Torah and Skins

a reply to: LABTECH767

I liked your movie.

Now that I have thought about it, I believe dfnj2015 was referring to the part where I said, " At the end, we are fully redeemed living in heaven with our spiritual bodies restored."

This refers to NT. Probably I should have said, living in Eden rather than heaven since, at that point heaven is on earth anyway. And it is Eden restored, the tree of life is there.

a reply to: gallop

a reply to: Seede In Cliff Notes? I honestly don't even know what this is, I avert my eyes from religious things. But am curious.

What this is meant to be is a discussion of the Hebrew bible and the substance of Adam when first formed from the creation. Most all are taught that Adam was just another guy like you and me. But this subject is meant to show that Adam was a special kind of guy and was not like you and me.

a reply to: Raggedyman

Nice thoughts to kick around and consider but all I can think is what and what’s the point As Dizzy said “the image” is probably related to our free will, intelligence, capabilities or whatever he meant than skin God had angels, why did He want more celestial beings

My point may differ from others in that I am fascinated by eternal life. That is if we have eternal life. When I realize that one day I will die then I become interested in trying to understand what is really on the table. Not saying that I can influence any whit of this afterlife but only that I may understand more of what I do not understand.

What started this in my mind? At one time I had a very close and dear friend of childhood life. We were separated during WWII and in later years we found each other living many miles apart. After a reunion and vows to never let this happen again we both agreed to send letters once a month and then later replaced by tapes at least monthly. We did this for a great many years and our main topic was almost entirely God orientated.

One day my friend sent me a tape telling me that he was about to die and wanted to discuss afterlife. At the end of the tape he asked me if he would be awake when he died. Before I had a chance to answer I received a telephone message telling me that my friend died. I felt betrayed by not being there to tell him the answer was yes you would be alive and well.

From that day till now I do not like to be preached at nor do I like to preach at others. I like to share and talk to others who love to share. Am I right? Perhaps sometimes and most certainly not always. So in that I am not certain of anything in this life but do have hope that I see with clarity.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Intriguing thought, did the physical earth already exist and was there already a SOULESS race of man?, if so they really were NOT us or our ancestors' but simply smart animal's devoid of soul's until we were exiled to this state of being.

My understanding is that the physicality did exist in a pure state when Adam was formed from what was created. Moses said that God said what He created was good. The earth was pure and uncontaminated as Adam was formed from its substance. But Adam was a light bearing creation and the word terrestrial was not understood then as it is today. Today the cursed earth [universe] must decay and die. Adam was formed from the purity of creation and then cursed. As you understand more of this you can see that when God cursed the earth He also had to curse Adam because Adam was of the earth and must return to the earth.

As Adam shed his purity of garments of light and received fleshly corrupt skin was when he became terrestrial. Both he and the earth became terrestrial along with the entire universe which is also earth. Now were there other creatures upon the earth at this time? My understanding is that yes there were light bearing creatures upon the earth at this time but these creatures were not Adamic seeds. They were celestial seeds of the heavenly host who were cast down to this earth before the earth was cursed, and lost their ability of being light bearing creatures. The difference being that they were not of this earth but were of another substance.

These Sumerian kings that came down from heaven [Sumerian Kings List] were not of the same substance as the earth and had no curse of death such as Adam had. Their death will come as being known as the second death in the final judgment of all creation. These kings and their angelic followers were imprisoned in the earth [Sheol] as Adam was expelled from the garden.

My understanding is that soulless means bodiless but I think you mean spirtless. No one can actually know what substances are in spirit but from what I understand spirit is truly the greatest of mysteries. In the Adamic seed we understand the spirit as the detached source of consciousness that controls the body. The spirit is actually the mind. The mind is not physical but controls the brain which in turn controls the body. The mind is what is judged by the Christ Jesus at death of the soul. Jewish and Christian philosophy are not in agreement on this.

