It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

The reality of hypnotism and its link to abductions

page: 1
28
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join
share:
+8 more 
posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 03:11 AM
link   
First of all I want to briefly discuss the reality of hypnotism because I've noticed recently that a lot of people seem to believe it isn't real. It is a highly misunderstood topic and in order to really explain how a persons consciousness is altered by hypnotism would require a very long thread. Instead of doing that, I will just suggest watching Derren Brown and listening to his interviews. He was recently on the Joe Rogan podcast and when asked about this he explains how only certain types of suggestible people can be truly hypnotized and he is able to tell when a person is faking, which is why he uses extensive screening processes to weed out the less suggestible people.


I consider Derren Brown to be one of the top debunkers of nonsense of all time. He has made several shows detailing how hypnotism is often used by charlatans to mislead people. He has shown how faith healers use hypnotism and mesmerism to induce a certain state of consciousness in believers, he has shown how psychics use a lot of mentalist trickery, and lots of other great work to expose fraudsters. I understand for some people they wont believe it until they see it, to those people I would suggest you attend a live hypnotist show and volunteer yourself when the hypnotist asks for people willing to participate. It probably wont work if you're highly skeptical but you'll get a close up look at the process.

When you interact with a person who is truly hypnotized you will understand that they really believe what ever suggestion has been given to them. However, on some level they are aware of the truth, which is why it's still hard to convince someone to do something they really don't want to do using hypnosis. What Derren demonstrates in his latest Netflix special where he convinces a white nationalist guy to sacrifice his own life for an illegal immigrant wasn't hypnotism, it was more of a slow conditioning process designed to increase empathy levels and encourage heroism. Hypnotism is rapidly induced and usually doesn't last long, the methods used by the hypnotist temporarily alter the state of consciousness.

Skepticism is healthy, but it's dangerous to ignore the ways in which the human mind can be manipulated because it can leave us open to manipulation. A few years ago I read about a scam where old ladies were being hypnotized and convinced to give away their jewelery and cash, the criminals involved with these sorts of crimes would easily get away with it when people are unwilling to accept that the human mind is more insecure than they'd like to believe. Yes, it's hard to make someone do something they really don't want to do, but it's easier to convince someone they want to do something they don't want to do when they are in a trance state, word it the right way and they'll think it's a good idea.

For example "let go of your material stuff to be free" may be a suggestion used by these thieves. Derren has also shown how this effect is even easier to achieve when a person is already in a trance state, e.g. when a person is sleeping it's very easy to give them suggestions and bring them into a sleep-walking type of state where they are semi-conscious. He did this with one guy where he woke him during the night and took him to do crazy things like touch a live crocodile. He is told it's just a dream and when he wakes it will all just feel like a dream, it's a very sneaky way of giving a person suggestions without them really being aware of it, they might not even remember the "dream".


This is where the abduction phenomenon starts to seem a bit more plausible. When someone claims that aliens can alter their memories and cover up memories with so called "screen memories" it sounds very fantastic and outside the realm of what is believable. Researchers have often wondered why they would even leave any trace of the abduction memory if they were advanced enough to cover up memories. However they aren't really altering or erasing the memories at all, they are suppressing them using hypnotism, this would be especially easy for the abductors since the entire experience would already seem like a dream to begin with, and they probably have technology to make it easier.

All it takes is a reasonable understanding of psychology, and I'm sure their understanding is highly advanced if they're able to travel interstellar distances or if they are time travelers from the future. We know the memories are still there and can be accessed by hypnotic regression techniques. During altered states of consciousness a person will lower their psychological barriers to some extent and will have a deeper connection to their subconscious thought processes, allowing them to see through any veils or mental blocks which may have been imposed on them. Obviously leading the subject so they imagine events that didn't occur is a large issue but there are ways to avoid that.

I've shared this snippet from John E. Mack's book Abduction before, but it's also highly relevant here:

A final word needs to be said about the use of hypnosis in Ed's case. Before my first meeting with him, Ed had recalled a great deal about his teenage abduction. But his conscious memory before the regression tended to simplify the experience and, more significantly, to gloss the narrative in ways that were more syntonic with the self-image and desires of a young adolescent than what he recalled painfully during the hypnosis session would be. Many embarrassing details relating to powerlessness and loss of control were not available to him except under hypnosis. In particular, the happy outcome of pleasurable sexual intercourse with the cooperative, sexually active, female alien gave way to the forced, quite humiliating, taking of a sperm sample as the being watched approvingly. This second scenario, which is obviously more disturbing, is far more typical of male abduction experiences and, therefore more believable.

