410 years of Burial face Veil of Christ came to Manoppello, Italy

a reply to: TonyS

I may add that certainly is a swollen face, but primarily in the right side of it, where according with the gospels Christ received various slaps and there was also the stroke of the stick of the High Priest when he responded to him the key question of the interrogation.

If you focus your attention just on the left side you can see that the original face before it was marked by the physical punishment was thin.

Now, If a well experienced and ordained Rabbi from Sephardic origin tells me that Jewish ritual use for religious ceremonies of Byssus material was pretty common among the Hebrews of ancient times, even before the time of Christ, I must feel ,with entire confidence, forced to trust on the possibility that this relic is authentic.

I can say that this relic, even without having all the documented History we have on for instance the Holy Sudarium of Oviedo or the Holy Shroud of Turin, deserves to at least receive the benefit of the doubt.

Please check:

Manoppello veil: unexpected bridge to Judaism

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

I enjoyed reading that interview. It opened my mind a bit.

a reply to: toms54

Well, if you found interesting the interview, let's see what are going to be your impressions on this documentary that although in Italian contains some of the most intriguing images of the relic.

It shows close ups of the veil in which it is possible to see how that expression of the face changes according with the orientation of the light source.

Also it is possible to verify that the image remains invisible when we watch the veil in opposition to the Light, what clearly demonstrates there is No paint on it.

The image of Christ is only visible if there is an opaque thing behind it blocking the entrance of Light.

The image vanishes literally in the air and reappear as you walk in front of it, as suggesting is actually made of Light, the same Light described by St John in the preamble of his Gospel to talk about Christ role in the creation of the Universe.

Pls check

Extraordinary Close ups and the Scientific Tests carried out on my the Volto Santo Veil

It is said in the biography of St Father Pio that when he was young He came many times as pilgrim to venerate this Holy face from the neighbor town of St Giovanni Rotondo located at 3hrs by car across the mountains.

Now, when he became gravely sick in 1973, unable to walk at all, during his last days of life, He was seen by the monks of the Basilica praying on his knees in front of this Volto Santo altar, in one of the most famous of his miracles of bilocation.

That's not the first miracle attributed to the relic, today already Servant of God, father Domenico da Cese told in his memories that during his childhood there was a terrible earthquake that rocked all Abruzzi, by 1915 and that he foresaw in dreams.

He assured that after the seismic motion passed he and his father were alive but both trapped below a lot of rocks and other materials.

They were rescued from below the heavy debris by a man they never knew before, only weeks after when they went to the basilica in thanks giving, was when He realized their mysterious saviour was exactly the same man depicted in the veil.

Please check
The miracle of the Christ of the Manopello veil to Father Domenico da Cese, Servant of God


Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Looks like another fake like Shroud of Turin,nothing adds up,no evidence other then someones word,and that may have been guy trying to sell it

originally posted by: The angel of light

Pfeiffer's claims a purported impossibility of painting on byssus cloth, however, it is more precise to say that it is one of the most difficult materials to be imprinted or dyed at all, only great masters have been able to paint on it.

The gospel of John mentions that there were at least 2 burial cloths on the empty tomb of Christ, one used on his face, a Jewish burial veil, so even Not being the Veronica may be a Christ relic after all.

I may not be a believer but I love the stories of religious relics, these objects are fascinating because they've been well documented and taken care of for centuries and that's relatively rare outside of museums.

Wasn't the Shroud ofTurin considered a fake carried out by a Master, Leonardo Da Vinci to be exact.

One can only assume if these relics were both considered genuine then they'd have the axact same face on each?

originally posted by: crayzeed
There is only one small problem with this veil or any subsequent ones. Mr Pfeiffer's explanation of this veil is that it was placed on Jesus's face at the same time as the Shroud of Turin. But examining the two side by side the images do not in any way look alike so technically one of them or both of them are fakes. You choose, but you can't have both.

Oops, that will teach me to respond to the OP before reading the thread. Question answered...

a reply to: The angel of light

I watched your video, some parts more than once. The second time I turned on the CC and got a little out of that.

It gives a really good look at the veil. One thing that it solved for me was they superimposed the veil over the shroud several times. Now I am convinced they are 100% compatible.

If anyone wants to see this, the first time they do it is at the 1:00 minute mark on the film. It will dispel your doubts.

a reply to: djz3ro

Few times I ever had said this but yours and the posts that support yours are pityful, reveal how bad is the criteria of many in America, how easy is to fool many here due to pure ignorance.

Do you really have any idea who you are trying to undermine and link into a supposed crime that only can be conceived in a really mediocre mind?

Please use your own brain to mind carefully before to go into a hurry to repeat stupidities like a parrot that were devised by miserable minds looking they indeed for easy way to get money selling absurd twisted stories to ignorant people.

