To answer this question, I'd ask that you suspend reality for a few moments and imagine that you were somehow raised in a very remote area of Africa by chimpanzees. This place is so remote in fact, that you never come into contact with another human being...just chimpanzees.

That being the case, what religion would you be? What god(s) would you praise? What rules/commandments would you follow? Whatever your religion of preference is now, would you somehow, someway, find your way back to it?

I'd love to hear a response or two from the devout believers on this board. I'm not trying to attack or make any judgements (yet, lol), but I've always been curious as to how a believer would answer this question.

Thanks!

fixx

ok, me tarzan you jane...

I would worship bananas if I was in that situation.

I think you need to state some assumptions on this first.

Are you assuming:

1.) You would be able to communicate with the chimps?
2.) That chimps communicate about spiritual matters?
3.) That chimps have established a chimp-god?
4.) That you would think like a chimp? or a human?

Can you nail these down a little better to where we have an envelope in which to discuss?

The only assumptions I would make would be based on what I felt to be reasonably possible or probable if something like this really could happen. That being said, I will try to answer your question.

Assumptions:

1.) You would communicate with the chimps just as chips communicate with eachother (ie. very basic ability to communicate).

2.) I don't belive chimps can communicate about spiritual matters.

3.) I don't know if chimps have a chimp god, but my guess is that they do not.

4.) You would have the brain of a human raised by chimps. Whether that makes you think like a chimp or a human, I'll leave that up to you to theorize.

fixx

Okay, then I believe:

You would have no religion. Religion is an organized movement based on some "faith-based" belief. I don't believe one monkey-boy can get "organized". So, no religion. UNLESS, you are a very manipulative monkey-boy and can organize all the chimps into following your edicts. This would be behavioural edicts...as chimps have no free-moral-agency, so you would have to control them by slapping their pee-pees when they didn't follow your rules.

You would have the free-moral-agency of a human, but limited reasoning due to your monkey-boy status. So, you could still wonder where you came from, if you are alone, if something bigger made you, etc. And you could still conceive of a higher power of some type. And the sky is the limit on what you could think up. Kitty might be right...it could be a banana - named Fred.

Commandments/rules would have to be self-established (see religious comments above). And you might, in fact, make you some rules (like don't pee on the banana tree and stuff like that).

And the last part of your query is a little ambiguous. Finding my way back to what **I** believe now? Is that what you are asking? I don't know.

The question becomes (for me at least) would God make Himself manifest to the little monkey-boy so that the monkey-boy could have a foundation. I don't know.

I agree, you wouldn't have a religion, but i have no doubt that you would be spiritual in some way. All that is required to be spiritual is the awareness that there is something grand out there, something greater than yourself. That's what I think, anyway.

well, i think that the subject would be more human than humans are willing to admit, because he wouldnt have any of the limits imposed upon him, nor would he have reason to feel shame. so basically, we would observe a tendency to keep at the head of the group, a bullheaded possessiveness towards desirable objects such as a mate, a dwelling, or food, and an eagerness to settle disputes by throwing # at his fellow primates.
that is, if he lives long enough to gain the unwavering loyalty of the group, by demonstrating his intelligence, as opposed to mere strength, as he would be smashed to little more than a bloody pulp by an angry chimp.

The question becomes (for me at least) would God make Himself manifest to the little monkey-boy so that the monkey-boy could have a foundation.

Valhall

Precisely what I am getting at. Does god find you or do you find god? Is finding god solely dependant upon the input received from other human beings? If so, what does that say about the notion of god to begin with? Or religion for that matter? If god finds you, then why does he/she/it choose to only find some of us and not others? Without other human input, who or what really is god? Who is to make the judgement whether or not a banana is an acceptable god? Does it matter?

-----------------------------

Darkhowling

Excellent point with respect to the human propensity to be spiritual. My question to you would be, does this spirituality arise from something innate in our "inner-selves" or does it arise out of a lack of understanding about our environment? Do we tend to deify that which we don't fully understand so that we may attempt to define it through our own means (ie. religion)?

Again, not looking to set anyone up, just trying to explore my own ideas with input from someone other than myself.

fixx

Both, i think. Good question. As intelligent beings, I believe we have innate desire to understand that which is beyond our grasp. However, if there are things we do not understand, someone else must have made it. AND it must be true that this mysterious being is greater than we. SInce we want to learn so badly, we seek out this entity to learn from it. Thus is born a faith in something greater than ourselves.

And sometimes I think I was raised by chimps

So this is easy for me to answer..I would probably believe somewhat like I believe today. Of course I wouldn't follow any religion, because in the jungle, without other humans, there really isn't one. Unless I invented one of my own. I've always thought that animals hold a great deal of spiritualism and thus it would most likely rub off on me and add to what I was already born knowing within. That there is a higher power that made such wonderous creatures, that I would no doubt come in contact with on a daily basis and that there is someone or something watching over and protecting me and my family of chimps.
You know, I think you would almost be more spiritual raised in an atmosphere like that, then the one we live today. There wouldn't be a ton of different opinions, religions and views in that world that would confuse you and ultimately force you into believing or not believing. It would be one knowing, very pure, very innocent. And nothing could take it away or darken it.

