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originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: face23785
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides
Guns are barely protective at best and are in fact the primary engine of suicide.
If this were true, the US would be #1 in the world in suicides. We're not.
"Barely protective" as in what? That there aren't thousands of DGUs every year? Even CDC admitted to such.
originally posted by: network dude
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: worldstarcountry
a reply to: chr0naut
And yet according to the WHO, the majority of suicides globally are by self inflicted poison, with Europe being the highest suicide prone region.
Now, how would you like to spin that into somehow being the fault of firearms accessibility?
To be honest, I would rather someone go out instantly with a bullet than agonizingly painful and dragged out by poison.
What about not committing suicide?
well, we could make a law against it .....you know, making it illegal.
originally posted by: projectvxn
a reply to: chr0naut
Guns are barely protective at best
Based on all of your knowledge and experience in firearms...
How many fire fights have you been in to make this determination?
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut
What about not committing suicide?
Great idea! Now, what can we do to stop people from committing suicide?
How about making it illegal? There's a good idea... oh, wait, how are we going to prosecute someone who committed suicide? They're dead by definition.
How about just making their life seem a little better? You know, things like a better economy so they can not worry every month about how to make ends meet? Maybe a little less government looking over their shoulder to try and restrict ever move they make? And we could maybe figure out a way to make mental health care more affordable...
oh, wait, no, that's what the big orange mean guy is doing.
OK, I give up. How do we get people to not commit suicide?
TheRedneck
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: face23785
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides
Guns are barely protective at best and are in fact the primary engine of suicide.
If this were true, the US would be #1 in the world in suicides. We're not.
The US is #2 in the world for gun suicides.
"Barely protective" as in what? That there aren't thousands of DGUs every year? Even CDC admitted to such.
Later studies disagree with the CDC's study from 20 years ago.
From Wikipedia:
"A 2004 study surveyed the records of a Phoenix, Arizona newspaper, as well as police and court records, and found a total of 3 instances of defensive gun use over a 3.5 month period. In contrast, Kleck and Gertz's study would predict that the police should have noticed more than 98 DGU killings or woundings and 236 DGU firings at adversaries during this time.[36]
A 1995 study led by Arthur Kellermann, which examined 198 home invasion crimes in Atlanta, Georgia, found that in only 3 of these cases did victims use guns for self-protection. Of these three, none were injured, but one lost property. The authors concluded that "Although firearms are often kept in the home for protection, they are rarely used for this purpose."[37]
A followup study in 1998 by Arthur Kellermann analyzed 626 shootings in three cities. The study found that "For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."[38]
The Gun Violence Archive, which uses a methodology of counting incidents reported and verified by law enforcement or media, reports substantially lower numbers of defensive gun use in the US than studies based on polls. 1,980 and 2,043 incidents were reported and verified in 2016 and 2017, respectively.[39]
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: face23785
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides
Guns are barely protective at best and are in fact the primary engine of suicide.
If this were true, the US would be #1 in the world in suicides. We're not.
The US is #2 in the world for gun suicides.
That actually doesn't support your assertion at all. You claimed that guns were the primary driver of suicides. If that were true, the U.S., which has more guns or guns per capita than any other country, would lead the world in suicides overall, not just gun suicides. The fact that we don't lead either disproves your point. It's elementary statistics.
"Barely protective" as in what? That there aren't thousands of DGUs every year? Even CDC admitted to such.
Later studies disagree with the CDC's study from 20 years ago.
From Wikipedia:
"A 2004 study surveyed the records of a Phoenix, Arizona newspaper, as well as police and court records, and found a total of 3 instances of defensive gun use over a 3.5 month period. In contrast, Kleck and Gertz's study would predict that the police should have noticed more than 98 DGU killings or woundings and 236 DGU firings at adversaries during this time.[36]
A 1995 study led by Arthur Kellermann, which examined 198 home invasion crimes in Atlanta, Georgia, found that in only 3 of these cases did victims use guns for self-protection. Of these three, none were injured, but one lost property. The authors concluded that "Although firearms are often kept in the home for protection, they are rarely used for this purpose."[37]
A followup study in 1998 by Arthur Kellermann analyzed 626 shootings in three cities. The study found that "For every time a gun in the home was used in a self-defense or legally justifiable shooting, there were four unintentional shootings, seven criminal assaults or homicides, and 11 attempted or completed suicides."[38]
The Gun Violence Archive, which uses a methodology of counting incidents reported and verified by law enforcement or media, reports substantially lower numbers of defensive gun use in the US than studies based on polls. 1,980 and 2,043 incidents were reported and verified in 2016 and 2017, respectively.[39]
There's a lot of problems here. Firstly, there's been more than one CDC study. I love Wikipedia for casual reading, but it's not a reliable source for this kind of thing. The more recent CDC study I'm talking about is linked in a thread in my sig, if you're curious about doing some reading and getting informed. It was commissioned by President Obama after the Newtown shooting, despite the gun control lie that the CDC isn't allowed to study gun violence (they actually are, and they did).
