What is a "victim"?

So, I got into it with someone yesterday about the whole migrants-getting-gassed situation. To cut out the extensive amount of BS I heard, the long and short of it is that she called them "victims" and it got me thinking. What is a victim?

If you break into my house and I shoot you. Am I the victim or are you?

By definition we both are, but shouldn't I be considered more of a victim or a different type of victim? I mean, my actions were a forced response to defend against actions instigated by you.

It's like saying someone who is guilty of rape is the victim because they are being prosecuted and thrown in jail.

In these situations, the person who breaks in and the rapist both know they are breaking the law. They willingly put themselves in a position to become a victim. I think there needs to be a word for that.

The definition is basically, "someone who becomes a victim through actions they instigate, knowing a negative result was likely"

If there's already a word for that, please tell me what it is so I know what to call these... these... UGH, WHAT DO YOU CALL THEM!

If not, let's create one. In today's society that's definitely a void that needs to be filled.

Any ideas? I'm hoping for something succinct and clever.

I suppose the other option is to come up with a word that describes the actual victim. The person who becomes a victim as a result of someone or something else's actions.

The word "victim" just carries way too much ambiguity to be used seriously.

Anyway, if you're curious how the conversation ended, I told her the United States and the border patrol agents are the actual victims because they were responding to actions instigated by the migrants. Her emotions then got the best of her and resorted to name calling. No surprise there.

a reply to: scojak

It pretty much takes a psychopath to view the victim as the aggressor.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: scojak

It pretty much takes a psychopath to view the victim as the aggressor.

Were the individuals at the border victims or aggressors?

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

Everyone there is an individual.

To take your meaning though I would see the migrants as the victims.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

But the migrants were breaking the law by crossing illegally and were throwing rocks. How are they not the aggressors in this situation?

ETA: I suppose you could say the rocks were a response to the tear gas, but the initial action was breaking the wall and crossing illegally. To me, that makes them the instigator/aggressor in the situation.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

Everyone there is an individual.

To take your meaning though I would see the migrants as the victims.

And I would argue while everyone there is in fact an individual, they collectively chose to try to forcibly enter a country illegally. They were victims of the receiving end of tear gas. Due to how the winds were, children were also forced to deal with tear gas. We know the border patrol set off the tear gas. But who is at fault for the children? Is it the winds? The USA for protecting it's border through non lethal means? Or the individuals who chose to test the limits of border control?

The migrants rushing the border were the aggressors.

Just like say, Michael Brown was the aggressor. To view him as the victim would be 100% wrong. Same In this situation. Those individuals rushing the border were the aggressors and at no point did they become the victims.

Maybe, maybe, some individuals who were not rushing the border got caught up in the responding action and those people, may be victims.

Like was said above, to view the aggressors as victims is psychopathic. Those migrants are aggressors.

a reply to: scojak

No they are already victims, victims fleeing a place they are not safe, they are seeking safety not teargas.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

From a legal point you are correct however from a humanitarian point where is your empathy ?

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

From a legal point you are correct however from a humanitarian point where is your empathy ?

My empathy is with my children.
Where is is your empathy?

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

I would hope you would care deeply for your children as I do mine, my empathy is on display, I don't like seeing people that are already so down and out being trodden on. As far as I'm concerned using migrants in peril as an excuse to score political points is sub human, I'm ashamed to be part of the human race when I see this crap unfold.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: randomtangentsrme

I would you would hope you care deeply for your children as I do mine, my empathy is on display, I don't like seeing people that are already so down and out being trodden on. As far as I'm concerned using migrants in peril as an excuse to score political points is sub human, I'm ashamed to be part of the human race when I see this crap unfold.

I'm sorry. What are you insinuating? Please respond after a minute of thought and reflection.

a reply to: scojak

If I go poke a sleeping bear with a stick, am I a victim if the bear tear gasses me?

Simple. Don't go where you don't belong. Don't do stupid sheet. Then you don't have to cry 'victim.' One must deal with the consequences of their actions instead.

Being a victim is a choice (learned helplessness.) You can get back up, or stay down and piss your shorts while waiting for someone to come along and pick your sorry keister back up.


Flame on!

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: scojak

No they are already victims, victims fleeing a place they are not safe, they are seeking safety not teargas.

To many assumptions......


*They are already victims* ....Really? Battered? Bruised? emaciated? Rags?

*They are not safe* ... Really? Shelter? Food? Well clothed? Attacked?

*They are seeking safety* .... Really? Or a better life?


The adults have survived somewhere for many years they seem well clothed

and well fed even managed to procreate.

a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

I lost a business and my home as a result of illegal immigration and you want me to have empathy for these people coming here and demanding handouts that they want me to pay for? I can tell you what they can do with their empathy. If you want to save the world go for it. I dare you to make the same sacrifices I did because I know damn well you wouldn't.

What about all the American citizens and vets that are homeless and have nothing? Where's your empathy for them? What are you doing for them? I don't read your post after post of you speaking up for them like you have with the immigrants.

I guarantee you beyond a shadow of a doubt if these poor immigrants went and spent a few nights in the Bronx, Compton, South Central or South Side Chicago they would be begging for a ticket back home, that is if they even made it a few nights. Sorry, but so sick of this bleeding heart save the world BS, when the same people won't lift a GD finger to help people in their own country that need it worse than a lot of these migrants from other countries. If you don't believe me, go take a stroll in some of the neighborhoods I mentioned, go before dark.

So you tell me who the real victims are?

.

a reply to: randomtangentsrme

It's not complicated, I'm insinuating you are as big of a monster as those that would profit from this.

a reply to: mtnshredder

You lost your business and home through bad management and poor decision making.

You are a victim of your own shortcomings.

originally posted by: hopenotfeariswhatweneed
a reply to: mtnshredder

You lost you're business and home through bad management and poor decision making.

No, I lost it thru a flood of illegals in my small town that I could no longer compete with and maintain a legal business as required by law. I wasn't certainly not the only one, so don't give me your crap about poor decisions or bad management because it was neither.

Don't try and talk about something you know nothing about.

a reply to: mtnshredder

Yep everything you did was everybody else's fault, I know how you feel when I make a mistake I blame someone else... of course when I get it right it was all me...

a reply to: eletheia

Speaking of assumption.....