Did America Steal Mexican Land?

Maybe.. But who did Mexico steal it from?

a reply to: notsure1

From the Commanche, Kiowa, Pueblo, Zuni, Navajo, Pima, Apache and a hundred other tribes.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: notsure1

From the Commanche, Kiowa, Pueblo, Zuni, Navajo, Pima, Apache and a hundred other tribes.

Yep and who did they steal it from? Not trying to be a smart ass

a reply to: notsure1

Point taken. Land by conquest is the accepted way of defining territory up until very recently and those are in contention.

originally posted by: 727Sky

originally posted by: Fallingdown
a reply to: 727Sky

Mexico would probably be known as Florida grande. It would be a state swimming in cash .

Yep and the Panama canal would actually be a border we could defend..after we captured Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, et al.. I have been to all those countries many times and IMO they would be 10,000 percent better off if way back when TPTB in America had a different mind set. But alas that is not the way it turned out..

“Emancipation through annexation”

It’s even has a nice ring to it .

a reply to: Asktheanimals
Lands basically just belong to those who are capable of taking it and defending it. It really all there is to it, everything else is just veneer, all the politics, all the talking, all the explaining, all of it is basically just useless and just there for entertainment.

The Mexicans took it from the native tribes, and they were fighting and pillaging and killing each other long long before the white man came, etc, etc. It was the same way in Europe since imperial Rome, and long long before when it was all just various tribes all across Europe, and likely will be the same in the future, now a days. Or a hundred thousand years in the future.

It is not only the way of human nature, it is plain and simply, nature. Lets just say that if aliens land tomorrow. Well, you know what would happen. Round up the humans to certain spots. etc, etc. Round and round we go on this spinning ball.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

Actually the Spaniards, disease, inquisition, a few civil wars...then the Mexican newly formed government dealt with local populations.

The Mexican government (1st one) could not control the northern territories and Texas soon was in revolt. California territories were controlled by alcaldes. Mexico never controlled the territories, and important to note "territories". Present day New Mexico and Arizona too sparse...in a one paragraph nutshell.

Here in Texas, the history is thick on this subject.

Mexico can't claim the territories and in fact the US gave back what is Mexico today in treaty because it was to much to deal with at the time. Mexico also gave a lot of territory South of Vera Cruz.

Different day and age.
Mg

a reply to: Asktheanimals

overt or covertly, needs to be put into perspective based on history for sure, especially more recent events that are more well known and established facts...

Somehow Iran Contra Affair did not even make the top 10

10 of the Most Lethal CIA Interventions in Latin America
www.telesurenglish.net...

Since July 26, 1947, the CIA has played a role in hundreds of assassinations, military coups, and rebellions around the globe, from Argentina to Zaire.

Excerpts

1. 1954 in Guatemala

In 1944, the violent U.S.-backed dictatorship of Jorge Ubico was overthrown by a popular uprising. Ubico had merely served as a puppet of the United Fruit Company, which basically enslaved the population. It stripped campesinos and Indigenous people of their lands and forced them to work their own parcels and paid them crumbs. Those who dared to disobey were brutally punished by a police force working for the U.S. agricultural company.

2. 1959 in Haiti

Haiti is as strategic to the United States as are the Dominican Republic and Cuba. But in Haiti, the story is different. In 1959, two years after coming to power, Francois Duvalier, with the help of the CIA, created a rural militia called the Tonton Macoute after a Haitian Creole bogeyman in response to discontent among the people to his developing dictatorial rule. The Macoute, which by 1961 was twice as big as the army, never developed into a real military force but was more than just a secret police, terrorizing those who opposed the U.S.-backed dictator.

3. 1964 in Brazil

The early 1960s were years of incredible transformation in Brazil. President Joao Goulart implemented his “Basic Reforms” plan, which aimed to combat adult illiteracy; control the transfer of profits by multinational companies with headquarters abroad by reforming tax laws; expropriate land and redistribute to the population.

