.

en.wikipedia.org...


You are quite wrong when you say the public can't have another vote until the first vote has been implemented. The referendum was not a binding referendum. It doesn't commit the government to do anything.

OK let me rephrase as you took my words literally. They could have another referendum, but it would be democratically and morally wrong to do so, before the first vote is implemented, in my opinion.


Beyond that, it can't be implemented until there is an agreement between the EU and the UK on a path forward that is acceptable to both parties. We are waiting for the UK parliament to accept the deal. The notion of a "no deal" Brexit is calamitous and is only acceptable to a very small number of MPs. Most MPs, including most Brexiters, realize that a no deal Brexit would cause incredible disruption to the UK economy.

It doesn't have to cause too much disruption and would be good for our country long term, if the people in change are competent enough.


They have enough common sense to know that Brexit does not include the option of Brentrance, as an escape from one's own national folly. In the case of Brexit, if Britain breaks it, they will have to own it.

That is fine but at least put a Brexiteer in charge who actually believes in Britain.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 08:52 AM
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a reply to: 83Liberty

I appreciate your response, while continuing to disagree with it.

Theresa May believes in Britain and "intends to deliver" Brexit but only on terms which guard against what is very widely perceived, in very well advised circles, as a dangerous disruption to the British economy that would occur without an agreement between the UK and the EU on the divorce. The film, War of the Roses, comes to mind. Most Brexiteers don't want to risk a situation like that, evolving between the EU and the UK.

Be that as it may, the political and economic future of the UK is going to be determined by realpolitik, and by "belief" only insofar as it is able to impose itself upon realpolitik.

Note: I was just talking about this with a friend of mine, when I remembered an old comedy sketch by a Canadian comedy duo by the name of Wayne and Shuster (they appeared frequently on the old Ed Sullivan Show on TV in the US). The sketch I'm referring to was about the assassination of Julius Caesar on the "Ides of March", told from the point of view of Caesar's wife. The punch line was her repeating, "I told him, Julie don't go, Julie don't go!"

I think a lot of people today see the UK as "Julie" and they are pleading with them, "don't go".
edit on 16-12-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 12:15 PM
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The article at the following link is quite interesting. It features a small business owner (85 employees) explaining the problems that a "no deal" Brexit will present to him.

www.theguardian.com...

He says several very interesting things, among them that he is already moving part of his operation to the continent, that EU tariffs are going to remove his competitive edge, that he will be making employees redundant in January absent a deal, that Brexit is not a disrupter it is a bankrupter, that Tory MPs are not interested in him and people like him and that there is a massive disconnect between what Napoleon called the "nation of shopkeepers" (my words not his) and the Brexiters.

Brexit is not about the British people, although it was sold on that basis. It is about the British financial oligarchy and their desire for deregulation and a return to a freebooting, devil take the wogs and the local serfs, way of doing things.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 12:35 PM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

"Theresa May believes in Britain and "intends to deliver" Brexit "

you assume much.



posted on Dec, 16 2018 @ 12:43 PM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

"Brexit is not about the British people"

no, its about the state of their nation.
and the illusion of democracy becoming apparent.
like the rest of europe.
the mask is off.



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