So What REALLY Happened???

Many of us will recall the story of Otto Warmbier, the 21/22 year old college student who was captured and imprisoned by North Korea while vacationing there. Sentenced to 15 years hard labor for allegedly attempting to steal a NK propaganda poster, Warbier was in the news quite a bit in 2017. Shortly after taking office, the Trump administration was successful in gaining his release after 17 months detainment. Then the questions began. Warmbier was in a coma, a "persistent vegatative state" US doctors said. NK alleged Warmbier had fallen ill due to botulism. The US said, at least initially, that he'd been beaten and tortured. So what REALLY happened to Otto Warmbier?

Well, the (known) facts appear to be these:
- Warmbier elected to go on a guided tour of NK with a Chinese tour group known as Young Pioneer Tours.

- Warmbier was partying with other members of the group at their hotel the night of the incident, which just happened to be New Years Eve.

- At some point in the early hours of Jan 1 Warmbier disappears for approximately 2 hours

- At approximately 1:27am Warmbier is photographed by CCTV surveillance cameras removing a NK propaganda poster from the wall of an Employees Only space located on the 2nd floor of their hotel.

- The next day Warbier is taken into custody at the Pyonyang airport by NK officials as he is ready to leave the country to return to Hong Kong with his tour group.

- Warmbier's whereabouts are unknown for nearly 4 weeks when NK finally makes a public statement he has been arrested for a "hostile act against the state".

- At the end of February 2016 NK holds a press conference where Warbier reads a likely coerced confession admitting to a variety of crimes.

- Two weeks later Warmbier is tried, convicted and sentenced to 15 years hard labor in a show trial in Pyongyang.

Okay, so this much (so far) is pretty common knowledge, but from here things start to get very murky and sinister indeed...and not in ways you might expect either.

Throughout the 2+ months Warmbier has been in custody he has almost certainly been subjected to grueling daily interrogations, but he hasn't been too brutally physically tortured because he still has to appear on TV (where physically anyway he appears to be in relatively good health). Little is heard from Warmbier until 15 months later when he is released in a coma.

Little is heard from the Warmbier family until shortly before his release when the father appeals to Trump to apply pressure to NK to free him. As it turns out, the Obama administration had encouraged them to remain silent so as not to anger North Korean officials. (okay, different diplomacy tactics here, but no clear conspiracy yet).

Warmbier is released (in a coma) and flown back to the US amid much fanfare. The parents go public with stories of torture, scars, mangled teeth and call for justice. The Trump administration (perhaps foolishly) plays along, likely to keep the heat on NK for a variety of reasons. Soon afterwards Warmbier dies. The stories of physical torture get even louder. Eventually, a coroner in OH goes pulic and refutes the torture story saying there were no signs of physical abuse.

Hmmmmm....

---END PART 1---

CINCINNATI -- A coroner said Wednesday her office could not determine what led to the fatal brain damage of a young Ohio man detained in North Korea for more than a year.

While the parents of 22-year-old Otto Warmbier and President Trump have accused the North Korean government of torturing him, Dr. Lakshmi Sammarco said evidence has led to no "scientific facts" to solve Warmbier's mysterious death.

"We don't know what happened to him, and this is the bottom line," she said.
A coroner's report dated Sept. 11 shows the cause of death for the University of Virginia student as complications from brain-damaging oxygen deprivation through "an unknown insult more than a year prior to death." The medical term for his condition was called "chronic anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy." The manner of death was listed as "undetermined."

Did his torturers gave him a last treatment before he was released? For the "good old times" and as a last lash out on him before they can´t anymore and the oxygen deprivation wen´t too far?

Just speculation of course.

--- PART 2 ---

Already something is not adding up here, but for now we'll just chalk it up to loving parents and shattered hopes.

The rest of the official story basically goes like this; the torture story is never officially retracted by the administration, but it becomes generally accepted that Warmbier was likely not tortured, but something happened. Warmbier is laid to rest amidst televised vigils in in remembrance. And the case is closed. On to another news cycle, right?

Well, hang on a second; now we've gone just below the surface of the water and are staring at the full expanse of the iceberg.