What need Da Vinci had to go in to fake a relic of Christ first when he was employed until the very last day of his life by kings?

He was a well aknowleged genious that didn't have any possible reason to risk his well deserved prestige in something so low, so miger and anti ethical.

Have you even tried to check that Davinci was born about two centuries after the first documented exhibition of the Shroud in the west, after the templates brought from their looting of Constantinople?

Please Learn History from serious and trustable sources, if you can Not take good courses in a College, not by reading cheap DaVinci code novels written only to profit from collective ignorance.

It is embarrassing that a mediocre author can become best seller in America writing fiction books plagued of lies against not only serious institutions but even against the very founder of the scientific and Humanist thinking in the western Civilization.

Those sad infamous nasty lies you are spreading are created not only to try to damage DaVinci legacy of science, that is simply monumental, are also smartly manufactured by a maxhievelan so corrupt minds that clearly do not respect Christ at all and try to undermine his giant spiritual contribution too to our civilization, and of course all the wonders and miracles He actually did.

You have all my mercy, please educate yourself, you are so vulnerable by remaining in the level you are now.

If you don't have neither money to pay for glasses to improve your evident short sight go into a foundation soon, there are actually dozens of points of matching in between the faces on Manoppello and on the Shroud, there were matched by modern computers.

Somebody gives you to compare two images of a man with his nose deviated and half of his face extremely swollen.

You instead to look for matching swollen side with swollen side you decide to turn one over the other in the other way around to claim that they do not match at all!!!

Of course if you are putting the right side of one over the left side of the other what do you want to obtain??

Excuse me but What is happening to you?? Is this a silly joke or what??, Are you aware of how absurd is your error?

This is all what I listen from you: "Ooouh, Soourry they Do not match Siiir because Thiiis ooone has its nooosee deviaaated to the leeeffft whiiile thee other to theeee riiiiggght!!!?"

It is sad to see blind people guided by other even more blind people.

Almost in every other country on this earth Dan Brown would have ben by sure sent to jail for irresponsibility in to twist well known Historical facts but in America He is even awarded for his audacity to sell a bunch of perverse corruptive lies.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

That's all pretty rich coming from someone who clearly has only a tenuous grip, at best, on the English language.

Perhaps it is you that needs some more education? Basic spelling, grammar and sentence construction?

a reply to: toms54

Hi tom54,

It is indeed a good video, to see a lot of details that are important in comparing the two relics.

Unfortunately it is not available in English, not that I know, but well images need not of too much translation to be understood.

Besides crazy theories, as many of the ones normally used to criticizes the Shroud in popular books or tabloids, it is clear that serious analysis shows a lot of strange coincidences in between two objects, more than what may occur at random if they were not related at all.

The two objects depict similar injuries on very look like face anatomy.

Thanks


The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: toms54

I'm intrigued enough to give it a look....

Thank you for inspiring me to look into this and not simply insulting me like the OP....

a reply to: The angel of light

Ha ha ha ha i think for myself, not what a book, written by mortal men and then selected, again by mortal men, which books should be included to fit the political agenda of the time. Those who live in glass houses and all thst, my post wasn't insulting, unlike yours, Angel of the light indeed.

Also not American....

a reply to: toms54
Are you in the real world or what? The Shroud of Turin shows a man with his mouth shut, a beard and a moustache. This other cloth shows a man mouth open and clean shaven. By all the gods in heaven they do not match. Remember they both were supposed to have been created at the same time, not time between for the man to get a shave.

a reply to: djz3ro

Well,

I am giving to you the benefit of the doubt, because you could be relatively a young person still under the influence of the media and sales phenomenon of the DaVinci code, a terrible negative incident occurred in the History of American popular literature that however influenced an entire generation.

What I am really so shocked here is to see somebody asking for theories about supposed forgeries that have been longly debunked since so many years ago, precisely since the only way they can be substantiated is using Davinci Code upside down conspiracies.

When I heard anybody asking or quoting or referring for theories in which Leonardo Da Vinci is mentioned in any way in connection with a possible manufacturing of a false relic that makes me feel so disappointed.

No body at all is able to fake any Historic object 200 hundred years before He was born, It is an insult to intelligence to try to accommodate theories around such an absurd thesis.

How many more years are needed to repair the incredible damage that Dan Brown has done to the American culture?

That is not too much different than to claim that a so much serious and busy man of science as it was Leonardo was a travesty guy that in his privacy liked to dress and makeup as a renaissance lady, with a dark wick, in order to pose in front a mirror to be able to paint his Master work The Gioconda, well when he was not naked taking photos of him pretending to be Jesus Christ three hundred years before photography was invented!!!??.