You're also confusing DGUs with defensive shootings. Not every DGU results in a shot fired. Additionally, the Gun Violence Archive is an incomplete and unreliable source for counting DGUs or even just defensive shootings. For one, relying on media reports is terrible methodology. Defensive shootings don't make the news at near the rate that criminal shootings do, for two reasons: (1) bad news sells better and (2) many in the media are pro-gun-control and their bias creeps into the story selection.
Finally, Kellerman's "study" has gaping holes in its methodology and has been picked apart by John Lott, among others. I doubt you're open to reading anything by him because of gun control propaganda about him being on the NRA payroll and other nonsense, despite there being zero evidence to support that oft-repeated lie, so I won't bother with a link. I'll just give you an example. Analyzing defensive shootings in cities gives you skewed results because a lot of cities have very restrictive gun laws. Part of the problem was mentioned earlier in the thread, cities put a ton of red tape in place so it costs a fortune to get a permit, so poor people in the highest crime neighborhoods can't afford to even have a gun. Of course you won't get many defensive shootings. Analyzing 3 cities is hardly a comprehensive study.
Anyway, the point of the OP still stands. We're told by gun control advocates that more people carrying guns would make everyone less safe. This is demonstrably false according to this new, comprehensive study.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: face23785
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides
Guns are barely protective at best and are in fact the primary engine of suicide.
If this were true, the US would be #1 in the world in suicides. We're not.
The US is #2 in the world for gun suicides.
That actually doesn't support your assertion at all. You claimed that guns were the primary driver of suicides. If that were true, the U.S., which has more guns or guns per capita than any other country, would lead the world in suicides overall, not just gun suicides. The fact that we don't lead either disproves your point. It's elementary statistics.
You are ignoring all the other reasons for suicide like socio-economic and drug abuse ones.
You can't reduce real world data sets to single cause and effect. Plotted on a table, most real world statistics distribute in a bell curve due to a variety of ancillary inputs. If there were only a single cause and a single effect, that's elementary arithmetic, not statistics.
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: face23785
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides
Guns are barely protective at best and are in fact the primary engine of suicide.
If this were true, the US would be #1 in the world in suicides. We're not.
The US is #2 in the world for gun suicides.
That actually doesn't support your assertion at all. You claimed that guns were the primary driver of suicides. If that were true, the U.S., which has more guns or guns per capita than any other country, would lead the world in suicides overall, not just gun suicides. The fact that we don't lead either disproves your point. It's elementary statistics.
You are ignoring all the other reasons for suicide like socio-economic and drug abuse ones.
You can't reduce real world data sets to single cause and effect. Plotted on a table, most real world statistics distribute in a bell curve due to a variety of ancillary inputs. If there were only a single cause and a single effect, that's elementary arithmetic, not statistics.
I didn't ignore or reduce anything. I'm well aware that it's a complex issue with many factors. However, you made the claim that guns are the primary driver. That's straight up false. If that were the case, the country with the most guns per capita would have the highest suicide rate. This doesn't bear out. Guns aren't the primary factor. That's a statistical fact.
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
originally posted by: face23785
originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: face23785
The majority of gun deaths in the US are suicides
Guns are barely protective at best and are in fact the primary engine of suicide.
If this were true, the US would be #1 in the world in suicides. We're not.
The US is #2 in the world for gun suicides.
That actually doesn't support your assertion at all. You claimed that guns were the primary driver of suicides. If that were true, the U.S., which has more guns or guns per capita than any other country, would lead the world in suicides overall, not just gun suicides. The fact that we don't lead either disproves your point. It's elementary statistics.
You are ignoring all the other reasons for suicide like socio-economic and drug abuse ones.
You can't reduce real world data sets to single cause and effect. Plotted on a table, most real world statistics distribute in a bell curve due to a variety of ancillary inputs. If there were only a single cause and a single effect, that's elementary arithmetic, not statistics.
