The reality of hypnotism and its link to abductions

Earlier it was stated that people "create" memories under hypnosis to "fill in blanks" in their memory. I tried to ask this question before, but was met resistance...

Q: What might be the probability that a "created memory" would actually match something in the real world and remain in context?

originally posted by: ChaoticOrder
I'm simply willing to acknowledge the possibility that what these people are reporting is based in some truth rather than assume it's all just their imagination and nothing they say has any relevance.

I certainly think as by-standers and lay-men that we can offer the benefit of the doubt but those claiming to be professionals should really be looking behind the experience at the experiencer and considering what may have contributed, environmentally, physiologically and psychologically, to create that particular experience. Once you have eliminated the possibles then the impossible, or rather improbable, can be addressed.

I am not entirely sure how motivated such practitioners, on the whole, are inclined towards helping people, and I should imagine also that the costs of tests and the such-like would be prohibitive to many...so I can see why this approach is seldom taken. I also suspect that some experiencers value the experiences and would not desire such "help" because they are happy with the way things are. I can relate to that, and I can understand how some practitioners would want to help people to that kind of state if they were troubled by their experiences...but I feel that this may be, in some cases be detrimental, or indeed, taken advantage of.

originally posted by: james1947
Earlier it was stated that people "create" memories under hypnosis to "fill in blanks" in their memory. I tried to ask this question before, but was met resistance...

Q: What might be the probability that a "created memory" would actually match something in the real world and remain in context?

I'm not sure that I understand your question and I think that it requires a more complicated and informed response than I am capable of giving...but I would have thought that much would depend upon the "created memory" and for what purpose it was created and I expect that much depends on the receptiveness of the person with the created memory.

I don't really get what you mean by "actually match something" etc...do you mean so that you would experience something like deja vu?

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

I haven't followed ufology at all deeply, it is more of a case of it's boundaries overlapping, and vice versa, into other subjects that I have an interest in, so it kind of follows me really. Admittedly I have an inclination to consider it a belief system, and as such I don't like to get involved too much, people often need whatever it is that they obtain from those beliefs, I don't think anyone should try and take that away without considering the consequences first.

I generally agree and think ufology is whatever people want it to be; it's like any human interest that can't exist without generating beliefs. People with darker psyches see darker elements and those with sunny dispositions see the opposite; science-based researchers see technology, Evangelicals see demons and so on. Yes, exploitation is endemic too. It's also comparable to a pearl and oyster with sightings being the grit around which layers of belief and interpretations are formed.

Have you read The Lure of the Edge by Brenda Denzler? Some of your comments suggest you'd find it an interesting read as she also examined the community through a lens of religious belief. It's a very engaging read.

Our unwillingness to embrace our subjectiveness is understandable given that it requires us to disentangle ourselves from our beliefs and the things that some hold dear.

So true! In the spirit of this thread topic, there are hardly any people to be found who report mental illness or even mild personality disorders. They all consider themselves straight, objective reporters with no motivations other than accuracy of accounts. In reality, people have sleep disorders and quirks which contrive/combine to cultivate subjective world views. Once again, I hasten to add that I am not dismissive of abductee accounts, but don't see why they should be taken more seriously than alternative explanations.

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout

I'm not sure that I understand your question and I think that it requires a more complicated and informed response than I am capable of giving...but I would have thought that much would depend upon the "created memory" and for what purpose it was created and I expect that much depends on the receptiveness of the person with the created memory.

I don't really get what you mean by "actually match something" etc...do you mean so that you would experience something like deja vu?

That's okay, I'm not sure I do either...

The question was prompted by a statement from another ATSer...

InhaleExhale said:
"What I have see much of on ATS is hypnosis as a means to remember traumatic things is what the issue is and cannot be done to a degree that is accurate and depicts what really happened as opposed to what the suggestible mind has created to fill in any blanks."

My question was:
"When the mind "creates" to "fill in blanks"; What do y'all think the probability of that "creation" being real is?"