All this suggests that, at least in Ed's case, the information recalled painstakingly under hypnosis is more reliable than the consciously recalled story, which seems to have been unconsciously adjusted to be compatible with Ed's wishes and self-esteem.

Abduction, page 67


Assuming the abduction phenomenon is real, it seems quite clear they are choosing to abduct people primarily during the night time so that their activity can be masked as dreams. The memory of these dreams is often quite far from the reality of what actually happened, although the dreams still feel very vivid and not quite the same as other dreams. I realize that my argument about hypnotism being real isn't helped by talking about this even crazier stuff, but it's a topic I haven't really seen discussed before and it doesn't help us to assign godlike powers to these beings, they operate within the same laws of physics that we do, they don't have magic powers.
edit on 17/11/2018 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 03:24 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder




This may come off as poopy but I will watch these videos and any that appear to be related as I fall asleep Slightly tipsy.

But S&F for future talks.


Thank you for something fun to watch tonight!



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 03:24 AM
link   
Love Derren Brown, very clever fella with a genuine attitude and a desire to improve the lives of others.
Can't remember the title offhand but on one of his shows he created a very elaborate setup to convince a guy that it was the end of the world, and used that to get the guy to overcome his extreme apathy/laziness and find his self worth through bravery and service to others.
About as good as it gets!
ETA, in regards to OP, this clearly demonstrated to me that in the hands of a skilled practitioner, hypnotism and mental manipulation can be extremely effective and has tangible real world outcomes.
edit on 17-11-2018 by Osirisvset because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 03:58 AM
link   
Hypnotic suggestion explains how many people believe they were abducted by aliens, for sure.

Many others have claimed they were abducted by aliens, to try making money, fame, attention, from it.


Any BS story can sell, but especially when it's an alien bs fable!



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 03:58 AM
link   
I recently suggested this (hypnotism) as a possible reason for the way some people act when being interviewed after mass tragedy events - either to get them to say a certain story, get them to calm down so they can go on camera (and maybe they forget some things or act "spacey") or possibly to help them move on after the incident, like Will Smith showing up in MIB with the light flasher thingy - where human's can't process those huge things so they erase them from memory. I suggested this could be the cause for people making claims of crisis actors being used.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 04:00 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I think everyone is responsive to hypnosis at some level, but ultimately it depends on the individual's belief system. If the person has a very broad or incoherent range of beliefs, that allows more ports of entry for hypnotic suggestion. If the person has a more focused set of beliefs, then the port of entry is much narrower. There should be a trade-off between the two types: The more entry points there are for hypnotic suggestion, the more layers of suggestion are likely to be needed for deep trance induction. The narrower the individual's belief system (less entry points), the easier trance induction should be, once a good entry point is discovered.

I don't think hypnosis is necessarily a bad thing; its part of how we learn and interact with each other on a day-to-day basis, but it can be dangerous when the conscious practice falls into the wrong hands, like politicians, quacks, cult leaders, used car salesmen, etc.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 04:03 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

It struck me a few years ago that suggestibility could be a common factor in many encounter and abduction reports/claims. Various researchers have used questionnaires since the 1950s and I don't think suggestibility has been a question on any of them. With hindsight it would have been potentially enlightening to see stats and scales on the suggestibility of claimants going back to the 60s.

In terms of hypnosis, it's absolutely a thing! AFAIK it's not going to work on everyone because we're all suggestible to different degrees. I think Brown said he isn't prone to hypnosis at all and many aren't.

When it comes to abductee hypnosis I'm very, very dubious. Doc Simon from Betty and Barney was a neutral practitioner and John E Mack started out neutral as well. I'm less sure about Doc Sprinkle or Doc Schwartz and completely skeptical about Jacobs and Hopkins. There's also an unavoidable influence of the hypnotist and the interplay of memes and memories they share in client/hypnotist dynamic. That's why Hopkins/Jacobs only got horror stories and Mack/Sprinkle only got spiritual ones. Mack's epitomised the spirit of the Summer of Love and Jacobs' came straight from Orwell's 1984 crossed with Alien.

