US Low Birthrate like many other western nations

originally posted by: stormcell

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: toysforadults

If a nation has a low birth rate and an aging population (who will retire and become an increasing unproductive load on the economy). I can think of no better way to support ongoing productivity than to import workers.

They usually spend their savings on their families, children and grand-children. If the birth rate has gone down it's because the economists wanted both partners to go out and work for the corporations, thus doubling the economic output. Then families have to wait until they are in their late 30's or 40's to start a family once they can afford somewhere with good schools and neighbourhoods.

In the decade after WWII, one man could buy a house, a car, and the wife could raise a family. Is the standard of living really so much better now? even with all our electronic junk? There were problems to be solved, sure, but did we have to destroy the family to solve them? Are those problems even solved? Listining to all these protests makes me think we destroyed our way of life for nothing.

a reply to: toysforadults

Actually the people who can't afford kids and have other people paying for them have more.

It's because kids are expensive. If you pay for them you can't have many.

Waaaaaaaaaaay of base OP. We have an Estrogen problem thanks to all those birth control pills going into the water. That is why we have this snowflake problem in 1st world countries.

chestsculpting.com...

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: hopenotfeariswhatweneed

Yes. You're correct. Really, I don't know what came over me.

And that is why no one is ready to shine light into the heart of the subject, because you will be scorned from the ones that WANT to remain ignorant for daring to seek the truth.

They want statistics and easily accessible peer reviewed articles that have authors or organization they support.

It is interesting what our true motives were in the past for bringing children into the world. Was it for love or survival? Were children a net positive with a low price tag simply due to the lifestyle. They produced labor and end of life security. But in today's world, not so much. If anything they are becoming a liability, especially with the state involved.

What I don't understand is why a low birth rate is bad? The only situation where that would be bad is if the human race were so few in numbers, we are facing extinction. Or if our economy is a pyramid scam and if new workers are not introduced into the system, it will eventually collapse.

originally posted by: chr0naut

originally posted by: Breakthestreak
a reply to: chr0naut

“Workers” being the optimum word there. It looks like you agree with President Trump after all.
I mean, importing workers is kind of the whole point of legal immigration. Something the Trump administration has supported from day one.

As for ‘increasing unproductive loads on the economy’, yeah I wonder where we can get more of that from??

Also, except for the Native Americans, the American population is almost entirely immigrants

So wait. You're telling me the "Native" Americans were always here? From the beginning of time? Thats a new one to me.

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: toysforadults

Actually the people who can't afford kids and have other people paying for them have more.

It's because kids are expensive. If you pay for them you can't have many.

We appear to have developed a "breeder" class of single mothers which is looked down upon by the rest of the population. Maybe someday people will realize how empty and meaningless their lives are before they reach the age of forty and try to have families again.

a reply to: toysforadults

Did it ever occur to you that folks in the US might not have as many children because they are being responsible? Those that are not perpetually on welfare actually have to pay for the needs of their children and that is a crap load of responsibility and very expensive. With housing and education costs through the roof someone that is responsible has to realistically look at the costs. Now if you are on Section 8 housing, food stamps/ disability/ welfare / medicaid/ if might behoove you to have more to keep those "benefits" coming.

originally posted by: InTheLight
The downward or leveling off birthrate trend seems to apply to many countries around the world. I think many factors could be contributing to this, such as economic health of a country. I know one thing, my two children of childbearing age are choosing not to have children because of the state of the economy (hard to get ahead financially, hard to afford childcare etc.) and the poor state of the environment (toxic), to just name two reasons given to me by them.

www.indexmundi.com...

My daughters are the same (18 & 21). My oldest absolutely, unequivocally has stated many times that she does not want to raise children. Factors include the economy, environment and she doesn't feel that she would be able to care for a child with her issues.
My youngest states that if she ever decided to be a mother that she would prefer to adopt a child that needs a family. I was adopted and we adopted my three nephews, so I suppose she feels that bond in that way even though it IS different than having given birth, IMO. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

For a bit, I took it as a reflection of my child raising being lacking or them feeling as if I was a bad mother and both have told me that it was because I was a good mother that they have taken this stance. It still doesn't quite seem right but, it is their choice and their explanations.

a reply to: ClovenSky

I agree with everything you're saying. As for the last part "why a low birth rate is bad?" It isn't.

