40 yrs ago STURP began in Vatican City, 1st time a major Relic Scientifically studied

a reply to: The angel of light

There you go again I never said anything about Jesus to start your rant. What I said was the Shroud of Turin is fake and was made to get pilgrims to give money to the church. Im glad you believe Jesus existed that's a debate for another op. If you think the shroud in some way validates or believe it is not needed is truly irrelevant.

Bottom line is during the middle ages people were regularly fooled by false icons in order to scam them. In this case, even the Vatican tried to stop this swindling of their followers and declared the shroud fake. It also by no means was the only one there was Sudarium of Oviedo kept in the Cámara Santa of the Cathedral of San Salvador. Then we have the Mandylion currently two claim to be this relic. Then we have Veil of Veronica I mentioned earlier which is in saint peters basilica. Then we have the holy coat claimed to be the clothes Jesus wore during the crucifixion and currently claimed to be in several churches including moscow. And then we can get into his crown, the nails from the cross, pieces of the cross, the whip used on Jesus. multiple claims on the holy grail and my favourite the holy sponge used to give Jesus a drink during the crucifixion.

You have to realize none of these things are from the 1st century this was all invented in the middle ages.

Now did Jesus exist maybe its a matter of faith. Problem is there is no evidence that Jesus of the bible did anything mentioned in the bible. If you choose to believe it I really don't care there are worse things you could believe in. But dont use fake relics to try to show or prove the bible accurate. Trust me a spent a long time trying to verify the existence of Christ. And probably know far more than you about the subject

Seeing the pollen on the Shroud can be traced back to 1st century Syria then to Palestine,Edessa,Constantinopal then France..The Mandylion was the Shroud folded only to show the head panel and framed.

a reply to: Blackfinger

Well, the polen samples taken from the shroud certainly validated since 1978, through the analysis carried out by the internationallly renown expert Max Frei, the long trip of the relic from the Holy Land through Syria, eastern Turkey, Anatolia , Istanbul to France.

They represent a so strong evidence in favor of the thesis that the Shroud also enter in Europe through Turkey, following a similar path of the Mandylion of Edessa.

Nevertheless, the existence of more than one holy face not made by human hands is well known since the times of the Roman Empire, even before the arrival of Constantine the Great to the imperial throne.

Holy faces of Christ or Acheiropoietas

There were various of this Holy faces all miracolously made but of different origin:

- The Camulia, or Kamuliana, a veil with a holy face appeared floating on a river to a humble laundry woman in Cappadocia, central Anatolia on the first centuries of our era and brought to Constantinople around 560 AD to be carried in tr pennon of the Imperial army.

- The Veronica or Vera Icon stamped on a napkin or hankerchief used to clean the face of Jesus in his way to calvary, by the same woman that suffered of a hemorrhage and was cured by him. It is on Rome since Tiberius Cesar time used to perform miraculous cures.

- The Shroud of Christ with a whole body image already known and exhibited in the Pharos Chapel of the Imperial Palace in Constantinople since the year 900.

- The Mandylion and its companion or twin image on a tile called the Keramylion, which historically are related with King Abgar of Edessa, the leper, and that was sent by Jesus, prior to his crucifixion, to him to facilitate a distant miracle after the monarch sent his emissaries asking for a portrait of Christ.

Pls check
Mandylion of Edessa most likely was Not the Shroud

The two last were traditionally linked with St. Jude Thaddeus, that although for centuries were considered only one individual recent findings suggest might be 2 Saints, one the 12 Apostles and other one of the 200 disciples ordained by Christ.

The Shroud could be the Mandylion exhibit in a case but Not necessarily.

The knight Robert the Clary has left written testimony that he saw the two relics venerated in different churches.

In Edessa it was never documented that the image was of whole body or had blood of Christ, but as soon as it arrived to Constantinople the known accounts talk about an image of entire body and Christ blood.

What happened then?

They were the same relic?

Or two different arrived to the Byzantine Capital in an operation of rescue before the Muslims took control of eastern lands?

Pls Check
The Shroud and Mandylion both brought to Constantinople?

The Orthodox Christians believe the Mandilyon may have been lost for ever in a naufrage of a Byzantine Ship in the Marmara sea, escaping from the Otoman siege of Constantinople.

There is also the possibility it corresponds to the veil of Manoppello, venerated in Italy, or that relic of mysterious origin arrived to that town on middle ages might be the legendary Camulia.

Pls check
History of famous Acheiropoietas

Of course all of them were copied at some time by reputed artists with special permits , never as a part of any conspiracy, and those certified copies were touched to serve as icons with the respective originals to share holyness.