Does a spirit breath? Does it have kidneys to cleanse the body or a digestive tract to be nourished, does it have blood or a heart to pump the blood? What is a spiritual body? I really don't know but 1st Corinthians 15:44 tells us that in death we are raised as a spiritual body. Our substance will be different and I believe we then shall return to our true existence as a light bearing entity. But in all of that we still will have the same mind. At least that is what I understand.

a reply to: Seede

I would have edited that bit out but had windows 10 updating at the time and that took well over 4 hours, I had actually thought that was a bit of a crazy thought.

But Yeshua did say "There is NOTHING New under the sun" which makes me think that while he may have been simply referring to human motivation, thought and action he may also have been very literal and if so that would then mean we were NOT the first human race either and indeed the planet itself may have been re-used several time's - or there may have been literally several earth's under the sun with the real earth of course being the one in the spiritual realm.

And yes Spiritless body's would be completely inert or dead since the spirit is the breath of life or it itself is alive because of the breath of life which would place the breath of life closer to the Pure consciousness and not the mind that it rides within.

So I was then unable to retract that thought which is both wrong and open's up an almost Mandelbrot set of wrong path's of thought with an ever spiraling journey into the no answers here direction.

There were however many school's of Jewish belief before the expulsion and still remain many school's today, there were those that believed literally in the physical resurrection of the flesh and those that believed rather in a spiritual resurrection.

When Yeshua raised Lazarus he said that he had walked the lands' beneath the earth so that is kind of like a purgatory, when Yeshua died he is said to have then liberated many soul's from that place and from hell, graves opened up in Jerusalem - weather literally or spiritually or both is a question but many righteous whom had died were then seen in the city, when he himself rose from death on the third day he then spent what you would recognized as a purification period of 40 day's on the earth after which his body rose with clouds (spirit) and became spirit again since after all he was spirit manifest as flesh but so completely that he literally was flesh and then he was literally spirit again.

Now Yeshua did not divide the flesh and the spirit so I may once again be in error and he said the Body is MORE than clothing but he also said God is a Spirit, he is the God of the Living NOT of the Dead, He is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob.

Of course he was after his resurrection really spirit since even though he could appear solid he could also make himself so that even his closest followers did not recognize him until he let them often seeming to be a stranger, he could simply appear and disappear as well as spirit's can and of course there was the pre-crucifixion transfiguration on the mountain - really speaking the man really suffered and died but the spirit that the man was made from and that had raised itself back up was never dead in the sense of the word we would be and could not die since life itself is a creation and this being is a part of the creator that transcends life so while the mortal life had gone form his form he was still there but that man whom just wanted to live and prayed in the garden that long night for the cup to be taken away while his apostles though they tried could not keep themselves awake to stay with him for even one hour sweating blood and knowing what he would have to face at the hand's of men and the burden that he would have to carry for those whom are saved by him did die on that cross.

I do not believe in reincarnation but there are many that do and I keep an open mind to it as well and many Jewish people do as well, there are similarity's between the wheel's that Ezekiel saw on the throne and the wheel of Dharma or reincarnation that the Hindu's believe in, also there is a distinct similarity between angels ascending and descending the ladder of Jacob and reincarnation there as well since they are moving between the two world's.

So could some exiled be clothed many times' in this flesh of dust while Yeshua in that interpretation would be the one way to break free of that cycle of imprisonment and both offering them hope the only real escape back to that higher existence.

Of course then you fall into the trap that the early Gnostic's did, they did not believe that salvation could be earned by good work's or given by grace or paid for by the blood of Jesus but rather that it was hidden in knowledge and in fact they so chased there own tail's and led many others into darkness as a result.

originally posted by: Raggedyman
a reply to: LABTECH767

That's a heresy, salvation does not come from the Jews, salvation is found only in Jesus

Jesus ended the Jewish religion and the Jewish covenant with His own new covenant to all humanity not just Israel