The current theory is that we need them to pay our pensions. In other words, yes, "our economy is a pyramid scam and if new workers are not introduced into the system, it will eventually collapse." This theory is no doubt propagated by the boomer generation who have made careers from ripping off their childrens' future. They have perfected a parasitic lifestyle which, at this point, can only be solved by automation.

originally posted by: Bicent
We are just approaching the end of a era in our civilization. As far as the human condition, that will never ever change. Selfish people are born every day combine that with stupidity and things will break.

I hear all this talk about selfish people on this thread... I am of absolute certainty that those that point the selfish finger are jewels of altruism, and generous, kind and empathetic to a fault...That's why you are frittering your life away on forums, to save the world..... give me a break....

a reply to: pointessa

Excellent point. The neighbors of my Grand mother used to do just that. Openly admitted it. They would have a new child every year to collect on that child. I find it hard to believe this was an isolated incident.

Last I knew, they were up to 10 or so children.

originally posted by: TNMockingbird

originally posted by: InTheLight
The downward or leveling off birthrate trend seems to apply to many countries around the world. I think many factors could be contributing to this, such as economic health of a country. I know one thing, my two children of childbearing age are choosing not to have children because of the state of the economy (hard to get ahead financially, hard to afford childcare etc.) and the poor state of the environment (toxic), to just name two reasons given to me by them.

www.indexmundi.com...

My daughters are the same (18 & 21). My oldest absolutely, unequivocally has stated many times that she does not want to raise children. Factors include the economy, environment and she doesn't feel that she would be able to care for a child with her issues.
My youngest states that if she ever decided to be a mother that she would prefer to adopt a child that needs a family. I was adopted and we adopted my three nephews, so I suppose she feels that bond in that way even though it IS different than having given birth, IMO. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

For a bit, I took it as a reflection of my child raising being lacking or them feeling as if I was a bad mother and both have told me that it was because I was a good mother that they have taken this stance. It still doesn't quite seem right but, it is their choice and their explanations.

I too had a twinge of thinking that maybe our parenting was less than perfect, but both my children assured me that it was those other factors, and more, in my previous post. They also apologized to me that I would never be a grandmother, but without lots of money and the wherewithall or desire to be able to put your best foot forward into parenting, I told them it was the right decision and what I want does not matter in that decision.

originally posted by: TNMockingbird

originally posted by: InTheLight
The downward or leveling off birthrate trend seems to apply to many countries around the world. I think many factors could be contributing to this, such as economic health of a country. I know one thing, my two children of childbearing age are choosing not to have children because of the state of the economy (hard to get ahead financially, hard to afford childcare etc.) and the poor state of the environment (toxic), to just name two reasons given to me by them.

www.indexmundi.com...

My daughters are the same (18 & 21). My oldest absolutely, unequivocally has stated many times that she does not want to raise children. Factors include the economy, environment and she doesn't feel that she would be able to care for a child with her issues.
My youngest states that if she ever decided to be a mother that she would prefer to adopt a child that needs a family. I was adopted and we adopted my three nephews, so I suppose she feels that bond in that way even though it IS different than having given birth, IMO. Not necessarily better or worse, just different.

For a bit, I took it as a reflection of my child raising being lacking or them feeling as if I was a bad mother and both have told me that it was because I was a good mother that they have taken this stance. It still doesn't quite seem right but, it is their choice and their explanations.

It sounds to me like you are a good mother. You taught your kids to look at things realistically, even if it's not pleasant to do so..They sound like thoughtful young women.

a reply to: InTheLight

a reply to: pointessa

Thank you both for your replies


It is a little disappointing, at times, that I will likely never be a grandmother.

I am the friend that co workers bring their babies to to hold for them so I get my "baby fix" now and then. Plenty of young people in my part of the world still having babies but, juggling their careers (the Dads and Moms) with parenthood is difficult to say the least especially if there is not much of a family support system for them...grandparents and such.

a reply to: toms54

I would say it's a class without a real sense of personal responsibility.

a reply to: toms54

Thank you for those kind words. I also salute your attempt to bring other points of view into this thread.

There is a trend where certain posters always demand data and 'facts'. I am starting to see this demand as revealing more about the poster and their bias compared to actually seeking information.