I'm sorry, but, to me, that is a rather simple question..."When we 'make stuff up' to fill in a hole in our memory; what is the probability of the 'made up memory' having any correlation to the 'real world'?

a reply to: james1947

InhaleExhale said: "What I have see much of on ATS is hypnosis as a means to remember traumatic things is what the issue is and cannot be done to a degree that is accurate and depicts what really happened as opposed to what the suggestible mind has created to fill in any blanks." My question was: "When the mind "creates" to "fill in blanks"; What do y'all think the probability of that "creation" being real is?" I'm sorry, but, to me, that is a rather simple question..."When we 'make stuff up' to fill in a hole in our memory; what is the probability of the 'made up memory' having any correlation to the 'real world'?

already answered but you just don't like the answer without giving a specific hypnosis case.

So the answer is highly likely to not likely at all, depending on how much of an unbalance was created in ones mind from the traumatic experience and how one performs the hypnosis, what and how they guide the subject through their mind all factor in.

Why do you use quotation marks when you say this

"When the mind "creates" to "fill in blanks"

I said suggestible mind as that is what Hypnosis does to ones mind, make some who is susceptible to hypnosis very suggestible.

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: james1947

So the answer is highly likely to not likely at all, depending on how much of an unbalance was created in ones mind from the traumatic experience and how one performs the hypnosis, what and how they guide the subject through their mind all factor in.

so...never mind, good sir; SIGH! I'm trying to establish some sort of "baseline' here.
You make assumptions in your response that are not necessarily valid, thus virtually invalidating your response.

a reply to: james1947

so...never mind, good sir; SIGH! I'm trying to establish some sort of "baseline' here. You make assumptions in your response that are not necessarily valid

What assumptions am I making in what you quote,

Its an answer to the vague question you asked.

I cover everything from being highly likely/probable to not at all and explain some of the factors involved what would make it more or less probable.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
I generally agree and think ufology is whatever people want it to be; it's like any human interest that can't exist without generating beliefs. People with darker psyches see darker elements and those with sunny dispositions see the opposite; science-based researchers see technology, Evangelicals see demons and so on. Yes, exploitation is endemic too. It's also comparable to a pearl and oyster with sightings being the grit around which layers of belief and interpretations are formed.

Nice analogy! I think that there is also the titillation aspect to be considered, exploitation can't exist without a market and consumers to serve. People find the "weird" entertaining and diverting, even if just so they can have someone to look down upon or point and giggle at from behind their hand. Just look at how the middle-classes used to spend their leisure hours hanging out at asylums, getting cheap thrills from the poor and unfortunate. Very little has changed, it is just that some groups have gained protection from being used to titillate while others are considered fair game.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
Have you read The Lure of the Edge by Brenda Denzler? Some of your comments suggest you'd find it an interesting read as she also examined the community through a lens of religious belief. It's a very engaging read.

I shall keep an eye out for it, thanks.

originally posted by: Kandinsky
So true! In the spirit of this thread topic, there are hardly any people to be found who report mental illness or even mild personality disorders. They all consider themselves straight, objective reporters with no motivations other than accuracy of accounts. In reality, people have sleep disorders and quirks which contrive/combine to cultivate subjective world views. Once again, I hasten to add that I am not dismissive of abductee accounts, but don't see why they should be taken more seriously than alternative explanations.

I am not dismissive of abduction accounts either, or of any other form of experience that effects the individuals perception of reality, particularly having had my own experiences with psychosis. Before that I had no idea how profoundly our perception of reality can be distorted, although I had had viral illnesses and fevers that had resulted in hallucinations and had taken mind altering substances on a recreational basis in the past, there was no similarity in experience at all - psychosis is a whole other kettle of fish and it's potential causes myriad. I don't think that it gives me any insight into abduction experiences but I do appreciate better how time can be lost and how the totally irrational can appear to make sense, and seem to be made manifest as proof.

There are people all around the world who have experienced lost time and breaks with consensus reality, but as I think you and I may have discussed before, what those individuals report, and how those reports are received, is going to be strongly influenced by the culture. For me, my concern, it is that I had the tools I needed to recognise that there was a problem when it became a problem (only just mind), others aren't as fortunate as me and moreover, there is this whole industry feeding on certain narratives (and I don't think it is any coincidence that MK Ultra spent so much in time and resources studying schizophrenics) and passively or otherwise, who are discouraged by the "audience" and the pimps/agents from addressing and pursuing other reasons why they may be experiencing what they are experiencing. People want to be entertained, they want to be thrilled and lifted out of their ordinariness, they don't want to know that such and such thought he was abducted but it turns out that they were just suffering from sleep deprivation/stress/pollution/illness etc etc.

