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originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: kerrichin
Lol I'm not calling anyone a liar just calling out the anecdotal evidence for what it is.
originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Nyiah
More anecdotal bollocks again masqueraded as factual information.
originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Nyiah
More anecdotal bollocks again masqueraded as factual information.
originally posted by: Nyiah
originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Nyiah
More anecdotal bollocks again masqueraded as factual information.
Everything from everyone is an anecdote. Such as anything you also refute with.
You can't carry on with your head in the sand, and think the reputation vegans have arose from nowhere. Maybe British vegans have manners and respect, but American ones are profoundly lacking in them, and it has a direct relation to the blowback they get.
originally posted by: blueman12
a reply to: Krakatoa
No, saying that all morals are subjective is heading towards being a sociopath. Or that the chemical response in plants/algae/fungus/ect.. is no different than the response in humans or animals. Or in other words, lacking any empathy towards things that are able to suffer like you.
My point was that you need objective moralities in society, otherwise everything is okay because all morals are subjective.
If you consider animal or human suffering as the same as plants, then what is going to prevent you from torturing them to see their reactions? We "torture" plants all the time to test reactions. Should we do the same to humans and animals?
UGh! It's like I have to justify not torturing living things because you guys want to make some half-assed pseudo-philophical argumement.
originally posted by: Puppylove
originally posted by: Skorpiogurl
I mean if they really had those kinds of emotions, mowing the grass or even walking on your lawn would be tragic!
That's the natural world. It's a sick twisted volatile place that only the sickest most horrific mind could devise.
What makes nature beautiful is the way life finds a way. It's the beauty that exists despite the cold harsh uncaringness of nature.
Which is why veganism and vegetarianism makes me sad and frustrates me to no end. See I care about animals and suffering myself, but am not likewise delusional about reality. I recognize that eating or not eating meat results in suffering of or the destruction of, or removal of other life, be it directly or indirectly. Life requires suffering and death to sustain itself, that's just how it is.
So, you might be asking, what do we do? The answer is, we accept the cold harsh truths of reality, then, turn around and do what we can to lessen and soften those hard truths in a way that is both honest and effective.
Not eating meat, and going vegan or vegetarian does not actually accomplish anything, it's not accepting the harsh truths of reality, instead denying them, doing something completely ineffective, and creating situations where everyone needs to adapt to your "lifestyle" choice whenever food is involved.
No fewer animals are killed because one is vegan, no fewer animals suffer because one is vegan, whether one is vegan or not farms are still needed and animal populations still need to be controlled. If everyone became vegan tomorrow, the death that would have to occur of animals en mass would be staggering. Many animals that currently benefit by being important to human survival would soon become extinct, no longer having a place in the world.
So again, what to do? Answer is simple and hard at the same time. We respect the truth, and in doing so respect the sacrifice of those we depend on for life. We learn to better use the whole animal, even if it means not always having the best cut of meat. We become more efficient and less wasteful. No more leather cows and meat cows. Use the same damn animals. We treat the animals with respect. Yes we still eat them, but only after they've led a good life, not one where they are cramped, and we kill them humanely. We stop thanking gods for our food (who if they exist force suffering and murder as the only means to live) and start thanking the food itself for it's regretful sacrifice it was required to make for our survival, and recognizing and appreciating that sacrifice.
Where do we begin? One, personal, it starts with recognizing the truth, and letting go of the comforting delusion that life can be lived without relying on the suffering and pain of others. Then the recognition that while this horrid reality is true, such suffering can be lessened if we take efforts towards doing so. Three recognizing that animals have a right to live, even prey animals that would lose a place in our world were we to suddenly stop eating meat. After this, acceptance, we move onto fighting to create a better world. We support only humane business models, we help make humane practices profitable by promoting and purchasing their products while simultaneously doing what we can to hinder inhumane practices, boycotting their product and making sure their practices become no longer profitable.
Once you become vegan or vegetarian, you are no more a part of the solution than someone who buys meat from inhumane factory farms because in both cases neither individual is doing anything to actually encourage humane practices.
originally posted by: jamespond
originally posted by: DrumsRfun
a reply to: Skorpiogurl
I'm forced to argue with people about the fact that animals shouldn't be harmed... really?
We as a civilization,wouldn't be sitting here right now if we never killed or ate meat.
First man used to scavenge from predators and get their leftovers.
We then learned to hunt and kill and hence we survived.
A simple fact you might not have thought of.
Thank the meat eaters that you are sitting here today and have the freedom to have the choice not to eat it.
In the old days of mankind...you'd be dead.
I respect your choice but you might want to get your facts straight first.
The first men weren't eating meat that was raised on gm corn, growth hormone pills and antibiotics. Add to that the leftover things such as brains and spinal cords that are added back into the feed as well.
The responses I've seen so far are typical to what the OP talks about. The responses to veganism are vicious and probably contain a healthy dose of jealousy I think. All the noise comes from these miss informed meat eaters who think they know better than everyone else, rather than the other way around.
Meat today ain't like meat thousands of years ago. It certainly isn't a healthy choice, so don't kid yourself.
originally posted by: okrian
originally posted by: Skorpiogurl
originally posted by: stosh64
a reply to: Skorpiogurl
First you say,
I don't go around feeling or acting like I am better than anyone
Then you prove yourself wrong.
Furthermore, lately it's been really getting to me that I actually live in a world where I'm forced to argue with people about the fact that animals shouldn't be harmed
Sounds to me like you are not telling the true story.
No one is forcing you to argue, I get the feeling it is the other way around.
I have vegans as family members. They are the only ones who bring it up, constantly.
I dont care what anyone eats, screws or worships.
Just don't virtue signal your perceived superiority and we will get along just great.
Well it's like this...
I say nothing and cook my meal and/or place my order. And the looks... what are you eating? you don't eat meat? and then come the endless questions that almost always end up in someone getting defensive without being prompted too. I don't have perceived superiority and I don't have actual superiority. I don't give a crap what anyone eats or doesn't eat and no one should care what I eat in return. That's all. Really.
As someone who's been vegan for almost 30 years, I've also been dealing with this for almost 30 years. Same deal as you. I don't push it on anyone, don't try to convince anyone to do it, and fully agreed, someone will overhear me ordering, or some fool at a party will get all riled up and defensive cause I don't want cake and once I tell him I'm vegan and don't eat it it's like the war is on. GTFO with your bulsht insecurities. Nowhere was I trying to convince you to do anything. Eat the whole cake yourself. I could care less. I will say this though, it's a whole lot better these days than it was decades ago.
originally posted by: Skorpiogurl
So I have a question. Please no nasty responses!
I am a vegan simply for my own personal values. I don't say much about it and only talk about it when someone asks me about it. I don't go around feeling or acting like I am better than anyone and I never say a word about what other people chose to eat. So why is it that someone will ask me a question about it and once I answer it's like an all-out war.
originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: Skorpiogurl
I was vegan for a decade and I know what you are talking about, just saying you are vegan inspires criticism like people who are not vegan are offended or something.
I never campaigned against meat eaters, but the meat eaters got butt hurt and gave me loads of snip.
I still eat very little animal products and cook beans/pulses, but I totally know what you mean, just a life choice and the meat eaters get offended even if you aren't campaigning.
The meat eaters are worse than vegans in my opinion, something in their psyche they have to attack vegans.