Please do not just trust my personal criteria, but I can assure you that any serious researcher or instructor in any reputed College or University in America or the rest of the world would tell you that Dan Brown literature is horrendously abusive and ridiculously irresponsible.

The guy stretched in such a way the license that supposedly exist on writing novels to mix fiction with History that he clearly entered in the realm of delusion or criminal alteration of History.

People that have tried to involve through mambo jambo obscure rituals Leonardo with a supposed forgery of the Shroud are no less History fakers than Brown, but well they saw the audacity of him, that he was not sued or incarcerated and they think such a precedent is irresistible to try to make money publishing any trash.

In fiction of History an author can introduce fiction characters and situations but Not in the core of a historic event in order to make it appear absolutely biased of what it was the reality, specially when he is suggesting criminal activities that supposedly were performed by people that are pillars over which civilization was founded.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: crayzeed

The Manoppello veil show a man with his beard and mustache partially plucked, not really shaved, and in that sense is even closer to the gospel accounts than anything else we have seen before, including the Shroud itself.

Concerning the Shroud of Turin it is since years ago observed that the impression on the cloth could not be completely reflecting any beard or mustache but what is called an impactogram, a visual effect from an swollen of tissues that have been brutally hit on the area around the mouth.

Please check:
colinb-sciencebuzz.blogspot.com...

The accounts of the New Testament do not mention emphatically the pulling of the beard, but the prophecies about the Messiah certainly did it since 500 years before Christ at least.

John 19: 3and went up to him again and again, saying, "Hail, king of the Jews!" And they slapped him in the face.

Mark 14: 65Then some began to spit on Him, to blindfold Him, and to beat Him, saying, "Prophesy!" The temple police also took Him and slapped Him.

Matthew 26, 67Then they spit in his face and struck him with their fists. ; others slapped Him 68and said, "Prophesy to us, Messiah. Who hit you?"

Isaiah 50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.

The Angel of Lightness

I've always wondered why Veronica and the Veil is one of the Stations of the Cross, but it is nowhere in the official Gospels.

a reply to: Blue Shift

Well,

Although i don't think there is a way this can be called the Veronica, since it looks more as a Jewish burial veil that couldn't be used to wipe any face for the thin texture of the fabric, the one you mention is described in a popular legend transmitted through generations and that in part was originated in the Holy land but was imported into Rome with the Jewish exile after the siege of Jerusalem of the 68 AD to 72A.D

Everything began being a Chant preserved in the folkloric traditions of Palestine at the very time of Christ that was unfolded in writing through different papers beginning by the Gospel of Nicodemus or Acts of Pilate, who give us the name of a woman already mentioned on the Gospel of Luke, linking her touching of a garment of Christ with a relic, which it is currently kept in St Peter Cathedral. That woman was cured by Jesus of a chronic bleeding of many years according with the Canonical gospel of St Luke.

This is the way the Veronica Cloth gradually was written down from what appears to be initially a legend transmitted orally among the Christians of Jerusalem on the 1st century:

An explicit mention of Veronica (usually connected with the bilingual phrase vera eikona but could also easily be a Latinization of the Greek name Berenike/Pherenike) first appears in the minor Gnostic Gospel known as the Acts of Pilate ( Gospel of Nicodemus)Chapter 5 Verse 26 (first written and revised many times between 150-400 AD), where, at least in the Second Greek and Latin version of it, she appears as the hemorrhaging woman cured by Jesus (the First Greek version does not name the woman):

1st Greek Form:...And a woman cried out from a distance, and said, "*I had an issue of blood, and I touched the hem of his garment, and the issue of blood which I had had for twelve years was stopped."...

2nd Greek Form:* ...There was found there also a woman named Veronica, and she said, "Twelve years I was in an issue of blood, and I only touched the edge of His garment, and directly I was cured."...

Latin Form:* ...And also a certain woman, Veronica by name, from afar off cried out to the governor, "I was flowing with blood for twelve years; and I touched the fringe of His garment, and immediately the flowing of my blood stopped."...

By the 7th-8th century, a work called The Avenging of the Savior continues the association of Veronica with the hemorrhaging woman. This also marks one of the first times that a mention of an image of Jesus in a cloth appears:

...[A]nd another woman, named Veronica, who suffered twelve years from an issue of blood, and came up to Him behind, and touched the fringe of His garment, He healed...

...And there came also the woman named Veronica, and said to him: "And I touched in the crowd the fringe of His garment, because for twelve years I had suffered from an issue of blood; and He immediately healed me..."

