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Alabama police suggest man they killed in mall shouldn't have held his gun

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posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 06:56 AM
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As a firearms instructor and CCW holder for many years, some here may not like my answer(s), but the way I look at it is like this:

1. Shooting situations are usually chaos.
2. Cops really don't appreciate it (in fact they hate it) when civilians play the role of "cop", doesn't matter what color you are.
3. Right or wrong, law enforcement today is very likely to shoot first and ask forgiveness later. (it's a training issue)
4. If you're a bad guy, and you pose a threat to me, and I shoot at you, I'm probably going to hit you and very likely more than once. However, I'm going to be very judicious about shooting at you to begin with. My sole purpose is to get the bad guy to stop being a threat to me, nothing more.
5. It's not like the movies. People who get shot don't fly through the air in some dramatic scene. More often than not they don't even realize they're shot at first. And then, they usually crawl off somewhere. I'm not going to come looking for the bad guy.
6. I will see you (bad guy) before you see me. You're the one making all the noise. I won't be making any at all.
7. I will also very likely see / hear law enforcement when they arrive, again, before they see me.
8. I am no match for multiple heavily armed LEO's, nor do I ever want to be! NOR, do I want to be perceived as a threat to them. (Refer to items #2 and #3)
9. My fight is over the very second I see / hear law enforcement on scene.
10. I will immediately disengage, safe and holster my firearm, then lay face down, spread eagle. I will then prepare to be detained, arrested and questioned (and probably not very nicely either). There will be no discussion. My attorney will be present for any and all questioning.

In other words, I will do everything in my power to survive and not incriminate myself in the process.

The basic premise behind the CCW is to protect yourself and your loved ones. Recent laws have extended the legal use of firearms outside of this sphere in some special cases, due to a variety of special circumstances. These exceptions do not make a CCW holder a cop, nor are they intended to. I am not a cop.

I suspect the victim in this case was probably trying to just do a good deed and assist. (refer again to item #2...never, ever, forget item #2!). That was a big mistake on his part if true, and it very likely cost him his life.

I think a lot of times CCW holders have this perception that law enforcement will easily be able to identify them as good guys and will appreciate their assistance in an incident like this. They cant, and they don't! Period. The other thing I think many CCW holders forget is if you fire a shot in every circumstance you WILL be taken into custody (no "if's", you will). And you WILL be treated as a criminal, NOT a hero. Even if you don't fire a shot, if you, at any point, drew a loaded firearm there's a pretty good chance of you being detained. Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, most CCW holders wouldn't hide from the cops, but they don't realize the cops only see them as a person with a gun. Because of this, they may very well be the first person the cops see. (see item #3)

Just my .02

P.S. The victim was not the only one at fault here, and I believe LEO's should be held 100% accountable for wrongful shootings, and failure to perform proper threat assessment. The courts always seem to give them a pretty big pass in this area.

edit on 11/27/2018 by Flyingclaydisk because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:06 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Absolutely 100 % spot on.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:21 AM
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Another thing to consider...

99% of cops have never shot anyone. The vast majority of cops have never shot anything but a target. Targets aren't people. Not all cops are hunters, and have never shot any game. Cops watch movies just like everyone else.

When someone doesn't fly through the air, or scream in agony, or immediately fall to the floor after they shoot them, an overwhelming majority are likely to shoot again, and again...and again.

9mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP pistols are LOUD, and they're usually a LOT louder than the person shooting expects (confined spaces, etc.). The first shot will usually temporarily deafen, or significantly impair, the shooter's unprotected hearing. This can sometimes be a shock. Prior to this, most of their shooting has been at the range with hearing protection. There is sometimes a mentality (I call it the "ice water" mentality) of okay they shot once (now I'm all wet, why not jump in) and fire several more times. I'm temporarily deaf anyway, so keep going.

Lastly, there's the "me too" mentality (not in the victim sense). Well, if he's shooting, then I guess I might as well start pulling the trigger too.