4. 1969 in Uruguay

During the 1960s, revolutionary movements spread through Latin America. The United States saw influential socialist leaders emerge in this South American nation. For example, the urban revolutionary guerrilla group known as the Tupamaros. Jose “Pepe” Mujica was part of it and so was his wife Lucia Topolansky. Washington became obsessed with eliminating them, fearing the influence and power they were achieving.


5. 1971 in Bolivia

In 1967, Che Guevara was murdered after having led a guerrilla war in Bolivia against the oligarchy. The CIA-backed mission to assassinate the revolutionary leader had international repercussions.

6. 1973 in Chile

In Chile, the CIA used different tactics but the results were the same. The agency led a smear campaign against the government of Chile, as it is currently doing in Venezuela. They used national and international media to demonize socialist President Salvador Allende.

7. 1976 in Argentina

The Dirty War from 1976-1983 was marked by detention centers, torture centers, massacres, rape of women and children and disappearances. In total, 30,000 people are believed killed, with 13,000 disappeared.

8. 1980 in El Salvador

There is compelling evidence to show that for over 30 years, members of the U.S. military and the CIA helped organize, train, and fund death squad activity in El Salvador.

9. 1989 in Panama

On December 20, 1989, over 27,000 U.S. soldiers invaded Panama.

Under the name “Just Cause,” the operation left at least 3,000 dead in its wake, with many unidentified bodies burnt and piled up in the streets, according to many witnesses.

10. 1990 in Peru

Alberto Fujimori was elected president in 1990. He named Vladimiro Montesinos National Intelligence Service Director. Montesinos was at the center of a vast web of illegal activities, including embezzlement, graft, gunrunning, and drug trafficking. He was later tried, convicted and sentenced for numerous charges. Montesinos had strong connections with the CIA and was said to have received $10 million from the agency for his government's anti-terrorist activities.

a reply to: Asktheanimals


This is an interesting OP and thread. Everything that is said is based on the premise that there is a group of people that really have a right to that land. What you call indigenous people most likely came to that land or conquered the folks that were there before them. Just because we don't have a history and details doesn't mean that conquests and migration have not been going on since the earliest days of man. We love the concept of a pure culture of innocents, taken advantage of by a more cunning group, but I think that might be too simplistic.

Maybe, instead of asking which group of people have a right to specific land the real question is: does anyone have a right to believe they own a piece of the earth?

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: notsure1

From the Commanche, Kiowa, Pueblo, Zuni, Navajo, Pima, Apache and a hundred other tribes.

Well at least the US names its assault choppas after them.

a reply to: pointessa Are your proposing an international statues of limitations for Countries, that has a grievance, can file their claims or if any violations of any treaties arise and are in dispute, eliminate any and all opposition, rendering any complaints silenced, with fear of retaliation, as in treaties signed under duress or in cases where fraud or some criminal acts, of some form, may have been present.

If someone came to your house and entered it and held you hostage until you signed over the title to your property and agreed with their demands or else...? *If they were armed with Tanks, Bombs and Guns and all you and your family have is sticks and stones, to defend your family and property..

Let's say it does not end there, you are recruited into the conquerers armed forces to help conquer the rest of the block and town.

Would you or .do you have any rights to complain and file a grievance, and what would be the ramifications if you complained?


Just a microcosm perspective to consider.

200 year statue of limitations may be a bit long, though it may take several generations to remedy some situations.

Seeing a pattern>?

en.wikipedia.org...