Salvation does not come from the Jews

Actually brother.
www.kingjamesbibleonline.org...
Yeshua NEVER ended the Jewish religion.
biblehub.com...
HE expanded it.
Now let me ask you this, are those that are ANTI JEWISH really grafted on or are they like a diseased branch that the owner of the tree would NEVER graft on?.
Yeshua came as a Jewish Man, his Mother Miriam was Jewish raised in the temple.
There has always been an argument about the Jew's being cut off from there root's by God BUT that only goes as far and for as long as they reject Yeshua.
And Here is what is said of God's anger He will punish those that hate him to the third and fourth generation but those that love him he will bless for a thousand generation's.
How many generations have passed since those misguided people riled up by the Sanhedrin spat at our King, how many generation's have passed?.

The argument about circumcision was dealt with in the early church, needless to say if you are part of the church your circumcision is spiritual and you have inherited from your king so in a sense even if not physically you are spiritually circumcised.

(there are two types of Heresy, those that upset the corrupt clergy whom used the church for there own wealth and political power being a third, one is true heresy were a believer in another and wrong interpretation take's others' down the wrong path and the other is heresy through ignorance which is forgiven by the Lord since they do not know and he forgives them what they do not know - which pretty much sum's up about 99.9999 percent of us today).

a reply to: LABTECH767

Well it's obvious we disagree, you don't understand the Mosaic covenant was for Israel and the new covenant under Christ is for the Gentiles and Jews

I don't know how your anti Jewish comment relates to anything, Jesus taught His followers to love everyone

The law has been fulfilled under Christ, we have the Spirit to guide us

a reply to: Raggedyman

Of course we disagree, the Mosaic covenant as you call it was for HUMANITY, God chose them as a nation of priests.
It is you whom do not understand (OR RATHER WE are getting caught up in babble here), Yeshua said,

Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them, but to fulfill them

How then is the old law passed away, WE are saved by his grace but only by offering a contrite and repentant heart before him.

WE live by Grace but the law remain's and shall until the end of time because it is perfect, we are the one's that are NOT perfect.

Let him that is without SIN cast the first stone.

Those that do not break the law do not need salvation - whom but a child has never broken the law yet it is not our right to point that out since we are not supposed to indicate the flaws of our brothers but rather to seek our own flaw's and let's be fair large of small we all have them.

Yet God loves us anyway, the Law itself is NOT God it is simply the law a set of rules lain down by our Father and best compressed into the original ten commandment's - all the rest of those rules are merely grown out of them.

Those under Yeshua's blood are no longer under the Law because he has paid the price for our transgression's and given us a way to salvation which we could NEVER earn ourselves but to say the law is passed away is to say that Yeshua has no reason to carry those wound's upon his body and to blame the law for those wound's is also wrong since it is not the Law that inflicted those wound's upon the one whom loves us most and whom we should love equally and probably will when we know it all but our Sin's for which he paid the price for on our behalf to save us.

Yes and Jesus fulfilled the law so those who enter into His covenant dont have to live under the law

If we are saved by Judaism what value jesus then
If the law worked why Jesus then

Did you not read "the sermon on the mount"

You are putting new wine in old wine skins, it is silly

Salvation comes from Christ alone not Jews
How you came up with that is beyond me

a reply to: Raggedyman

Remember the valley of Dry bone's, the law serves a purpose and it still does but we do NOT have to live under it rather we need to try to live as Jesus wanted us to as best we could and that is to abide by his main commandment which actually encapsulates the other ten and the law itself or at least what it mean's will follow naturally becoming our very nature in the process.

This is also NOT about wine skin's, I am not putting new wine into old skin's and Salvation does come from Christ alone the first followers of the way - we were not called christian's back then and took offense at the sign of the cross so instead used the sign of the fish and the anchor or as in that old Jerusalem church the Manora (Seven branched) with the triangular base and the fish with the triangular tail intertwined to form the star of David which is actually one of the oldest symbolic representations of Christianity.

Now if you are going to try to ACCUSE me of using old wine skin's let me remind you of the man with the vineyard and his enemy with the tares.