I didn't ignore or reduce anything. I'm well aware that it's a complex issue with many factors. However, you made the claim that guns are the primary driver. That's straight up false. If that were the case, the country with the most guns per capita would have the highest suicide rate. This doesn't bear out. Guns aren't the primary factor. That's a statistical fact.
I should have said suicides in the US.
Excellent ideas.
Really?
we could also limit access to firearms.
While numerous factors contribute to the choice of a suicide method, societal patterns of suicide can be understood from basic concepts such as the social acceptability of the method (i.e. culture and tradition) and its availability (i.e. opportunity).6,7 International or intercultural comparisons of suicide methods help increase understanding of the interplay between these two factors and provide a basis for preventive strategies.8–10
Hanging was the predominant method of suicide in most countries included in the analysis (Table 1). The highest proportions were around 90% in men and 80% in women, as observed in eastern Europe (i.e. Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania, Poland and Romania). There were a number of deviations from the predominant pattern. As might be expected, firearm suicide was the most common method in the United States, but was also prevalent in Argentina, Switzerland and Uruguay, although only men used this method in Switzerland. Jumping from a height (designated as falls in the figures) plays an important role in small, predominantly urban societies such as Hong Kong SAR, Luxembourg and Malta. In contrast, in rural Latin American countries (e.g. El Salvador, Nicaragua and Peru), Asian countries (e.g. the Republic of Korea and Thailand) and also in Portugal, poisoning with pesticides was a major problem, notably among women. Poisoning with drugs was common in women from Canada, the Nordic countries and the United Kingdom. It also played an important role in male suicide in these countries.
The well-known differences between men’s and women’s preferred suicide methods can also be seen in Table 1. Violent and highly lethal methods such as firearm suicide and hanging are more frequent among men, whereas women often choose poisoning or drowning, which are less violent and less lethal.
Correspondence analysis for all countries yielded the correspondence maps shown in Fig. 1 for men, and Fig. 2 for women. In the men’s data, the first two dimensions accounted for 84.5% of the inertia; in the women’s data, it accounted for 77.1%. In the figures, pesticides, hanging (and other methods) and firearms form a triangle. In addition, the countries with the highest proportions of pesticide poisoning and firearm suicide listed above also define the triangle apices. Hanging is in an intermediate position since it is more frequent than firearm suicide in almost all countries with a high proportion of pesticide suicide. Conversely, hanging is more frequent than pesticide suicide in almost all countries with a high proportion of firearm suicide. Thus, there are two slopes: one from hanging to pesticide suicide and the other from hanging to firearm suicide. This is the typical arch effect observed in CA. To be safe, we should not interpret these CAs using the second axis. The first axis should be kept in mind, on which the poles are pesticide suicide and firearm suicide (and, to a lesser extent, other poisoning), with hanging and other methods lying in between.
originally posted by: TheRedneck
a reply to: chr0naut
Excellent ideas.
I'm glad we agree.
Really?
Really.
Since you glanced right by two of the three things I mentioned (better economy and less restrictive regulations), I will presume you agree that Trump has accomplished those two.
Now, I will freely admit nothing has been done yet to really help mental health; however, I assume you understand that Trump's budget is useless unless passed by Congress, he is not able to sign legislation that is not passed by Congress, and he certainly cannot reverse legislation passed by Congress unless Congress first sends him a bill reversing it. It sounds like your beef is with Congress.
we could also limit access to firearms.
So when is the Constitutional Convention?
TheRedneck
Better economy is a loaded term. Better for whom?
... and anarchy is even less restrictive.
I don't think everyone would describe Trump's changes as less restrictive. Anti-abortion laws (though I actually agree it is a good thing, none the less, they are restrictive). Bans on immigration and travel - restrictive.
Most legislation restricts, just does.
Think of New Zealand and what likely comes to mind is beautiful nature - fjords, mountains and magnificent landscapes, vast, empty and endless. But for years already, the country has been struggling with another form of isolation - depression and suicide. A new report by Unicef contains a shocking statistic - New Zealand has by far the highest youth suicide rate in the developed world. A shock but no surprise - it's not the first time the country tops that table. The Unicef report found New Zealand's youth suicide rate - teenagers between 15 and 19 - to be the highest of a long list of 41 OECD and EU countries. The rate of 15.6 suicides per 100,000 people is twice as high as the US rate and almost five times that of Britain.