In July of this year (2018) a journalist by the name of Clark writes a well sourced article for GQ magazine wherein he reveals some stunning developments.

It should come as no surprise there was a lot more (a whole lot more) going on behind the scenes with the Warmbier case. It turns out, whatever happened to Warmbier took place almost immediately after his conviction, possibly even the same day. Warmbier never made it to that hard labor camp, he went straight to the hospital in a coma! (WOW!!, right?)

And it gets even stranger

--- END PART 2 ---

a reply to: CharlesT

Restricting breathing and water boarding are common enhanced interrogation techniques. Also, some "stress positions" can lead to restricted breathing/oxygen deprivation (handcuffing someone over a ceiling water pipe while you let dogs bark/nip at them, for example. The anxiety coupled with the position can lead to the brain/body not getting enough oxygen) - or so I've "heard."

Anyway, the above are probably mundane and tame compared to what the North Koreans did to the kid.

Sad but not surprising.

However, this raises some shady considerations... NK, although brutal and very strict, probably wouldn't have done even the enhanced interrogation stuff above unless they had a real concern about this kid. Sentenced to hard labor, sure, but interrogations that get to this level only get there if you really think there is info to be gained.

I have some experience with this.

What info did they think he had and why?

What was he doing during that 2 hour absence?

Information and prohibited items are often passed in NK attached to or hidden in other items. Was there something else on that "poster?" Or, was the "poster," something else?

Too little info and too much ambiguity to ever know for sure with what we officially know, but I think there is more to this kid and the incident.

a reply to: CharlesT

While it's still very likely his condition was caused by the North Koreans, I'm going to go ahead and play Devil's Advocate. It's very possible upon hearing his sentence Warmbier went ahead an tried to hang himself. The NKs knowing it would be very bad for them to have a dead American on their hands went ahead and resuscitated him but the damage had already been done. So they then spend the next 15 months keeping him alive.

a reply to: 35Foxtrot

deprivation through "an unknown insult more than a year prior to death."
"chronic anoxic/ischemic encephalopathy."

Does this indicate physical trauma of unknown origin to the brain or can trauma somewhere else such as strangling result in this diagnosis?

--- PART 3 ---

When the initial Obama admin. negotiations for Warmbier's release failed to produce any results several 'back channel' negotiations began. These back channel negotiations would ultimately confirm that Warmbier was not beaten, and they would also bear out another inconvenient truth...no American prisoner in NK has ever been tortured in any way (other than possibly mentally). Not one.

Incidentally, Warmbier's passing was not actually as a direct result of his condition. He died after his parents effectively "pulled the plug" (i.e. removed his feeding tube). This is not something widely understood.

It was found that Warmbier had been given remarkably good care considering the backwards system in NK. NK had a serious liability problem on their hands, and they knew it. If Warmbier died on their watch it would have potentially tragic consequences on their regime and their future. Because, after all, Warmbier was an American, and no American since the Korean conflict had died while in NK custody.

Additionally, and even more shockingly, Warmbier's detention up to the point of his trial had likely been in a guest house or hotel like setting. It wasn't a country club, but it wasn't a gulag either.

So what REALLY happened to Warmbier then???

I'm not 100% sure the North Koreans are even responsible for what happened to him. Here's why:

1. Warmbier was cut off from all outside communications prior to his trail. He was under the strict supervision of high NK officals.

2. When Warmbier was sentenced it was only a matter of time before he'd be able to talk...to someone. And, apparently, whatever he had to say could never see the light of day. Up to this point NK had 100% control over him. Once outside of this vacuum of information he would have much more latitude to interact with people.

The plot thickens!

So, who exactly were these Chinese tour operators, and what did they do besides give tours of NK? And who where their customers, and what were they really doing in NK?

Warmbier was likely interrogated not so much about his own actions in the hotel that night, but rather the actions of another person, or persons. Was there a foreign agent among them, a spy? Were the tour operators themselves gathering intelligence for someone?