I am not judging you brother so don't judge me I am not trying to offend you or to blaspheme my Lord and I am not putting new wine into old skin's.

The Church 'so long as it remain's within the Grace of Christ' is spiritually Israel, the branch grafted on and so in that we have salvation but it only comes to us by Christ and Through Christ, he is the way and the life and the resurrection.

That is not to say that Israel is cut off for ever, they were cut off until the third and fourth generation but those that continue to deny Christ remain cut off until they accept him and remember it is Jesus whom came through the Jews to us even though he exist's before them and that way Salvation come's to us through the Jews in the form of Yeshua.

Have you considered how silly it is to debate in a circular debate with me when in fact we are arguing the same point and believe the same thing about the same lord just take a slightly different angle, how wrong it is for either one of us to claim the moral or literal high ground when in fact only Yeshua has that.

So I am not going to let you say that I am in error simply because you interpret my word's your way or I that you are in error because in fact I agree with you on that point but disagree with your interpretation of my word's.

Here is the best take on it - there is no other salvation except by Christ, we can not be saved by work's (alone though they may help if we please the lord by our action's), we can not be saved by tradition or by whom we are born too but only by Christ and only by his sacrifice).
www.christiancourier.com...

At there best the Jews are a prototype of what we are supposed to be and at the worst they are an example of what we are supposed to never be but that is just my opinion and remember through Jesus salvation and we are the branch grafted on by his blood (I believe that I am actually descended from Israel but that family heritage is lost to us, also I have not had the snip - ouch - and I don't believe that grant's any form of special entitlement at all - my salvation can only come through Christ and I am happy to say that he is My Lord, My only King - I do not acknowledge any false earthy crown - and my teacher though I am sad to say that perhaps I am far from his most apt student and at times have been like the jew's whom walked by and left the injured man that had been robbed and left for dead rather than the Samaritan that saved him.

a reply to: LABTECH767

You are putting new wine into old skins, Judaising

Judaism did not save, hence why Jesus came

The Jewish faith does not offer salvation
You said "salvation comes from the Jews"
Salvation can only be found in jesus, not in the Jews or Judaism.

Dont show me verse that is unrelated to what you said

Jesus completed everything, Judaism completed nothing, in actual fact Judaism really failed.
It was for people who didnt have the Spirit, they needed the law

a reply to: LABTECH767

Did you read what you linked

Jesus talking to a Samaritan
Do you know what a Samaritan was, understand the nuances?

" In a conversation with a Samaritan woman, Jesus declared: “[S]alvation is from the Jews” (John 4:22). The focus, of course, was upon his personal identity as the Messiah (vv. 25-26). "
www.christiancourier.com...

Salvation is from the Jews and His name is called Jesus, Yeshua, whatever?

In fact, the Jews need Jesus just as much as the gentiles.

So maybe we are arguing pedantics

Can we leave it at this?
"Salvation is from the Jews and His name is called Jesus, Yeshua ..."

a reply to: Raggedyman

Yes I know what a Samaritan was, they too are descendant's of Jacob by the way.

We can leave it at that since it will NEVER Be left at that, Salvation and JUDGMENT will come from him, I am not judging you but how many time's have you judged me.

Off topic but have you ever had any Experiences?.

originally posted by: LABTECH767
a reply to: Raggedyman

Salvation and JUDGMENT will come from him, I am not judging you but how many time's have you judged me.

Judge you, dont even know you

Salvation and JUDGMENT will come from him is good enough for me

a reply to: Raggedyman

And yet you accused me of Heresy is that not judgement.

You know when Jesus picked up that stone and looked at the crowd he was LOOKING at THEM not at the woman they had accused, you know that he knew there crime's without judging them and simply made a very important point and had one whom was guilty thrown a stone it is at him that Jesus would have thrown his.

There is one thing worse than the guilty in Jesus sight and that is the hypocrite whom know's his guilt and yet still throws his stone.