Let's work from your premise and agree that abductions were essentially real. It still leaves problems and keeps us at distance from strong explanations. For instance, if something can hack into our sense of self and impose screen memories, it can be anything it wants to be. People reported seeing our almond-eyed entities and yet there's no way to know if they were imprinted memories too. Am I being clear there? The agents behind the experiences could have been anything and God knows their limited messages were consistently deceptive and logically confounding.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 04:42 AM
link   
Simply compare what they claim now, to claims of earlier times....


Nobody ever claimed aliens had abducted them, over thousands of years...


But now, it seems to be claimed by someone, almost daily!!


Who thinks all the aliens waited, for thousands of years, and then popped up everywhere??


Sure, that explains it all!!





posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 04:47 AM
link   

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

That's why Hopkins/Jacobs only got horror stories and Mack/Sprinkle only got spiritual ones. Mack's epitomised the spirit of the Summer of Love and Jacobs' came straight from Orwell's 1984 crossed with Alien.

I agree, Mack was much more spiritual and that made him less effective at reaching scientific conclusions, however the reports from the abductees are more or less the same across the spectrum, you can see that just from the one snippet from Mack's book which I provide in the opening post. Using regression Ed uncovered a rather unpleasant series of events. As Mack explains in the book, it's also very common for the abductee to be shown apocalyptic imagery and warning about the future of the planet. He tries to play this off as the aliens simply trying to enlighten the abductees but fundamentally his patients are reporting the same thing under regression that Jacobs' patients describe under regression.


Let's work from your premise and agree that abductions were essentially real. It still leaves problems and keeps us at distance from strong explanations. For instance, if something can hack into our sense of self and impose screen memories, it can be anything it wants to be. People reported seeing our almond-eyed entities and yet there's no way to know if they were imprinted memories too.

I think they often do attempt to conceal their true appearance, often people who've been abducted have vague memories of animals with big eyes such as deers or owls and they may even have an irrational fear of these animals. But when they undergo hypnotic regression the true appearance of the beings becomes clear and it often causes a great deal of stress for the patient, you can hear the distress in their voice as they realize what they are looking at. The screen memories do make it more difficult to determine what is real and what isn't, that's why regression is useful for unlocking the suppressed memories.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 05:05 AM
link   
Nobody ever thought about any aliens from outer space, because Earth was created, and protected, so all life created for Earth could exist, always..

Sadly, it became a world gripped in fear, with aliens, and killer asteroids, etc.


We have now started to realize this fear was nothing but a massive-scale sham. Spewed out, over and over, with more and more lies being crafted.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 05:37 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder



As Mack explains in the book, it's also very common for the abductee to be shown apocalyptic imagery and warning about the future of the planet. He tries to play this off as the aliens simply trying to enlighten the abductees but fundamentally his patients are reporting the same thing under regression that Jacobs' patients describe under regression.


I kind of favour Mack over the Hopkins/Jacobs narratives. In Abduction he's not pushing a strong explanation in the way the other two went full barrel into hybrids, dystopias and Earth being conquered. I enjoyed the Mack book and found that I coudn't see eye to eye with his later work. He went on to take a very anti-science stance which seemed to show diminishing critical thinking.

You mention the apocalyptic visions and these also make me uncomfortable. They were thematic in channelers and appeared very early into the UFO era too. The early 'visions' and 'channeled messages' frequently encouraged the percipients to take their own lives which naturally provokes a reaction of disgust. When I then see similar vignettes in abduction narratives it makes me pause. Are they arising from the same sources? If so, it's reasonable to completely distrust both the messages and the messengers. Unfortunately it appears those most susceptible could never have sovereignty of their own consciousness to question, reject or fight against the uninvited perpetrators.




I think they often do attempt to conceal their true appearance, often people who've been abducted have vague memories of animals with big eyes such as deers or owls and they may even have an irrational fear of these animals. But when they undergo hypnotic regression the true appearance of the beings becomes clear and it often causes a great deal of stress for the patient, you can hear the distress in their voice as they realize what they are looking at.