List of wars involving the United States

Partial list:

Cherokee–American wars
(1776–1795)

Northwest Indian War
(1785–1793)

Tecumseh's War
(1811)

Part of the American Indian Wars and the War of 1812

War of 1812
(1812–1815)
Location: Eastern and Central North America

Creek War
(1813–1814)
Part of the American Indian Wars and the War of 1812
Location: Southern United States

First Seminole War
(1817–1818)
Part of the Seminole Wars and the American Indian Wars
Location: Pensacola, Florida

Texas–Indian wars
(1820–1875)
Part of the American Indian Wars and the Mexican Indian Wars
Location: Texas

Winnebago War
(1827)
Part of the American Indian Wars
Location: Illinois and Michigan Territory

Black Hawk War
(1832)
Part of the American Indian Wars
Location: Illinois and Michigan Territory

Second Seminole War
(1835–1842)
Part of the Seminole Wars and the American Indian Wars Location: Florida, United States

Mexican–American War
(1846–1848)
Location: Texas, New Mexico, California and Mexico

Cayuse War
(1847–1855)
Part of the American Indian Wars Location: Oregon

Apache Wars
(1851–1900)
Part of the Texas–Indian wars Location: Southwestern United States

Puget Sound War
(1855–1856)
Part of the American Indian Wars Location: Washington

Rogue River Wars
(1855–1856)
Location: Rogue Valley

Third Seminole War
Part of the Seminole Wars and the American Indian Wars
(1855–1858)
Location: Pensacola, Florida

Yakima War
Part of the American Indian Wars
(1855–1858) Location: Washington Territory

Navajo Wars
Part of the American Indian Wars
(1858–1866) Location: New Mexico

First and Second Cortina War
(1859–1861)
Location: Texas and Mexico

Paiute War
Part of the American Indian Wars
(1860) Location: Pyramid Lake, Nevada

Yavapai Wars
(1861–1875)
Location: Arizona

Dakota War of 1862
(1862)
Location: Minnesota and Dakota

Colorado War
(1863–1865)
Location: Colorado, Wyoming, and Nebraska

Snake War
(1864–1868)
Locations: Oregon, Nevada, California, and Idaho

Powder River War
(1865)
Location: Powder River State

Red Cloud's War
(1866–1868)
Location: Powder River State

Comanche Campaign
(1867–1875)
Location: Western United States

Modoc War
(1872–1873)
Location: California and Oregon

Red River War
(1874–1875)
Location: Texas

Las Cuevas War
(1875)
Location: Texas and Mexico

Great Sioux War of 1876
(1876–1877)
Location: Montana, Dakota and Wyoming

Buffalo Hunters' War
(1876–1877)
Location: Texas and Oklahoma

Nez Perce War
(1877)
Location: Oregon, Idaho, Wyoming, and Montana

Bannock War
(1878)
Location: Idaho, Oregon, and Wyoming

Cheyenne War
(1878–1879)
Location: Oklahoma, Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota and Montana

Sheepeater Indian War
(1879)
Location: Idaho

Victorio's War
(1879–1881)
Location: Mexico

White River War
(1879–1880)
Location: Colorado

Pine Ridge Campaign
(1890–1891)
Location: South Dakota

Garza Revolution
(1891–1893)
Location: Texas and Mexico

Yaqui Wars
(1896–1918)
Location: Arizona and Mexico

Crazy Snake Rebellion
(1909)
Location: Oklahoma

Border War
(1910–1919)
Part of the Mexican Revolution
Location: Mexico–United States border

Occupation of Nicaragua
(1912–1933)
Part of the Banana Wars
Location: Nicaragua

Bluff War
(1914–1915)
Location: Utah and Colorado

Occupation of Veracruz
(1914)
Part of the Mexican Revolution
Location: Mexico

Occupation of Haiti
(1915–1934)
Part of the Banana Wars
Location: Haiti

Occupation of the Dominican Republic
(1916–1924)
Part of the Banana Wars
Location: Dominican Republic

Last Indian Uprising
(1923)
Location: Utah

Insurgency in Bolivia
(1966–1967)
Part of the Cold War
Location: Bolivia

Invasion of Panama
(1989–1990)
Location: Panama

a reply to: missed_gear

Well no doubt. Most of it was just empty land. Even today, most of it is just vast swaths of empty land. Most of what they meant by territory was just cattle pasture, and today its the same. You see even today there is plenty of land out there, but that is not what were talking about now are we?