When you couple all these things together, it does help with the understanding of why perpetrators (or perceived perpetrators) get shot so many times.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:31 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

A lot of that seems plausible. Some people have another reaction of realizing that shots will kill someone. That does go against shoot until guaranteed that the person can't move though. Of course if you start with go for dead it isn't an issue.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:31 AM
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And one more thing...CCTV footage.

Many people believe that CCTV cameras see everything. They seldom do, and rarely do they see both sides of something like a shooting. A camera may record images of someone shooting, but it likely won't record what they're shooting at. Conversely, a camera may record images of someone getting shot, but not how shot them (unless they are in very close proximity). Sure, a small convenience store robbery may capture both the perp and the victim in the same frames, but in a big space like a mall or the like it's unlikely.

Some CCW holders believe their actions will immediately be exonerated when the CCTV surveillance images are reviewed by authorities. Surprisingly, this is seldom the case.

For the same reasons an LEO is likely to encounter a CCW holder before he encounters the perpetrator, so too is the CCW holder likely to be the one captured by many of the CCTV images (and not the perp). Remember, the CCW holder is not trying to hide (only take cover), whereas the perp very much is trying to hide (once he's been fired upon...and perps are generally cowards in reality).



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:31 AM
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a reply to: dreamingawake

One of the most disturbing aspects of this is that because of their knee-jerk assumption -- man with gun must be guilty -- they not only shot and killed a good guy, they stopped paying attention and allowed the REAL murderer to escape.

And then they were so busy strutting their cock of the walk that it took them a couple days to figure it out!!!

Absolutely shameful.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:33 AM
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a reply to: shawmanfromny


Running from a shooting scene, with a gun in your hand, when officers are on scene, is a HUGE red flag, no matter if you're white or black. They don't know whether you're the perpetrator, or the good samaritan who shot the bad guy.


Exactly... They had NO IDEA!!! But they shot anyway. They had just as much reason to think it was a legally armed citizen fleeing the scene.

He wasn't actively shooting anyone. Officers had no cause to shoot this man.


The trouble is, people who own concealed carry permits ARE NOT trained properly and most are NOT proactive in obtaining proper training.


Maybe. I definitely know that police and other LEOs need better and proper training.

And someone needs to challenge Tennessee vs Garner, which is the justification for shooting anyone for anything less than genuine self defense or defense of others.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:38 AM
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a reply to: roadgravel

I honestly don't believe the majority of LEO's every go into a situation "wanting" to shoot or kill someone. I'm sure there may be some, but not the vast majority. If nothing else, it's a MOUNTAIN of paperwork. Rather, what I think happens is the situation takes control of their actions and they become consumed by it. Within a split second things spiral out of control, and then as fast as it started it's over.

This is evidenced by how many shots actually miss their intended targets. The effective hit to miss ratio is very low. It's probably the highest stress situation the human brain can process, and the results speak for themselves.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea

This mentality is definitely a training and law enforcement culture issue today.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:49 AM
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a reply to: Boadicea




Exactly... They had NO IDEA!!! But they shot anyway. They had just as much reason to think it was a legally armed citizen fleeing the scene.

He wasn't actively shooting anyone. Officers had no cause to shoot this man.


I would agree. Not defending their actions, but imagine how the situation unfolded from their perspective. Then add in the "kill anyone with a gun so they don't kill me first" culture issue, and what do you have?

You have exactly what happened in this instance more than likely. So yes, it's a training issue.

"To Serve and Protect"...has been replaced with...
"I am ENTITLED to go home tonight, and I will kill anyone who looks like they could stop me!"

That's a fundamental training breakdown.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 07:54 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Could be true. If training were kill or be killed then it would make sense for an all out response.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 08:59 AM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk


I would agree. Not defending their actions, but imagine how the situation unfolded from their perspective. Then add in the "kill anyone with a gun so they don't kill me first" culture issue, and what do you have? 