At what point do we agree that one image is more veridical than others? It's apparent that something is interacting with consciousness and is, figuratively speaking, hacking into the root systems and firmware. If we can contemplate such a possibility, it then raises questions of non-locality. In that context, a dominant consciousness is imposing its (or theirs if there are many) will on a weaker (suggestibility) human one and not necessarily from a physical contact. The intruding entity could be somewhere else entirely and thus the appearance of white rooms, aliens and spacecraft would be one more layer of crafty deception.

It's hard to discuss these speculations without becoming obscure! I think there are so many layers of obfuscation in the abductee genre that it's nearly impossible to tease out where the truth or facts are. Also fwiw, I'm very much on the fence with much of it and just speculating and exploring ideas with you.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 06:34 AM
link   
a reply to: Kandinsky


When I then see similar vignettes in abduction narratives it makes me pause. Are they arising from the same sources?

Both Mack and Jacobs' provide several accounts where their patients recalled being shown images of a barren Earth void of life, and are told we will destroy the Earth if we don't change our ways. Mack also mentions how common this is in his book Abduction. Jacobs' book The Threat provides the transcript from multiple regression sessions where the patients report the same thing.


The forced taking of sperm for some sort of poorly understood inter-species breeding program is characteristic of male abductions. Information about ecological disaster with powerful apocalyptic imagery is also commonly transmitted by the aliens to human subjects.

~ Abduction, page 66



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 08:08 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Love the methods of Derren Brown, but one must remember, its about entertainment and i have noticed that it is mostly scripted,

These things do work, but only after years and years of suggestion, not from a couple of sentences.

-Still a good show-



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 08:36 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Yes I've read a stack of stuff about abductees and listened to interviews with researchers and abductees. I'm fairly well-versed on the subject.


I think you're all-in on the physicality of these reports with actual entities travelling in spaceships. That isn't a criticism rather than an observation and you're in line with the popular Hopkins/Jacobs model of imminent domination by these aliens.

Personally, I don't see any reason to stop at the point of aliens bringing screen memories. Like I mentioned, if there's a *they,* I don't see why the imagery beyond the 'screen memories' should be considered as reliable. Sure, they have the appearance of certain themes and features, but they could also be false memories. Vallee's last Magonia cover was supposed to portray the many faces of 'the phenomena.'

Joshua Cutchin has been looking at faery folklore and highlighted very similar patterns to abductee literature. He's not the first, but he's the latest and most in-depth. Missing time, white rooms, themes of fertility, ruthlessness etc. You won't have seen them, I used to write a lot of UFO threads. Some included humanoid encounters with the visitors showing interest in the environment and muttering warnings of destruction.

My heavy-handed and unoriginal point is it appears that something has been intruding on human experience for several centuries. It's from fairyland, 'beyond the veil' or it's from Venus and Clarion. It's an alien from nowhere or it's from '163 000 light miles away.' Perhaps you're totally right and it's all just a smokescreen for malevolent aliens with communist tendencies. Personally I wouldn't begin to trust anything with a history of deception. Relying on the recollections of people who've proven susceptible to mind games is also problematic.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 08:38 AM
link   
a reply to: solve

It certainly can work with a few sentences if the person is suggestible enough. There are many methods used to achieve a snap induction, Derren discusses in the Rogan podcast how he developed some of these tactics and how came to the realization that a person can be almost instantly hypnotized. He isn't going to outright lie about what he does and how he does it, and if you believe he is lying then you're just in denial.


In early hypnotic literature a hypnosis induction was a gradual, drawn-out process. Methods were designed to relax the hypnotic subject into a state of inner focus (during which their imagination would come to the forefront) and the hypnotist would be better able to influence them and help them effect changes at the subconscious level.[10]

These are still used, notably in hypnotherapy, where the gradual relaxation of a client may be preferred over faster inductions. Generally, a hypnotherapist will use the induction they find most appropriate and effective for each individual client. However, through development of the modern Western understanding of hypnosis, newer and faster methods have been formed. Modern alternatives to the drawn-out muscle relaxation methods include the Elman Induction, introduced by Dave Elman,[11] which involves having the subject imagine that their eyes are too relaxed to open, so that the harder that they try to open them, the harder it becomes to open them (otherwise known as a double-bind); followed by an arm-drop deepener; and lastly, to have the subject visualize clouds and numbers within those clouds, as they blow away (each number that blows away increases the effect of the trance) until the subject is too tired to think of any more numbers. This process takes several minutes, but has been known to be effective enough to prepare patients for certain types of surgery. However, there are even faster instant hypnosis inductions (such as 'snap' inductions) which employ the principles of shock and surprise. A shock to the nervous system of the subject causes their conscious mind to be temporarily disengaged. During this brief window of distraction the hypnotist quickly intervenes, allowing the subject to enter the state of intense, hyper imagination and inner focus.