Even the border crossings is land. And guess what, most of it is more fertile then places like Las Vegas and other cities, but nobody seems to want to stay there now do they.

But you know, its only pre occupied land that seems to interest most people. Anyways, there is a book, Guns Germs and Steel. You seem to have read it, on a basis it pretty much covers this stuff.

And like I said its not only in the Americas that it happened, its pretty much what has been happening for thousands of years and more all across the world. From Mesopotamia and beyond to today, there have probably been billions of different tribes or peoples.

In fact before that, millions of years in fact, dinos and beyond, its all just nature taking its course. Like I said its nature, and in all differed days and ages, its merely just called by different words and labels.

Or at least by those species that used words and sound waves to communicate. The squabble of humans over territories is no more important then when ant hives invade and colonize other ant hives. So as to who owns the land?

Its a rhetorical and stupid question, most especially seeing that in time the answer is "no one" Your merely renting it of your allotted time, in fact not even that since in most cases your just dependent on what is on or in that land, most times in all of human history it was the land that dictated who can live there, not the other way around. Which is why when places like the Sahara dried up, suddenly many died, or they moved.

So you see. You don't own the land. The land owns you, and not only that, but also dictates how long you will exist on it.

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I've read Guns, Germs and Steel. Great book, tilted heavily towards a progressive/revisionist history but still one well worth reading. Jared Diamond has much to say about land and the people that come and go on it.

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
a reply to: notsure1

Point taken. Land by conquest is the accepted way of defining territory up until very recently and those are in contention.

What gives you the idea that it will not happen again?

Acceptance has nothing to do with it...the next time this planet gets riled up it will be winner take all..no survivors or negotiations whatsoever...

a reply to: ParasuvO

That's what I meant by in contention.
There are those who don't hold the current borders as legitimate.
Time (and power) will tell who decides where the border is.
So far as international law rule by conquest is recognized as legal boundaries in nearly all cases.

No. We won it in war. Just like how the "Native Americans" took land from each other. Like all nations, tribes and peoples threw out history and continents.

Are you advocating Mexican "reservations" for "stolen" land/territory owned by the US.?

This petty party about Native Americans (indians) needs to stop in the next hundred years.
Whoever lived there stole it from somebody, Spain stole it from them, Mexico stole it from Spain, we stole ot from Mexico. Stole or won it, same thing.
See how history works?

"Natives" should be more concerned on how to keep it. More than trying to rewrite history and questioning the victor.
Anybody that has hurt feelings over the subjugated peoples, trying to guilt trip the new, now "Natives". Should give their belongings to the conquered and shut up about how it happened.

The old/original "Natives" got what they had thru war and trade. America (U.S.A.) grew as they did. No shame in that. Really ain't worth rehashing.
Trick will be to keep it.

To say that the Native, Ingenious and Mexican people were not murdered, genocided, and "deported" with land being taken over by European settlers/colonisers is ignorant, or that "america" didn't take over their land to install their borders/states is also ignorant, but also, the Spanish and French are to blame as well, the Spanish killed many native and indigenous people, and there was also the cowards that were hired to kill their own people

but this attempt for american to wash their hands of blood, and say "false flag" or "not america" etc is ignorant and extremely biased, especially already coming from D'souza who has been known to embellish, and lie about things

a reply to: notsure1


The Solutreans, who came from Europe before the asian migrations. The solutreans stole the land from the giant Sloths, who stole it from a camel like animal, who stole it from a 5 toed horse, the horses stole it from small shrews who stole it from the DINOSAURS, taking advantage of the asteroid hit. So The southwest actually belongs to T REX!!!!!

originally posted by: chr0naut
a reply to: Asktheanimals

The Spanish Mexicans and the European Americans both stole land.

Manifest destiny is just shorthand for 'we deserved it'. It was not undiscovered country.

But you don't understand we wanted it more than them. Mexico was under spanish rule and spain claimed the area because they wanted it more than the indians. I find the people that want lans the most usually end up with it.