You have exactly what happened in this instance more than likely. So yes, it's a training issue.


You summed that up perfectly.

And I just want to add that I cannot defend their actions either, but I can defend the LEOs in general, because they deserve better training and especially better defensive tactics and equipment.

We aren't doing them any favors by turning them into cowardly murderers.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 09:50 AM
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originally posted by: Flyingclaydisk
a reply to: Boadicea

This mentality is definitely a training and law enforcement culture issue today.



It is not just training. It is a liability issue.

I for one believe in Equal Justice & Personal Liability for those "officers" who shoot first and ask questions later. They should be personal liable, have their assets seized and go to prison like everyone else when they murder someone.

All to often our "officers" are covered by the taxpayer and can generally kill anyone if they whine that they were in 'Fear For Their Lives".

There is a running joke on many boards whenever there is a cop shooting..... "Did the Officer Make It Home Safely".

Because somehow they are not public servants anymore and see the public as the enemy.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 11:10 AM
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100% this. I get it, but that doesn't make it right.

My only big hiccup with this case is that I read an interview with someone who was there that said the gun was not point and the police did not say anything before shooting. I'm looking for this article right now... Always have to take eye witnesses with a grain of salt though.

I don't think this is as severe of a 'black guy shot by police case' as others. They approached an active shooter situation and unfortunately shot someone with a gun. Should they have surveyed the scene better? Yes. Should they have tried to deescalated more? Yes. Did they think their life was in danger? I have no idea, probably.

While this was unfortunate and should have never happened, I don't think it was malicious intent as some videos I have seen of African American's getting shot in the back or 12 times.
edit on 27-11-2018 by headorheart because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 11:36 AM
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a reply to: dreamingawake

Others may already have said this, but it's worth noting again if they have:

When you carry a firearm, that firearm should be about 90% for the protection of yourself and immediate family or group of people who you are with if a deadly threat breaks out. The other 10% is for the protection of other people with whom you are not acquainted, such as a large crowded mall on Black Friday Eve.

Here is the problem with what Mr. Bradford did, as far as I can tell at this point: He assumed the responsibility to attempt to chase down a person suspected of assaulting people with a deadly weapon. Assuming that he even had eyes on the shooter or a positive identification, chasing down someone already known to be willing to shoot in such a crowded area puts everyone else in danger. Also, brandishing your own weapon and being ready to shoot in such a crowded scenario more than doubles the odds of someone else getting injured.

Unfortunately, those odds include yourself, whether it's at the hands of the original shooter or by police trying to make sense of a chaotic situation...or even by another firearm carrier who may mistake you for the original shooter.

Like the family is saying, waiting for bodycam footage and surveillance footage is key to see how Mr. Bradford reacted and what the police did in this situation, but in the midst of chaos, poor decisions are bound to happen on all sides of the equation, so to pretend that only the officers hold possible culpability at this point is a bit premature, for both the family and the court of public opinion.

These types of situations absolutely suck, but they also drive home the point that, if you carry a firearm and have the intention of ever using it in the protection of others, you MUST train for these types of situations and have a better understanding of what you SHOULD do. When it comes down to it in the middle of chaos, you can only control what you do, and even that takes practice (and is still never a given that the practice will work). Hoping that police will not shoot before yelling commands, or hoping that someone else will not injure you or attack you, is not the best way to handle a situation like this.

In a perfect world, Mr. Bradford would have already realized the amount of law enforcement and employed security in the mall, and he would have already understood that brandishing it and running with it would not be a good idea. I know that it sounds paranoid or even a bit crazy, but when you properly train and cultivate this mindset, these are the things that go through your head, amongst many, many others.

I'm sad for Mr. Bradford and his family and friends, but I don't think that there is criminal or even really civil liability on behalf of the officer(s) who fired at Mr. Bradford. And the family lawyer isn't doing the family any favors with these types of remarks:

"It doesn't matter if you're a good guy with a gun, if you're black the police shoot and kill you and ask questions later," Crump said.