OK ya'll, I'm moving to jungle now and forcing some chimp family to adopt me in.

My impression is that while religion is more of a structured social means of representing a system of belief, the belief itself is innate. Being raised by chimps
would not change the idea that nature in and of itself can be understood from the context of a whole.

As a result a human in such a situation would develop values of his or her own. In which case to such a person the earth for instance (as an example) from which food is derived, would take upon the awareness of a person a life of its own.

Magestica & Darkhowling

Thanks for the responses. You both have made reference to something greater, a higher power, a creator...the originator. I'm wondering, who or what created the creator? How did the originator come to be? I know this is something we can't answer, but it does raise an interesting question. Any thoughts on this?

fixx

Well, lets think about this a bit. Would a chimp or ape even be able to concieve the idea(s) of a Higher Being; a G-d, so to speak?

Your assuming here that we have either the mentality of chimps/apes or your giving undo credit to chimps and apes for even being able to concieve the idea period?!

regards
seekerof

read it again, I think you have the idea wrong

No, I didn't, per se'. If you were raised by apes or chimps.......I'm asking if you would even be able to reason or concieve the idea of a G-d or religion, in the first place. These things are taught or talked about. Chimps and apes do not concieve of this so how could you?

regards
seekerof

[Edited on 5-7-2003 by Seekerof]

When children are raised by wild animals(of which there are admittedly very few reports) they often prtray certain human characteristics that make them stand out in behavior from their "family." These include attachement, defensiveness, and unthwartable curiosity. It doesn't matter if the animals themselves are usually solitary creatures;the human children are right by their"parent's" side. We need someone to take care of us. Perhaps we would grow up thinking a chmp that raised us was God, or some divine entity, but it is certain in my mind that we would have something we worshipped. Perhaps simply staring at the stars at night and feeling moved at the grandeur of it all would drive us to find some explanation. But the human mind IS more advanced than the chimp, so we wouldn't be limited to what we saw. We have imagination, and that's our greatest gift, I think. That's what allows us to believe in something greater than ourself.

Originally posted by darkhowling
When children are raised by wild animals(of which there are admittedly very few reports) they often prtray certain human characteristics that make them stand out in behavior from their "family." These include attachement, defensiveness, and unthwartable curiosity. It doesn't matter if the animals themselves are usually solitary creatures;the human children are right by their"parent's" side. We need someone to take care of us. Perhaps we would grow up thinking a chmp that raised us was God, or some divine entity, but it is certain in my mind that we would have something we worshipped. Perhaps simply staring at the stars at night and feeling moved at the grandeur of it all would drive us to find some explanation. But the human mind IS more advanced than the chimp, so we wouldn't be limited to what we saw. We have imagination, and that's our greatest gift, I think. That's what allows us to believe in something greater than ourself.

Well said darkhowling. But bear in mind also, in the case of being raised by chimps/apes, having no outside contact, the one being raised, even with human emotions and thought, inherent to 'human nature', will, over time, lose 'touch' with those things. To what degree, one cannot concieve, but be assured that the one being raised will also take on the characteristics and, somewhat, the 'subdued' mental capacities of said parents and the environment one is raised in. This is not a 'Tarzan' equation here, per se'.

A child raised in the 'wilds' of anywhere and raised by said chimps/apes, will lose touch with his or her own mental 'reasonings' and inherit those of the parents and the group. Pesonally, you'll be to busy picking bugs and such of another ape (grooming) and foraging, etc. and will 'lose' touch with even having the ability to think or conceive of G-d or religion. This is called 'parental conditioning'. And remember, your parental conditioning is dependent upon the group and your chimp/ape 'parents'. A child being raised in the wild, by chimps/apes, would not have the opportunity to concieve let alone fathom religion or G-d.

regards
seekerof

...Perhaps we would grow up thinking a chmp that raised us was God...

Excellent reasoning. I actually agree on the level that You wouldn't comprehend a Being necessarily. I wasn't paying enough attention to the words, too much of the intention was lost in my translation. But we would know somewhere within us that something is bigger than us. And we would want to know what that was. We would at least seek some sort of explanation as to why some things happened, like the sun rising and setting, and the weather.
Now, I'm assuming that this person who grew up with the chimps is actually GROWN UP, not a child who has regressed to their more feral instincts. This adult would most likely have the mentality of a child. If i recall correctly, the few children who were recovered from nature had to undergo heavy tutoring, and never fully regained their speech abilities, but their thought processes were simply less mature than they should have been. Therefore, we can postulate that while this person would be incapable of making any real leaps of faith, they could easily believe that they are affected by something greater. The possibility would be there, but as in Faith now, it is up to them to grasp it. (breaking all laws of debate) And I just have a feeling that they would.

Originally posted by kitty
ok, me tarzan you jane...

I would worship bananas if I was in that situation.

I think I'd go with the Banana Tree... the source of the fruit of life .

Jane goodall and Bush would be our gods, And thier son Tony blair.
Deep