It is Not really precise that there are multitude of false relics claiming authenticity, that is another bold mythic half truth or obssessive lie of who has decided to attack the thread.

What is certainly true is that each relic was copied to facilitate veneration to people that couldn't have easy access to the original ones. This is perfectly understandable, remember there were neither photographies, neither films nor videos nor slides or internet at ancient times.

The Angel of Lightness

There are supposed to be a number of well documented miracles associated with some of these relics, icons also. I can not personally claim to have witnessed these or even to be in a position to examine the evidence much less verify the miracles myself. Even if you think all the relics are fake, if you believe even one of these miracles occurred through faith and belief, it becomes much more difficult to assert Jesus did not do any of the things ascribed to him in the bible.

Is it that easy to deny the accumulated experience of the last 2000 years?

a reply to: andy06shake

I think it is perhaps more exact to narrow your claim by saying if He was like you or any other person you may have known or heard about, with all respect.

I don't think you have enough life experience to certify what kind of man was Christ, or what kind of woman was his mother, that is something a little beyond your scope.

The best you can say is that you have heard or read something from other that claim to be better informed, but is your personal decision who do you trust.

Your words sound similar to say we can be sure that whoever was inside the UFO crashed in Rosewell in 1947 was Human too.

That is why the mysteries of the shroud are interesting for science, since if it is proven to be actually his burial cloth should give us direct access to check evidence.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

Mate, I'm older than Jebus ever made it to.

And nobody's ever crucified me nether.

Just a thought.

a reply to: toms54

Well, I am not sure about records of miracles attributed to the shroud, but I am sure of existence of records of exhibition of the relic before its arrival to France.

The Pray Codex that is in a museum at Budapest is an ilimunated medieval manuscript dated in 1191 with C14 and has an Ilustration of the shroud that is remarkably detailed even in to show the holes caused by the fire of the siege of Constantinople and the style of the textile.

On the occasion of the transfer of the cloth to Constantinople in 944, Gregory Referendarius, archdeacon of Hagia Sophia in Constantinople, preached a sermon about the artifact.

His sermon had been lost but was rediscovered in the Vatican Archives and translated by Mark Guscin in 2004.

This sermon says that this Edessa cloth contained not only the face, but a full-length image, which was believed to be of Jesus.

The sermon also mentions bloodstains from a wound in the side. Other documents have since been found in the Vatican library and the University of Leiden, Netherlands, confirming this impression.

"Non tantum faciei figuram sed totius corporis figuram cernere poteris" (You can see not only the figure of a face, but [also] the figure of the whole body). (In Italian) (Cf. Codex Vossianus Latinus Q69 and Vatican Library Codex 5696, p. 35.)

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: The angel of light

The prey codex does not mention the shroud. People assume the shroud to be accurate based off a drawing showing Jesus being prepared for burial. No where does it show an image on a shroud and has nothing to do 2ith the shroud of Turin.

Currently the shroud can only be traced back to 1350. Anything else is just speculation carbon dating actually puts it anywhere from 1260 to 1390. So oddly carbon dating matches the first time we see the shroud displayed.

The Shroud was folded and folded so the head was able to be framed at Edessa.When it was in danger it was removed from display and placed on top of the gate behind a stone.A few hundred years later it was rediscovered and from there you can follow the Mandylion lineage.If you follow all the ideology,portraits,copies,wraps in detail they all follow traits of the shroud.There was a huuuge trade in first and second contact idols,portraits,relics and other paraphernalia after that when christianity took hold..
If you follow the science it all makes sense..Blood stains show a cap of thorns,nails in the right spots,lance wound in the abdomen,non broken legs.Many photos are of the negative view of the shroud.The Positive image was apparently hard to see.First scientific dating process was in 69 off memory.A lot of scientists have studied it over the years each with varying degrees of success.
Thing that nobody mentions is that blood was still flowing after wrapping in the shroud.Corpses dont do that.

a reply to: dragonridr

Absolutely wrong, you are showing to handle really poor, biased and misinforming sources, you need to read all the literature available and moreover the most updated.

The illustration in the Pray Codex does Not correspond to any other cloth, the characteristic textile Herringbone weaven is depicted with precision, but more over is the only medieval painting that shows the two "L"shaped configuration of holes caused by one of the fires , showing the relic was kept in a case of silver that melted completely burning the shroud folded square corners.

Additionally Christ Appears with his arms crossed over his abdomen, the hands on his lap and there are only 4 fingers in each one visible, since the other ones are behind showing the effect of nails piercing on the wrists and Not the hand palms as it occurs in all other Christian imagery.

