Analysis; Tucker debates socialist that thinks perosnal responsibility is worthless

a reply to: Wayfarer

BOOM!!!!

You nailed it. Damn. Finally not a partisan bull# post. Dude, mind blown..

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Grambler

I'm not a smoker, but watching this socialist and looking at your Bill Hicks avatar makes me feel like I need a cigarette after watching that.

Anyone see Ocasio talking about healthcare for all recently? The journalist explained how healthcare for all would cost something like $40 trillion over the next decade, and how Ocasio said taxing the rich and increasing corporate taxes would pay for that. He explained that would only account for $2 trillion, and where does the other $38 trillion come from? Ocasio replies with a rant about how "healthcare for all will actually save Americans a lot of money", without actually saying where the $38 trillion would come from.

These people are talking out of their ***, plain and simple. What's worse is people support them

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference. Even cutting their (seemingly zero value) positions a small amount could get us there. When you're not enriching the 35 wealthiest people in the world every time you get a $15,000 ambulance ride or a $100,000 quadruple bypass operation, its suddenly a lot easier to afford basic medical care.

Yes but it is the intervention of insurance and state actions that makes things like this possible.

If you didnt have insurance, there is no way you would accept a $10000 ambulance ride.

But because your insurance pays for it, its like, oh well no big deal, and then everyones rates go up and people who would want to pay out of pocket cant.

Medicare and Medicaid also contribute tho this.

Government intervention almost always raises prices.

Look at education.

Before the government got involved in handing out student loans, young people could afford to work their way through college.

Now that the government is involved, schools have exponentially increased their prices to the point of absurdity. Had the government not got involved, young people would not have been able or willing to pay for these insane increases, which would have forced universities to keep their process much lower.

Bernie merely wants to make the tax payer pay these insane universities costs instead of the students. DO you think that suddenly universities would then charge less? Of course not! Now they will charge even more because they know that the tax payer must pay.

The same in health care. Universal health care wont lower the cost of the $10000 ambulance ride, it will raise it, because everyone is now paying for it.

a reply to: Grambler

Exactly, that's what many people don't seem to realize.

I think the only way to accomplish it is to cut them off cold turkey. There will be pain and chaos and screeching, but it will benefit everyone in the long run.

But realistically, I believe it's too late to put that cat back in the bag.

a reply to: watchitburn

we don't have a free market, we don't have capitalism already. the real problems are the fact that most people are working poor and no matter how much effort they put into what they do they get nowhere

then, education cost 4 arms and a leg

the market is fubar and only the people who benefit the most continue to defend it. we have a kensyian command economy that's centralized and controlled by private banks

start talking about the real problems and maybe you will win people over. until then this is just another in a long line of right wing back scratch threads

a reply to: Wayfarer

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference...

When you're not enriching the 35 wealthiest people in the world every time you get a $15,000 ambulance ride or a $100,000 quadruple bypass operation, its suddenly a lot easier to afford basic medical care.

How did you calculate that? I'm doubtful you or anyone here on ATS can prove how much the top benefactors of the US medical industry are making, and I highly doubt you'll be able to find 38 trillion over 10 years from that number...

Do you believe "democratic" socialists are going to accomplish this feat, taking on insurance companies, big pharma and the US healthcare industry?

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Wayfarer

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference

Do you believe "democratic" socialists are going to accomplish this? Honest question

Sure I believe, partially because I have hope, but secondly because single payer (what AOC has been championing) in effect does this.

a reply to: toysforadults

I don’t disagree with most of this

And I do talk about it quite frequently

Heck our own government no longer prints it’s own money, they borrow from the federal reserve

So the real problem stems with corrupt or inept government interference, like bailing out criminal banks when they fail

That is why it is important to argue against more government intervention, ala socialism

In addition, the crux of this thread is why it’s such a bad idea to shirk personal responsibility and rely on government policy

That is one of the big reasons for many of our problems today

a reply to: Wayfarer

People like Ocasio have proven they don't understand how to get things done, or even have logical ideas of how to get there. Change my mind?

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Grambler

I'm not a smoker, but watching this socialist and looking at your Bill Hicks avatar makes me feel like I need a cigarette after watching that.

Anyone see Ocasio talking about healthcare for all recently? The journalist explained how healthcare for all would cost something like $40 trillion over the next decade, and how Ocasio said taxing the rich and increasing corporate taxes would pay for that. He explained that would only account for $2 trillion, and where does the other $38 trillion come from? Ocasio replies with a rant about how "healthcare for all will actually save Americans a lot of money", without actually saying where the $38 trillion would come from.