We're all a playing our parts.

originally posted by: james1947

originally posted by: KilgoreTrout

I'm not sure that I understand your question and I think that it requires a more complicated and informed response than I am capable of giving...but I would have thought that much would depend upon the "created memory" and for what purpose it was created and I expect that much depends on the receptiveness of the person with the created memory.

I don't really get what you mean by "actually match something" etc...do you mean so that you would experience something like deja vu?

That's okay, I'm not sure I do either...

The question was prompted by a statement from another ATSer...

InhaleExhale said:
"What I have see much of on ATS is hypnosis as a means to remember traumatic things is what the issue is and cannot be done to a degree that is accurate and depicts what really happened as opposed to what the suggestible mind has created to fill in any blanks."

My question was:
"When the mind "creates" to "fill in blanks"; What do y'all think the probability of that "creation" being real is?"

I'm sorry, but, to me, that is a rather simple question..."When we 'make stuff up' to fill in a hole in our memory; what is the probability of the 'made up memory' having any correlation to the 'real world'?

Okay, I think I get what you mean - though don't bite my head off if I've missed it completely - but I think we need to put it in some kind of context. For example, if we assume that someone is going to a hypnotist because they keep having vague flashes of memory of something happening that they don't recall. They will explain to the practitioner the symptoms they are having, their concerns and based on those prompts, the practitioner will lead the subject to the "memory". What the subject "remembers" may not have actually happened, it may be a construction and conflation of events processed through dreaming, and that the dream was powerful enough, or repeated often enough, to form a memory. This would be termed a false memory.

There have been some highly publicised instances of adults claiming they were abused as children after undergoing hypnosis and "remembering" suppressed memories that have later been proven to be impossible. There are very good reasons why those kinds of immersive hypnotic techniques are not considered as reliable "truth" finders. More cognitive-based techniques of a more mildly hypnotic nature can be utilised effectively to improve memory without activating the sub-conscious or whatever part of the brain is responsible for suspension of disbelief.

So, to get back to your question, I think that a "created" or imagined memory would usually be formed around some truth that ties it to reality, and there is also a potential, depending on the false memory, for it to be self-fulfilling in some cases but if something remembered as a memory actually happened then it can't be a false memory. If a false memory is remembered, and then it happened, then it would be my guess that it is either coincidental/synchronicity (in which case, on examination the memory and event are similar, not exact) or it was by design. There may be greyer regions to consider in between, but without specifics....

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: james1947

What assumptions am I making in what you quote,

1. that there is some sort of trauma.
2. that the hypnotist is "guiding" in any specific direction.

Its an answer to the vague question you asked.

I cover everything from being highly likely/probable to not at all and explain some of the factors involved what would make it more or less probable.

The question was not vague, although, it was intended to be generic.

The "span" of probabilities itself is mathematically improbable, and the way you put it, bordering on impossible (and I don't believe in impossible!).

I was trying to establish a base line for the probability of correlation of manufactured memory, and wanted to keep it generic. You seemed to want it to be associated with something specific.

Here is an example, though not brought up via hypnosis; I have this memory that, some 30 years ago, I was piloting a shuttle craft and landing it on a massive mothership. While my skills maneuvering the craft left much to be desired, I did manage to get it stopped with relatively little damage to either craft.

Applying my question to that memory; what do you think the probability of that memory being real is?

And, then another question, perhaps; How can One tell IF a memory is real? I went over this one with a psychologist back in the day.

a reply to: KilgoreTrout

Thank you.

I do try to not bite head off, but, sometimes frustration steps in...

You have given me something to think about, thank you.

a reply to: james1947

1. that there is some sort of trauma. 2. that the hypnotist is "guiding" in any specific direction.

You say they are assumptions when they are not, you may not know what I am talking about so you assume I am assuming.

I suggest you do as like to say others and research a little about what causes the human mind to block things out that require types of regression to help bring forth.

Trauma be it physical or psychological which in the cases of abductions if the persons were actually abducted then its both, if the person is suffering from a delusional episode then the so called "abduction" they think they had is just psychological trauma.

The poster KilgoreTrout gave a very simple example how and why a hypnotists can and will lead the subject.