There is No other depiction of Christ burial along all History showing the corpse in that position apart if the Turin Shroud and the Prey Codex.

I trust in the Statistical Analysis carried out that shows that the chances of all these coincidences may occur at random in between two objects never related at all one with another are clearly neglible.

Pls Check
shroudstory.com...

That illustration is consistent entirely with the dating of the C14 testing of 1982 in the nuclear accelarator facility of University of California by a laboratory that was comissioned by the Vatican to recommend protocols of preservation of the relic. That dating was between 200 BC to 1000 AD.

Pls check
The Rape of The Shroud : How the most precious relic was Violated and Wrongly defamated. By W.Meacham University of Hong Kong

What certainly disagree is the testing of 1988, but everybody knows that tested a corner of the cloth that we are certain was used for centuries to hold the relic in public ostentations, even by touching it with naked hands and became therefore wasted and ulteriorly repaired with new fibers by nuns. That was one of the worst possible areas to sample the object if the idea was to accurately date it.

By the way since 2010 the results of the C14 testing were severely questioned by Riani et Al., no longer considered actually reliable, since they didn't resist statistical analysis of variance carried out by a team of scientists of Udine, Parma, Emilia, Padova, and London Universities. The Data was found clearly Not homogeneous showing sample contamination as a possible cause on 1988 dating.

Pls check
Not homogeneity found through Variance analysis in data of C14 test of Shroud

In 2013 the University of Padova was authorized to perform a third C14 test that was consistent with what it was found in 1982, they showed that this Shroud is dated between 400 BC and 300 AD.

Pls check
2013 University of Padua C14 test of the Shroud

The results of the last test were officially accepted by HH Pope Francis in the Vatican city.

The Angel of Lightness

a reply to: toms54
My conclusion is that "morality" is born out of necessity, and therefore subjective. What we call morality is no more or less than a group consensus of what reality is, and the tenants necessary to maintain that reality. Without that consensus, and the tenants to maintain it, the group has no adhesive to hold it together for the good of the whole, nor of the individual, and chaos reigns.

If we are to speak in moral absolutes at all, then of necessity, those absolutes should address humanity as a whole, rather than subdivided groups. It is for this reason religion is the most ill-equipped of all to be the arbiter of morality, because their tenants rest on the premise that everyone believes, and in some cases MUST believe as they do. This alone disqualifies them, even if some of their tenants are beneficial.
No one sub-group, whether government, deist, theist, or atheist, has the objectivity to legislate morality, or even the consensus of reality, for the whole of the human species.

In my personal opinion, there is one tenant that addresses all of humankind, and is so old, that no one knows its author. Every person on earth, with or without faith, can agree on it, no matter how many ways it has been stated for many thousands of years. We all know it as the Golden Rule, and it applies to ALL without prejudice.

Egypt – “Now this is the command: Do to the doer to make him do.”
"That which you hate to be done to you, do not do to another."
Indian Sanskrit – “treat others as you treat yourself.”
Greece - "Avoid doing what you would blame others for doing."
"What you do not want to happen to you, do not do it yourself either.”
"Do not do to others that which angers you when they do it to you."
Roman - "Treat your inferior as you would wish your superior to treat you."

…and so many more. What can be added to this one simple tenant to make it better? And yet, few follow its simple but profound wisdom.

a reply to: Klassified

There is a lot in your post that I can agree with, especially the search for something beyond relative morality. At some level there is an absolute good. Statements like it is OK to injure outsiders just not your own group might work for wartime but not in the larger sense as an ideal to strive for. I think there is hope for this world.

a reply to: toms54

At some level there is an absolute good.

One to rule them all?

The Golden Rule? That is a good one. Highly logical if one is a creature of society. Which we seem to have evolved to be.

a reply to: The angel of light

And oddly in the codex there is no image on the shroud just what is claimed by believers to be the weave of the fabric. Odd don't you think they would show the most important feature of the shroud and not how it was weaved?

Heres a clue for coincidence isnt really coincidence when you put together medieval writings and you forge a relic in medieval times. Id say you'll find common beliefs like how they believed people in the first century were buried.

A little search in history will tell you what a 1st century burial shroud should look like and how it was wrapped. By the way it would leave an image that looked nothing like the shroud since they were wrapped around the body. And the head was wrapped with an entirely different piece meaning there should never be an image of his head and body on the same cloth.

It was never to be a burial shroud.Thats the kicker.Everything about the event it says it wasnt a burial..The cloth is 1st century Syrian herringbone cotton weave.Nothing says it was medieval except for the post fire repairs.