These people are talking out of their ***, plain and simple. What's worse is people support them

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference. Even cutting their (seemingly zero value) positions a small amount could get us there. When you're not enriching the 35 wealthiest people in the world every time you get a $15,000 ambulance ride or a $100,000 quadruple bypass operation, its suddenly a lot easier to afford basic medical care.

Yes but it is the intervention of insurance and state actions that makes things like this possible.

If you didnt have insurance, there is no way you would accept a $10000 ambulance ride.

But because your insurance pays for it, its like, oh well no big deal, and then everyones rates go up and people who would want to pay out of pocket cant.

Medicare and Medicaid also contribute tho this.

Government intervention almost always raises prices.

Look at education.

Before the government got involved in handing out student loans, young people could afford to work their way through college.

Now that the government is involved, schools have exponentially increased their prices to the point of absurdity. Had the government not got involved, young people would not have been able or willing to pay for these insane increases, which would have forced universities to keep their process much lower.

Bernie merely wants to make the tax payer pay these insane universities costs instead of the students. DO you think that suddenly universities would then charge less? Of course not! Now they will charge even more because they know that the tax payer must pay.

The same in health care. Universal health care wont lower the cost of the $10000 ambulance ride, it will raise it, because everyone is now paying for it.

One of the responsibilities of Government is preventing monopolistic strangleholds like what we have now. Our current medical paradigm is not one that functions on capitalist principles anymore (insomuch as competition no longer drives costs), but rather lobbied laws and regulations that artificially allow middlemen leaches to operate by fiat because the system is rigged to be unusable otherwise.

a reply to: toysforadults

Then enlighten us to the solution oh wise one.

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: toysforadults

I don’t disagree with most of this

And I do talk about it quite frequently

Heck our own government no longer prints it’s own money, they borrow from the federal reserve

So the real problem stems with corrupt or inept government interference, like bailing out criminal banks when they fail

That is why it is important to argue against more government intervention, ala socialism

In addition, the crux of this thread is why it’s such a bad idea to shirk personal responsibility and rely on government policy

That is one of the big reasons for many of our problems today

I actually agree with this post. We know socialism doesn't work. A lot of us. Even younger people. If we move back to talking about the real issues instead of hanging on partisan talking points we can actually move the conversation in a direction that actually helps us solve the real problems.

Pharma lobby, military industrial complex, saudi arabia, mental health crisis in America, education cost, Federal reserve, cost of healthcare, corruption, broken judicial system

real issues, these are the issues and making fun of socialist day in and day out will solve zero problems, it does nothing to move the conversation forward

I'm not attacking you I'm attacking this idea. separation between things

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Grambler

I'm not a smoker, but watching this socialist and looking at your Bill Hicks avatar makes me feel like I need a cigarette after watching that.

Anyone see Ocasio talking about healthcare for all recently? The journalist explained how healthcare for all would cost something like $40 trillion over the next decade, and how Ocasio said taxing the rich and increasing corporate taxes would pay for that. He explained that would only account for $2 trillion, and where does the other $38 trillion come from? Ocasio replies with a rant about how "healthcare for all will actually save Americans a lot of money", without actually saying where the $38 trillion would come from.

These people are talking out of their ***, plain and simple. What's worse is people support them

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference. Even cutting their (seemingly zero value) positions a small amount could get us there. When you're not enriching the 35 wealthiest people in the world every time you get a $15,000 ambulance ride or a $100,000 quadruple bypass operation, its suddenly a lot easier to afford basic medical care.

Yes but it is the intervention of insurance and state actions that makes things like this possible.

If you didnt have insurance, there is no way you would accept a $10000 ambulance ride.

But because your insurance pays for it, its like, oh well no big deal, and then everyones rates go up and people who would want to pay out of pocket cant.

Medicare and Medicaid also contribute tho this.

Government intervention almost always raises prices.

Look at education.

Before the government got involved in handing out student loans, young people could afford to work their way through college.

Now that the government is involved, schools have exponentially increased their prices to the point of absurdity. Had the government not got involved, young people would not have been able or willing to pay for these insane increases, which would have forced universities to keep their process much lower.

Bernie merely wants to make the tax payer pay these insane universities costs instead of the students. DO you think that suddenly universities would then charge less? Of course not! Now they will charge even more because they know that the tax payer must pay.

The same in health care. Universal health care wont lower the cost of the $10000 ambulance ride, it will raise it, because everyone is now paying for it.

One of the responsibilities of Government is preventing monopolistic strangleholds like what we have now. Our current medical paradigm is not one that functions on capitalist principles anymore (insomuch as competition no longer drives costs), but rather lobbied laws and regulations that artificially allow middlemen leaches to operate by fiat because the system is rigged to be unusable otherwise.

I totally agree!