Sure sounds to me like Warmbier got caught up in something he had no knowledge of, but that the North Koreans were onto. They may have initially thought he was part of it, but ultimately realized he wasn't their guy. To figure that out they probably would have had to reveal information to him that he might have otherwise not known. Did Warmbier then become a liability to some other government based on what he knew?

Don't you find it interesting that Warbier was alive, but conveniently couldn't talk? Someone made sure of that.

The big question now is...who?

BTW...here is a reprint of the GQ article (reference above). It's got a little political spin to it, but otherwise stunning info:

GQ - Warmbier story

--- END PART 3 ---

a reply to: 35Foxtrot

Too little info and too much ambiguity to ever know for sure

The ambiguity speaks for itself...you can't tell your friends without telling your enemies...

Warmbier was second-highest ranking student in his class. He would go on to enroll at the University of Virginia and did a foreign exchange at the London School of Economics.

originally posted by: Xcalibur254
a reply to: CharlesT

While it's still very likely his condition was caused by the North Koreans, I'm going to go ahead and play Devil's Advocate. It's very possible upon hearing his sentence Warmbier went ahead an tried to hang himself. The NKs knowing it would be very bad for them to have a dead American on their hands went ahead and resuscitated him but the damage had already been done. So they then spend the next 15 months keeping him alive.

That is what I think happened. He tried to hang himself but survived with irreparable brain damage. NKs tries to keep him alive but don't have the skills or tech.

He also very well may have been a young spy... pretty sure a lot of these cases with supposedly innocent college kids or travelers are cover ups for spy ops.

a reply to: Xcalibur254

One of the first things the US doctors looked for after they found no physical trauma was for trauma to the trachea. They found none. This was a very likely possibility given the fact that at least two Americans who had been released from NK prisons later committed suicide. So, this was something they were actively looking for in great detail.

Here's the interesting part about this whole story...

Whatever happened to Warmbier happened only hours after his trial. Think about that for a minute.

Why would NK attempt to kill him if they wanted to use him as a bargaining chip????

The reality is, this is EXACTLY why American prisoners in NK are treated FAR better than any other. It's almost as if they are in protective custody. They don't WANT anything to happen to them. The fact that something did happen to Warmbier is where the question lies.

The officials responsible for holding him after his conviction were demoted, have gone missing and are likely dead now. Even more interesting still, but further evidence NK didn't want any harm to come to Warmbier.

(queue the sinister music here...it's warranted). Somethin' ain't right with this, not right at ALL!!

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

I will go wild here since this is ATS. The man who returned to the US was simply not Otto Warmbier. He probably died shortly after his last time on NK television...

The man who returned, couldn't speak, his teeth were different, brain dead yet no sign of physical trauma. The parents had been paid off and since that was a stranger there was no problem for them to pull the plug...

The Obama admin knew about Otto's death but didn't want an open conflict with NK hence didn't say anything to the public. Trump however saw an opportunity. Smooth this out like they did and in exchange NK has to sit down to the table about the denuclearization...

Um stop replying and stop keeping us readers hanging

Jokes


Brilliantly written.

This is all news to me so its like a mystery with where you are going and so well written that I cannot wait for the proceeding parts.

a reply to: Edumakated

It is indeed possible that it was Warmbier himself who was the spy. Look at some of his affiliations.

It could well be that they couldn't get to him to silence him until after he was let out of the vacuum. They likely didn't know where he was, and I'm sure the North Koreans did that intentionally.

a reply to: InhaleExhale

The next part will be about some of the curious actions of the parents throughout all of this. However, I have to go for now, but I will return later with some updates.

Enjoy.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

But would they be able to detect something like that after over a year? I'm honestly curious. I have no idea if a damaged trachea could heal to the point where the previous injury is undetectable.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

You should write a movie script for this.
I would totally watch it.

You have to make sure that the ending is something like:

Turns out he got drunk and hit his head on a table. He wandered to the wrong area of the hotel and was
having delusions and ripped a poster. It went all downhill from there, but turns out he was just a dumb drunk
kid at the wrong place at the wrong time.

Great post!

a reply to: Xcalibur254

Yes, scar tissue.

a reply to: Flyingclaydisk

Fascinating read.