In England we have a very basic saying based upon this, He whom lives in a glass house shouldn't throw stone's.

If you believe as I do in our lord then you are linked to me as my brother in him regardless.

First time I took the bread and wine it was to me NOT bread and wine but I truly believed I was taking my lord into me and wanted to commune with him over what to me was a world ending matter so as I took him I gave myself to him.
The wafer touched my tongue and my body began to oscillate like it was vibrating or shaking almost like static electricity running through me, the wine touched my lip's and something outside did not want it to pass into me and I know it was not my Lord that wanted this but must have been his enemy because as it touched my lip's and at the exact instant it touched my tongue I felt a cold sensation like a blade made of ice pass through the back of my neck and through it, I was much to my utter shock and horror in three part's at the same time, one felt very heavy and was falling or being dragged down, one was rising and felt extremely light and as they separated from me the sensation of tri-locality passed and I found myself in a state of shock right were I had been all along but two parts of me were taken by whatever that enemy was.

Before that I had a number of strange experiences, one I saw the ship that Ron Wyatte and I believe to be Noah's ark, it was white by the way with a long house atop it peaked roof running the length of the boar, two square window's and a door like a child might draw but very real and filled with an utter and terrifying darkness - well it does reference the Lord covering you under his wing's or shadow (Dependent upon translation) in the book of revelation.

After the sacrament I experienced another vision, I was somewhere VERY dark, not pitch black but devoid of light nonetheless and filled with a dark mist, looking up from the ground I saw a ladder - I am not claiming it is My ancestor Jacob's ladder but there it was and it reached up beyond my ability to see becoming a tiny line in the sky, were it rose the sky lightened and there were lighter - not bright but brighter - cloud's around it, I walked up to it my body there exactly like my body here but in it's prime and somehow distant feeling not numb just separate like I was not fully connected to it, the ladder had stay's about a little over two feet apart and the rung's were about the same distance apart from one another, it was made of ancient wood that felt solid like iron or stone and had very fine hairline crack's along the grain, there were knot's but they were flush to the stay's and the rung's, the rung's seemed not joined but grown from the stay's and each rung was different except in shape and size by which they were identical, I climbed desperate to seek the lord's help for someone else - not for myself this is important I had no self motive for being there - and reached only the third rung when I was pulled or lifted UP staggering as I tried to climb but instead finding myself on a flat surface.
I dared not lift my head and felt a great and tremendous weight as of shame or guilt and it was unbearable to feel that weight and all I could ask without Daring to look up was "Lord Please Look After Her" then I stepped backward intent upon and succeeding upon climbing back down the ladder which I had begun to climb, I was only able to climb one rung before snapping back to this older and less fit body here on this earth.

Once I had an ecstasy but this was many years before I took the sacrament.
I was standing in the back garden and loving God in my heart I felt a need to look up and there for the briefest instant I saw three incredibly huge golden cruciform's in the sky, they were huge and felt incredibly distant as if between or even beyond the stars, they were squarish solid shapes and seemed to be made of golden light and though I saw them for the briefest instant they burned themselves into my mind as I saw them.

I have had a few other experiences.

The Lord is not just an academic word game HE is very real, more real than here and this and you or me.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Salvation comes through Christ alone
Outside of that, well good luck

Tread carefully, be warned
I don’t need feelings, I have faith beyond emotions

Salvation is in Jesus not Judaism

a reply to: Raggedyman

Listen well to me, I remember Seven threescore and seven and have seen reality itself change, the book of revelation you think so perfect HAS changed, I am angry with the devil far more than I shall ever be with my God but I shall not be stopped in receiving an answer from him as to why it has changed and what the justification for it was.

I even recall Eugene Terrablanche the white supremacist scum bag and leader of the boar separatists whom first opposed the abolition of apartheid in south Africa and later wanted a homeland for the south African whites claiming that the three armed swastika they used on there flag was actually 777, do you even remember why people thought that was a good number?, 777 was a mistranslation of Seven Threescore and Seven which is obviously 767 and prior to the alteration it appeared in this context - I saw one like unto the son of man come down from heaven and unto him it was given that he did overcome the beast and the kingdom of the beast, it was further explained that Seven Threescore and Seven was THE number of MAN while Six threescore and Six was the number of A (singular being) man.