...And all who were in that same place said, "It is the woman called Veronica who has the portrait of the Lord in her house." And immediately he ordered her to be brought before his power. And he said to her, "Hast thou the portrait of the Lord in thy house?" But she said, "No." Then Velosianus ordered her to be put to the torture, until she should give up the portrait of the Lord. And she was forced to say, "I have it in clean linen, my lord, and I daily adore it." Velosianus said, "Show it to me."
Then she showed the portrait of the Lord. When Velosianus saw it, he prostrated himself on the ground; and with a ready heart and true faith he took hold of it, and wrapped it in cloth of gold, and placed it in a casket, and sealed it with his ring...

The story then continues with the veil being brought to Rome before the Emperor Tiberius, who was healed of a grave illness by gazing on it (the story also records that every sick and disabled person present during this audience was also healed), whereupon he converted to Christianity. Meanwhile, in another work, The Death of Pilate, Veronica tells Tiberius' messenger thus:

And Veronica said to him, "When my Lord was going about preaching, and I, much against my will, was deprived of His presence, I wished His picture to be painted for me, in order that, while I was deprived of His presence, the figure of His picture might at least afford me consolation. And when I was carrying the canvas to the painter to be painted, my Lord met me, and asked whither I was going. And when I had disclosed to Him the cause of my journey, He asked of me the cloth, and gave it back to me impressed with the image of His venerable face. Therefore, if thy lord will devoutly gaze upon His face, he shall obtain forthwith the benefit of health."

Here, she is a disciple of Jesus who who wished to have a picture of him. Jesus obliged her by pressing to his face a cloth which then bore his likeness. It is interesting to note that this story is quite similar to the story of King Abgar and the Mandylion of Edessa.

By the Middle Ages during William Caxton's (who translated Jacobus Voragine's Golden Legend) time, the incident in which this event happens was transferred: the imprinting of the cloth now occurs during the Passion, as Jesus makes his way to Calvary.

The Gospel of Nicodemus names several minor New Testament figures who were not named in the canonical texts; for example, the soldier who speared Jesus on the cross is named as Longinus and the two criminals crucified beside Jesus are named as Dimas and Gestas.

Also the Veronica Veil Legend is part of what is called the Christian apostolic tradition preserved in writings by the father founders of the church in between the third and sixth centuries.

The controversial part of the Manoppello veil is that Monsenor Pfeiffer had claimed it was the Holy Veronica, something I strongly disagree, it can Not be even the Mandylion or the Camuliana, because those relics were taken from the face of Christ in different times to his passion.

The Mandylion was an image sent by Christ to King Abgar of Edessa responding a letter asking or it at some point of Jesus ministry long before his passion, the Camuliana was a relic appeared floating on a river in Cappadocia possibly on the 2nd or third century of our era.

Of course any Claim that this is the Veronica necessarily triggers a huge scandal since there are many millions invested in the world on official touched copies of that relic and they were all certified by St. Peter Cathedral at the Vatican, not by Manoppello Basilica.

Pfeiffer , a Jesuit, made a really bold move into claim that without being really sure firing an unnecessary confrontation between the Capuchin Franciscans and the Holy Face veneration congregation and Chapter of the Holy see.

Thanks

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: Blue Shift

By the way this is not my Thread of the Holy Veronica, if you want to read more about that specific relic of Christ please refer to the following thread I created years ago:

Pls check

St Peters Cathedral Veronica Cloth Thread by Angel of Lightness

Now, Although there is an account of a miracle of an image of Christ that was visible on an exhibition of the Veronica in St Peter on XIX century, no body until now have showed through a clear scientific test obeying international protocols that the Veronica has paranormal properties, at least not in an officially acceptable way.

The Miracle occurred on January 6th of 1849, it was a transfiguration of the spots on the Veronica that suddenly took full form of a Human face, it was visible for at least two hours and artistic depictions based on sketches of it are the ones we can see since then on official copies of the relic touched to the original.

Please check:
Miracle of Transfiguration of the St Peters Veronica on January 6th of 1849

There is however an image processing analysis by an Australian photographer and amateur film scientist named Vincent Ruello that in 2011 claimed to have shown that the Veronica Veil from St Peters is authentic.

Through a process of 3D negative filming that he previously used on the Shroud of Turin, the injured face of Christ was revealed.

The problem with his test is that was carried out with distant photos of the relic, he really couldn't take any close up on it, however he has been promoting his books on that apparently with some success.

Please check:
Vicent Ruello tests on the Veronica Veil films to show 3D properties of the image

Thanks,

The Angel of Lightness

LOL'ing at 'Abrizzi'.

It's Abruzzi.

originally posted by: The angel of light
a reply to: Blue Shift

By the way this is not my Thread of the Holy Veronica, if you want to read more about that specific relic of Christ please refer to the following thread I created years ago:

I think it's part of the overall "meme" of somebody capturing some kind of image of Jesus in some way, which is then worshiped as a supernatural artifact of its own, and certainly one step closer to idolatry.