Giving government more control will only increase the lobbyists power

The current system is unworkable, but I feel a more free market approach would be necessary to solve it

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Wayfarer

People like Ocasio have proven they don't understand how to get things done, or even have logical ideas of how to get there. Change my mind?

Nobody can/will change your mind but you. I can offer my own opinion/rebuttal;

People unlike AOC have proven the don't understand how to get things done (check American History starting from the end of the 18th century to the present for an example), and they're own logical ideas have all failed. Why would you be averse to letting someone with a different approach try something new?

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Grambler

I'm not a smoker, but watching this socialist and looking at your Bill Hicks avatar makes me feel like I need a cigarette after watching that.

Anyone see Ocasio talking about healthcare for all recently? The journalist explained how healthcare for all would cost something like $40 trillion over the next decade, and how Ocasio said taxing the rich and increasing corporate taxes would pay for that. He explained that would only account for $2 trillion, and where does the other $38 trillion come from? Ocasio replies with a rant about how "healthcare for all will actually save Americans a lot of money", without actually saying where the $38 trillion would come from.

These people are talking out of their ***, plain and simple. What's worse is people support them

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference. Even cutting their (seemingly zero value) positions a small amount could get us there. When you're not enriching the 35 wealthiest people in the world every time you get a $15,000 ambulance ride or a $100,000 quadruple bypass operation, its suddenly a lot easier to afford basic medical care.

Yes but it is the intervention of insurance and state actions that makes things like this possible.

If you didnt have insurance, there is no way you would accept a $10000 ambulance ride.

But because your insurance pays for it, its like, oh well no big deal, and then everyones rates go up and people who would want to pay out of pocket cant.

Medicare and Medicaid also contribute tho this.

Government intervention almost always raises prices.

Look at education.

Before the government got involved in handing out student loans, young people could afford to work their way through college.

Now that the government is involved, schools have exponentially increased their prices to the point of absurdity. Had the government not got involved, young people would not have been able or willing to pay for these insane increases, which would have forced universities to keep their process much lower.

Bernie merely wants to make the tax payer pay these insane universities costs instead of the students. DO you think that suddenly universities would then charge less? Of course not! Now they will charge even more because they know that the tax payer must pay.

The same in health care. Universal health care wont lower the cost of the $10000 ambulance ride, it will raise it, because everyone is now paying for it.

One of the responsibilities of Government is preventing monopolistic strangleholds like what we have now. Our current medical paradigm is not one that functions on capitalist principles anymore (insomuch as competition no longer drives costs), but rather lobbied laws and regulations that artificially allow middlemen leaches to operate by fiat because the system is rigged to be unusable otherwise.

I've been avoiding creating a topic on this but I'm going to do it today. our entire economy is not capitalist. go to your local community council and find out how to access the grant programs for your community.

there's literally millions of dollars to create business's for the in crowd (yea the city has to sponsor your with council approval meaning you have to be part of the in crowd to access it)

we have a centrally planned economy, nothing in America resembles capitalism and those who continue to say so are totally uneducated and that's part of the problem

originally posted by: toysforadults

originally posted by: Grambler
a reply to: toysforadults

I don’t disagree with most of this

And I do talk about it quite frequently

Heck our own government no longer prints it’s own money, they borrow from the federal reserve

So the real problem stems with corrupt or inept government interference, like bailing out criminal banks when they fail

That is why it is important to argue against more government intervention, ala socialism

In addition, the crux of this thread is why it’s such a bad idea to shirk personal responsibility and rely on government policy

That is one of the big reasons for many of our problems today

I actually agree with this post. We know socialism doesn't work. A lot of us. Even younger people. If we move back to talking about the real issues instead of hanging on partisan talking points we can actually move the conversation in a direction that actually helps us solve the real problems.

Pharma lobby, military industrial complex, saudi arabia, mental health crisis in America, education cost, Federal reserve, cost of healthcare, corruption, broken judicial system

real issues, these are the issues and making fun of socialist day in and day out will solve zero problems, it does nothing to move the conversation forward

I'm not attacking you I'm attacking this idea. separation between things

I agree with everything you said here with one small exception

I don’t personally feel like I personally attack socialist people day in and day out

Even in my video in the op, I discuss how socialist have points worth discussing even if I disagree

Many of my best friends are socialist, and are smart great people

I attack their policies and ideas, not them as people

Again, look up my posts, I don’t bash Cortez much at all

Same with Bernie.

I argue against their ideas

Now having said ghat, I also will call them hypocrites if they are acting like it, to show how unworkable their solutions are

Such as the woman in this video

Ban all fossil fuels, but it’s important for Bernie to fly on his private jet

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: Grambler

originally posted by: Wayfarer

originally posted by: FamCore
a reply to: Grambler

I'm not a smoker, but watching this socialist and looking at your Bill Hicks avatar makes me feel like I need a cigarette after watching that.