They didn't give direct examples but mentioned how abused children that used hypnotherapy to recall the trauma had created false memories.

The question was not vague, although, it was intended to be generic.

Yes because you have something in mind, I mean you cannot something out of your mind to discuss anything else, your obsession is your own fault, trying to convince random internet users is just the most foolish thing a person could do if they claim what you claim.

The way you post the question is vague and the answer was given twice for the question you asked.

Sorry you don't like it, but with out context or any specifics the probability is like I said.

I was trying to establish a base line for the probability of correlation of manufactured memory, and wanted to keep it generic. You seemed to want it to be associated with something specific.

NO I keep asking you if you want a more specific answer then use a specific hypnosis case that can be discussed, however, I have no interest to do this with you.

Here is an example, though not brought up via hypnosis;

originally posted by: InhaleExhale
a reply to: james1947

Well, damn; I'm sorry I tried to increase my understanding of the Universe...next time I'll ask someone else, perhaps they will/can be a bit more forthcoming.

Yes because you have something in mind, I mean you cannot something out of your mind to discuss anything else, your obsession is your own fault, trying to convince random internet users is just the most foolish thing a person could do if they claim what you claim.

The way you post the question is vague and the answer was given twice for the question you asked.

Sorry you don't like it, but with out context or any specifics the probability is like I said.

Yes, I had something in mind; and I asked the question. You are assuming there is something more...there isn't!

I have no obsession, and it appears that your prejudice is showing.

And, just what is it that you think I "claim"? If you are talking about the Betty Hill event...then I submit you have no idea what it is that I'm claiming...BUT, that is not the issue here.

The question logically is not the least bit vague, however the response you gave shows a decided lack of fundamental logic. To begin with, probabilities don't work the way you seem to think they do...to put it another way; "created" memories cannot have a true correlation in the real world, IF by some chance a "created" memory does...it's not a created memory, but rather a real one. BUT, that's not the issue either...

NO I keep asking you if you want a more specific answer then use a specific hypnosis case that can be discussed, however, I have no interest to do this with you.

Good!!! I have no desire to discuss any specific case with you either, besides; the specific case we are referring to needs no discussion...not with the probabilities associated with the overall case and that wee scrap of paper! My theories on that are well proven!!!

Now, if all the same to you, I'll drop this question (as answered for you) and be on about my merry!

ETA:
I do however, have one last question:
you stated...

Here is an example, though not brought up via hypnosis;

You seemed to think it funny, so, I wanted to ask; Do you know the differences between real memories and "dream", or "created" memory?

Well this is interesting. A couple of days ago Vice did a segment titled "Treating Alien Abduction Victims with Hypnotherapy", and within the first minute they show a regression session where the guy says "He's telling me forget... forget... forget what you just saw. And I felt... I felt peaceful. The next thing I knew I woke up". The hypnotherapist asks a lot of leading questions and it's actually one of the worst sessions I've seen in terms of how it was conducted, and they present it in quite a humorous way which is understandable, it's pretty hard not to laugh at this stuff.

But just ask yourself, what are the chances the theory I presented in this thread happens to line up with an abduction memory recalled during regression? Look at the emotional response of the guy as he remembers what happened to him and try to sense whether he's faking it or not. Also ask yourself, if it's a repressed memory of sexual abuse why did he seem to remember it as an enjoyable experience and why would he forget the entire thing or be told to forget, is the theory that he was abused by a mesmerizing succubus who made him forget the event?

so why would aliens try to erase our memory of what happened in the first place...why would they care if we remembered what happened? Are they so far advanced and compassionate that they actually care about humans?

a reply to: saltlick

According to the two most popular narratives they want to hide the memories to conceal their overall master plans. One side believes they're like custodians who are here to nurture the human race towards peace and enlightenment. The other, much larger side, believes they are breeding out humans and replacing them with 'hybrids' and 'hubrids.'

There's a fairly eye-watering fork from the latter which includes sexual torture and the denigration of humans by a mixed collective of US military personnel in cahoots with greys, powerful reptilians and mantis-like entities. These are the crossovers between Satanic panics, evil social workers, deep-seated paranoia and OT Christian beliefs in demons pretending to be evil aliens. It's amongst the darkest of the darkest conspiracies.