NBCNews

Sometimes sh*tty mistakes happen, even to trained people--unfortunately, that sometimes ends in loss of life. I sincerely hope that there was no racially motivated reasons why the officer(s) fired on and killed Mr. Bradford.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 11:40 AM
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originally posted by: headorheart
I don't think this is as severe of a 'black guy shot by police case' as others. They approached an active shooter situation and unfortunately shot someone with a gun. Should they have surveyed the scene better? Yes. Should they have tried to deescalated more? Yes. Did they think their life was in danger? I have no idea, probably.

You also must keep in mind that the officers have a duty to protect the public, as well, and in the scene of a crowded mall with an active-shooter situation, sometimes the shoot-first scenario is what ends up being the best option given the circumstances.

Like you say, this whole thing was very unfortunate, and Mr. Bradford did do enough wrong that helped the sad end result play out. I'm not passing the buck or shifting blame, I'm just saying it like it is.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 12:18 PM
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a reply to: dreamingawake

Th biggest problem is when Police are called, someone is going to die. Do the right thing, Don't call the Police.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: Bramble Iceshimmer
a reply to: dreamingawake

Th biggest problem is when Police are called, someone is going to die. Do the right thing, Don't call the Police.


You know, as silly as that sounds, there's actually some truth in this statement!

When I was a little kid there was a fire station down the road. The fire trucks would sit there in the fire house for weeks sometimes without going anywhere. About 15 years ago (no longer a kid) there was a fire station down the road. The population of the area the fire station served was about the same as the one when I was a kid. Those fire trucks ran up and down the road, sirens wailing, 24x7. They spent more time out of the fire house than in it, and when they were there they were never there long enough to cool down. People now days call 9-1-1 for a freaking splinter.

Same thing with the cops. In the town I lived in we had 2 Sheriff's vehicles, and most of the time they hung around the local diners and donut shops. There was one other SAR guy who served as a deputized alternate. Same sized town now has (35-40) Sheriff's vehicles, an Armored Personnel Carrier, a SWAT team, a Mobile Command Post and a staff of nearly 200 people. People call the cops for everything. Somebody looks at them wrong, and they're dialing 9-1-1.

Maybe if more people started taking care of their own, and not expecting to have someone ELSE to always do it, there might not be as many incidents like the one in the OP.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: Bramble Iceshimmer
a reply to: dreamingawake

Th biggest problem is when Police are called, someone is going to die. Do the right thing, Don't call the Police.


You know, as silly as that sounds, there's actually some truth in this statement!

When I was a little kid there was a fire station down the road. The fire trucks would sit there in the fire house for weeks sometimes without going anywhere. About 15 years ago (no longer a kid) there was a fire station down the road. The population of the area the fire station served was about the same as the one when I was a kid. Those fire trucks ran up and down the road, sirens wailing, 24x7. They spent more time out of the fire house than in it, and when they were there they were never there long enough to cool down. People now days call 9-1-1 for a freaking splinter.

Same thing with the cops. In the town I lived in we had 2 Sheriff's vehicles, and most of the time they hung around the local diners and donut shops. There was one other SAR guy who served as a deputized alternate. Same sized town now has (35-40) Sheriff's vehicles, an Armored Personnel Carrier, a SWAT team, a Mobile Command Post and a staff of nearly 200 people. People call the cops for everything. Somebody looks at them wrong, and they're dialing 9-1-1.

Maybe if more people started taking care of their own, and not expecting to have someone ELSE to always do it, there might not be as many incidents like the one in the OP.



posted on Nov, 27 2018 @ 03:04 PM
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a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Cops didn't show up and shoot this guy why?
Alabama McDonald's gunman killed by armed dad, who is injured in shootout

edit on 27-11-2018 by AScrubWhoDied because: (no reason given)



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