Hypnotic induction - Wikipedia

edit on 17/11/2018 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 08:47 AM
link   

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I think you're all-in on the physicality of these reports with actual entities travelling in spaceships. That isn't a criticism rather than an observation and you're in line with the popular Hopkins/Jacobs model of imminent domination by these aliens.

I haen't stated I think we're facing an imminent invasion, I don't know what their goal is and I don't necessarily think they are "evil", they always return people relatively unharmed and seem to care about the planet. I actually think it's more likely they are humans from the future using warp drives to bend space-time rather than aliens who have traveled light years just to spy on us.

I'm going on the facts, not trying to reach my own preconceived conclusion. The patients of Mack and Jacobs both report exactly the same thing, they just have different interpretations of what their testimony means because one would rather view them in a positive light and the other prefers to view them in a negative light. The truth is probably closer to the middle of those.

An excerpt from Jacobs' book The Threat:

I approach abductees individually in search of some new and perhaps revealing information about the phenomenon, although nearly all contribute confirmatory information. For example, in over 700 abduction investigations I have conducted using hypnosis, I have been told of egg-taking procedures almost 150 times, physical examinations about 400 times, Mindscan (staring) procedures about 375 times, and baby and toddler contact 180 times.


Then when you read through books from other researchers like Mack you see the exact same trend in the things his patients reported despite Mack having a different approach and different interpretation. I cannot really help but see this as more than a coincidence, my analytical mind tells me there is something to the claims being made by these people despite it sounding so crazy.
edit on 17/11/2018 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 09:02 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Fair enough man, Hopkins and Jacobs were totally in the 'imminent invasion' camp. Jacobs has upped his game into a narrative of 'hubrids' and apparently believes we're being assimilated by malevolent 1984-style alien overlords. Both men said they 'no longer have the luxury of disbelief' which placed them in the dodgy category.



I'm going on the facts, not trying to reach my own preconceived conclusion.


Neither of us are going off facts really. We're speculating based on the reported recollections of people under hypnotic regression and researchers who've interpreted the results. Anyway cheers for the convo and have a nice day.


Oh yeah I'd like to leave a great link for you and anyone reading the thread - johnemackinstitute.org...

The BBC show is great and the interviews from the 1990s are worth listening to. Those from the 2000s are when Mack had fully invested himself in the transcendental interpretation of abductees and experiencers. They're enjoyable, but I twitch and flinch to hear an academic mocking the values of science!



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 09:06 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Thought this was an interesting video that deserved a place on your thread - he also mentions actually trying to steer the subjects off course to test the veracity of their claims.





Always loved Darren"s earlier work, this one's a classic.



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 09:14 AM
link   

originally posted by: Kandinsky
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

Fair enough man, Hopkins and Jacobs were totally in the 'imminent invasion' camp. Jacobs has upped his game into a narrative of 'hubrids' and apparently believes we're being assimilated by malevolent 1984-style alien overlords. Both men said they 'no longer have the luxury of disbelief' which placed them in the dodgy category.

Jacobs has held the position they are a threat and want to merge alien hybrids with society for decades now, that's what he basically covers in his 1999 book The Threat. I agree though the guys pushing more extreme narratives tend to be less believable, which is why I rely mostly on the regression transcripts and what the patients say rather than the conclusions of one particular researcher.


The BBC show is great and the interviews from the 1990s are worth listening to. Those from the 2000s are when Mack had fully invested himself in the transcendental interpretation of abductees and experiencers.

There was actually a good panel discussion about aliens where Mack and Jacobs were on the panel, was interesting to see them debate the different interpretations and how they justify their position. Can't remember the source now, if I'm able to find it I'll post a link.
edit on 17/11/2018 by ChaoticOrder because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 17 2018 @ 10:58 AM
link   
a reply to: ChaoticOrder

I suggest reading the book mind control by dr lung, it's a book I read many years ago but I found it to be quite the useful read and still have a copy today.



new topics

top topics



 
28
<<   2  3  4 >>

log in

join