I know this, I have NOT added anything to the book of revelation I have merely protected what I read and it has been removed by someone else, had I added I would expect the full measure of the proscribed punishment written there in and had I taken out of it I would expect my name to be removed from the BOOK'S of life.

But someone, something has and I do fully intend when the lord let's me out of this cursed corporeal state to ensure that who or whatever that is receives the full measure of that punishment - neither they nor the devil will get away with it believe me - you may ask my Lord and yours in your heart if I am lying because I am most certainly not though I may turn out to be far too small and inconsequential as a being to be able to bring about what I have said here, but hey there is eternity to accomplish it and even if I have to dig that mountain with a spoon in eternity there is time enough to move an infinite number of mountains.

I was once so distressed I even tried to get out of my body and the entire room glowed blue white with light coming from me, I am no prophet, no saint just a man, I had the intention of doing this at the time.

I was willing and intended to DRAG the devil into the lake of fire that is how distressed I was but a hand pushed me on my chest and sealed me back into my body, I knew full well that to do what I was intending I too would have gone into that lake but I wanted to restore my Jesus the Jesus I knew and read and not this false stranger that is now presented in the altered bible whose nature is so much darker than the Jesus I grew up loving.

So believe me you have no idea were you stand in this war or indeed what side you are on, I shall pray for you that is all I can do but - HOW DARE YOU.


Christ is MY LORD who is your's.

a reply to: LABTECH767

You lost all meaning and credibility when you started by saying I think the book of revelation is perfect
It al just went down hill from there

Again salvation is in Jesus not all this dragging the devil to hell and three score and seven nonsense
Abraham was not a Jew and had faith in God
It's about relationship not religion, believing God will sort things out not us

Pray for yourself

a reply to: Raggedyman

My credibility, what make you think I am vain like you, My credibility is with my God not with you.
This site is full of devil worshipers, look how many even use the name of the Vile Accuser Satan in there avatar and claim it is for religious freedom when in fact that is the very antithesis of freedom.
I have no more time for you, I got angry and told you the truth that I know but I can NEVER put that into you, needless to say it is God's grace alone that has preserved me against devil's, I have seen them face to face awake in this world standing there mocking black shadow's with tiny red eye's like looking into a void but deeper and I held a prayer book in my hand when I did see them, I never ran I stood my ground and they were pushed back by other's that looked like smoke or mist.

I have seen objects' move, heard voices that would drive any man insane and faced horrible visions and images that you would never believe.

But you have your belief and I am not wanting you to lose your faith - assuming you have any and this is not some ploy you are making.

God know's our measure, he tests us to our breaking point and beyond and forges us anew into something better, he can raise the dead and restore the destroyed so if we die in his service EVEN to our very soul we shall be remade by him whom made all thing's and makes them again new.

The devil's however the tares and they whom hate him shall not be there in that new world he has prepared.

You talk about credibility like I need your belief, like I need you, God alone is the only person you should seek not credibility oh vanity blinded soul, remember how Jesus was wroth with the rabbis that clothed themselves in fine cloth's and loved to be lauded while he loved those that did good in secret and prayed to God in secret because before god even the most secret thing's are known and nothing shall be concealed come that day, that which is hidden shall be revealed and that which is whispered shall be shouted form the roof top's so that all the world shall hear it.

Turn back to Jesus and stop abusing his name for your own agenda NOW, I am not your savior just a fellow soul in this storm hoping the lord shall lead me to calm waters and to safe harbor.

a reply to: LABTECH767

Yes I noticed you got angry, hence why I am not interested in a discussion

www.biblestudytools.com...

I am sorry you believe salvation comes from the Jews and not just Jesus.
That will be all