Anyone see Ocasio talking about healthcare for all recently? The journalist explained how healthcare for all would cost something like $40 trillion over the next decade, and how Ocasio said taxing the rich and increasing corporate taxes would pay for that. He explained that would only account for $2 trillion, and where does the other $38 trillion come from? Ocasio replies with a rant about how "healthcare for all will actually save Americans a lot of money", without actually saying where the $38 trillion would come from.

These people are talking out of their ***, plain and simple. What's worse is people support them

The middlemen operators like insurance companies and the stranglehold on medication patents cover far greater than the 38 trillion difference. Even cutting their (seemingly zero value) positions a small amount could get us there. When you're not enriching the 35 wealthiest people in the world every time you get a $15,000 ambulance ride or a $100,000 quadruple bypass operation, its suddenly a lot easier to afford basic medical care.

Yes but it is the intervention of insurance and state actions that makes things like this possible.

If you didnt have insurance, there is no way you would accept a $10000 ambulance ride.

But because your insurance pays for it, its like, oh well no big deal, and then everyones rates go up and people who would want to pay out of pocket cant.

Medicare and Medicaid also contribute tho this.

Government intervention almost always raises prices.

Look at education.

Before the government got involved in handing out student loans, young people could afford to work their way through college.

Now that the government is involved, schools have exponentially increased their prices to the point of absurdity. Had the government not got involved, young people would not have been able or willing to pay for these insane increases, which would have forced universities to keep their process much lower.

Bernie merely wants to make the tax payer pay these insane universities costs instead of the students. DO you think that suddenly universities would then charge less? Of course not! Now they will charge even more because they know that the tax payer must pay.

The same in health care. Universal health care wont lower the cost of the $10000 ambulance ride, it will raise it, because everyone is now paying for it.

One of the responsibilities of Government is preventing monopolistic strangleholds like what we have now. Our current medical paradigm is not one that functions on capitalist principles anymore (insomuch as competition no longer drives costs), but rather lobbied laws and regulations that artificially allow middlemen leaches to operate by fiat because the system is rigged to be unusable otherwise.

I totally agree!

Giving government more control will only increase the lobbyists power

The current system is unworkable, but I feel a more free market approach would be necessary to solve it

I think we may be in fact working around the same/similar solution in our minds. Something like a single payer where the Government acts as the de-facto intermediary in a non-profit manner so that the administrative aspects of medical billing/processing for ALL can be covered as a benefit of citizenship, then let the free-market finally be allowed to use off-brand medication from overseas (for example), etc to provide the most affordable options to US citizens. Couple that with a thorough deregulating of limiting patents and the like (and other nefarious means of sequestering medical benefits behind the highest profit engine they can find).

I guess the real question is what do you do with the 50k medical insurance personnel that find themselves suddenly laid off?

a reply to: Grambler

Ok I apologize if I made it feel like I was pointing you out specifically, that's my fault. I mean in general the conversation on this board has moved from really truthfully discussing topics to discussing people and bashing people

I refuse to give up because that's just not in my blood

let's move the conversation back to deeper analysis of issues

a reply to: Grambler

I love the format of your video, and with a great analysis to boot.

The repudiation of the individual is key to the socialist mindset. With this they can justify committing injustices against individuals because the means justify the ends.

originally posted by: toysforadults
a reply to: Grambler

Ok I apologize if I made it feel like I was pointing you out specifically, that's my fault. I mean in general the conversation on this board has moved from really truthfully discussing topics to discussing people and bashing people

I refuse to give up because that's just not in my blood

let's move the conversation back to deeper analysis of issues

No apology neccesaty at all.

i love a little confrontation!

I will defintely look forward on checking out your thread on our economic system.

The problem is people want to oevr generalize, we arent fully capitlists, but that doesnt mena we are scialist either.

Smae as in scandanavia; everyone want to say they are socialist, but they have private ownership of business and somewhat free markets.

We are a mixed economy.

The question then becomes what part of that mix is responsible for the bad things we see, and how to dfix it.

That is a debate worth having, and greater minds than me have had many a disagreement over it.

originally posted by: Propagandalf
a reply to: Grambler

I love the format of your video, and with a great analysis to boot.

The repudiation of the individual is key to the socialist mindset. With this they can justify committing injustices against individuals because the means justify the ends.

Thanks I am going to do a thread on people feelings on that format in the non conspiracy section.

But I agree with your point on socialism.

The thing that makes the idea of the US the greates country in the history of the world is that it was setip to focus on the individual rather thean the collective.

That is an amazing thought.

When we lose sight of that, we lose sight of what made this country great, and justify all osrt of punishments based on collective guilt, among other terrible things.