I wonder, are we really that more narcissistic and selfish than in times past? Or has the entire environment changed that makes our eternal selfishness work in a different manner today.

Maybe now bringing children into the world has a completely different meaning than it did. Instead of labor and security, it is now about vanity. Vanity of continuing yourself. Or has it always been that way and the labor/security factor was a side benefit in times past?

Is being selfish that bad of a thing. Is having ego that much of a detriment to society. Are there different levels or different polarizations for each. Maybe there is a healthy ego and a unhealthy ego. I just have a suspicion that if it weren't for selfishness and ego, we as a human race wouldn't exist on this planet today.

originally posted by: toms54
a reply to: chr0naut

We don't need to import workers. The only reason to do that is if you want a large group of low wage brown skinned servants to push around.

Our problems will be solved with automation. Of course we should still strive to attract foreign talent but not large groups of poorly educated migrants. Look to Japan for a direction. Soon we will have self driving trucks and cars. How many workers will that free up? The only job openings for these migrants will be drug dealing positions in an ever expanding criminal class.

We have had mechanization since the Industrial Revolution and computerization for decades. Although AI is a relatively new twist, I can't foresee great improvements in productivity or sales for most businesses.

While it is true that in many industries AI is disruptive it doesn't universally affect every industry or service.

Automation concentrates wealth into the hands of the machinery owners. This has the effect of suppressing the purchase of goods and services because it displaces people from the workforce and the overall economy suffers as fewer can afford to pay.

The fact that today we still cannot tax productivity in automated industry properly (machines pay no income tax) means that the public purse also reduces drastically.

In Japan, they have a consistently lower unemployment rate than the US, despite automation. I'm not sure what you imagine the Japanese model is.

Immigrants compete for exactly the same variety of jobs that everyone else does and have a broad skill sets like everyone else. You are suggesting that the only option for anyone in the future is crime, which is nonsense. That you envision immigrants as preferentially being criminal indicates an unfounded prejudice.

If your government dealt with drug issues properly (as medical issues, not criminal) and destroyed the profitability of the illegal drug business (through legal prescription of drugs, medically controlled distribution and reasonable pricing) then the illegal drug economy would collapse.

originally posted by: ClovenSky
a reply to: toms54

Thank you for those kind words. I also salute your attempt to bring other points of view into this thread.

There is a trend where certain posters always demand data and 'facts'. I am starting to see this demand as revealing more about the poster and their bias compared to actually seeking information.

I wonder, are we really that more narcissistic and selfish than in times past? Or has the entire environment changed that makes our eternal selfishness work in a different manner today.

Maybe now bringing children into the world has a completely different meaning than it did. Instead of labor and security, it is now about vanity. Vanity of continuing yourself. Or has it always been that way and the labor/security factor was a side benefit in times past?

Is being selfish that bad of a thing. Is having ego that much of a detriment to society. Are there different levels or different polarizations for each. Maybe there is a healthy ego and a unhealthy ego. I just have a suspicion that if it weren't for selfishness and ego, we as a human race wouldn't exist on this planet today.

I wonder if those that describe the desire to procreate as being selfish ego have ever birthed or raised children? I have and selfishness and ego were no part of the equation, rather a hormonal/chemical mix was present, as is normal for us.

a reply to: InTheLight

I definitely agree there are multiple variables that go into wanting children, but can you completely exclude selfishness? What is selfishness at its core? Could it be simply satisfying the desires of personal biology. Could it also be a mental construct? What if there is a constant message out there through media and advertising that coupling up and having children will bring happiness?

It just seems like in times where food and shelter were the biggest concerns, children brought security into the picture. The expense of having those children was almost nil compared with the burden today.

That doesn't event get into the different desires between a males and females biology.

The low birthrate in western countries is a combination of overlapping factors.

Birth Control. It is readily available so women don't have children unless they really want them.

Education. The more education a person receives, the more likely they will have children later in life or fewer kids. Women are entering college at higher rates than men. This leads to the third factor.

Professional Women. Men are no longer considered the sole breadwinners. Women are working professional jobs. These high powered careers often require delaying child rearing. Most professional women typically don't have kids until their 30s. This is why fertility clinics and the like are such booming business right now.

Cost of raising kids. It cost a lot of money to raise children these days. Unless you are the type to suck on the government teet, most people have smaller families due to the cost.