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8 U.S. Code Section 1401. The following shall be NATIONALS and citizens of the U.S. at birth

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posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 12:34 PM
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What does being a 'U.S. national' mean with regard to being a 'U.S. citizen'?



8 U.S. Code § 1101 - Definitions
(21) The term “national” means a person owing permanent allegiance to a state.

(22) The term “national of the United States” means (A) a citizen of the United States, or (B) a person who, though not a citizen of the United States, owes permanent allegiance to the United States.

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I'm thinking about creating a thread on a related topic in the coming days, but first I need to understand the concept of 'nationality' as it relates to U.S. citizenship and I'm hoping for some useful feedback. (Note: It’s not that I haven’t done the research myself, I’ve spent plenty of time researching U.S. nationality, I'm just coming up short on concrete answers that I can feel confident about).

By all accounts, it seems that all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals but some U.S. nationals are not U.S. citizens. That’s the position of the federal government takes, anyway.

However, I cannot find any laws prohibiting a person from being born a U.S. citizen without being born a U.S. national.

It seems that it could just be the 'law of nature' that all U.S. citizens are U.S. nationals -- because allegiance is a necessary component of citizenship. Case in point, if you become a naturalized U.S. citizen, you must take an oath of allegiance. However, I can’t find any written mandate and nationality is NOT conferred to those born in the U.S. via the Citizenship Clause in the Fourteenth Amendment:


Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside.


Contrast this with the related code from the 1952 Immigration & Nationality Act which *ahem* conspicuously includes ‘nationality:’


8 U.S. Code § 1401 - Nationals and citizens of United States at birth

The following shall be nationals and citizens of the United States at birth:

(a) a person born in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof;

(etc…)


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So what gives with that? If the 14th Amendment does not confer/guarantee U.S. nationality to all those born U.S. citizens, is it 'legal' (even if the federal government ignores it) to be born a U.S. citizen without being born a U.S. national? Is U.S. nationality an absolutely essential ingredient to being a U.S. citizen and without it, you have no U.S. citizenship? Why or why not?

EDIT: One last question...can you be a 'natural born U.S. Citizen' if you are not born a 'U.S. National'?

Thanks in advance for thoughtful feedback!



edit on 11/1/2018 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)




posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 12:47 PM
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Wow.... scratcher there. I thought a US national was a non naturalized person. Naturalized being born in the US to US parents. We had peeps in the military who were like that. Naturalized....but not full citizens because of naturalization.
Thought provoking.....thanks!



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 12:55 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

Look at it this way....in my city for a long time now....some foreigners can't immigrate normally...so when wife is 7-8 months pregnant....they get a 3-6 month tourist visa to visit knowing the child will be born here.

That child is then a natural born citizen. NOW the parents can immigrate in, when before, they could not. We've let 1,000's in on that method.

Now? How many "questionable" foreigners...even terrorists...have we let in this way? Natural born child to non-naturalzed visiting foreigners.

I watch it everyday here in Dearborn Mi, where middleasterners come in the dozens daily....you'd be shocked...

ETA: ie: pregnant niece visits aunt Hameida....in a few weeks, drive by the house and you'll see ribbons, balloons etc and "It's a boy/girl!"....the process is then in motion
edit on 1-11-2018 by mysterioustranger because: Oops



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 12:57 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

Here is a good post from AsktheAnimals containing a video by Stefan Molyneux that breaks it down very well.


originally posted by: Asktheanimals
The 14th amendment is currently under scrutiny due to Trump's desire to eliminate anchor babies through executive order. It seems understanding of this issue is split among partisan lines so it's important that we all have some historical context to clear up the interpretation. This video provides many quotes by those who actually wrote and voted on the 14th Amendment and their reasoning behind it.

This hits many of the main points if you don't have time to watch the video:
www.heritage.org...



And here is also Commentary from the Heritage Foundation found by WhyWhyNot that also explains the situation if you prefer to read instead of watch a video.


originally posted by: whywhynot
www.heritage.org...


There are legitimate arguments to consider. It’s funny to hear Lefty howl you must follow the Constitution!



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:00 PM
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originally posted by: lakenheath24
Wow.... scratcher there. I thought a US national was a non naturalized person. Naturalized being born in the US to US parents. We had peeps in the military who were like that. Naturalized....but not full citizens because of naturalization.
Thought provoking.....thanks!


It's a concept that I can't quite grasp.

From what I understand, If U.S. citizens visit a foreign country, they are considered U.S. nationals rather than U.S. citizens while in that country.

Nationality seems to be as meaningful as citizenship...I'd like to understand it better and I think it might shed some light on the Citizenship Clause in the 14th Amendment.



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:02 PM
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a reply to: watchitburn

Thanks, I'll watch it and read the link.



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:09 PM
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originally posted by: watchitburn


www.heritage.org...




This doesn't consider nationality....although it alludes to it with this:


Owing allegiance to the United States and being subject to its complete jurisdiction means being “not subject to any foreign power” and excludes those only temporarily present in the country.


I am more looking for opinions.

Do you think that a person must be a U.S. national (swear allegiance or born a U.S. national) in order to qualify for U.S. citizenship?

Would a person be a 'lesser citizen' if they were not also a U.S. national?
edit on 11/1/2018 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:15 PM
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Does a person who owns dual citizenship have a duty to be more loyal to the USA then the state of their other citizenship?



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:19 PM
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This was circulating on Facebook this morning, I have not vetted the article

www.cnsnews.com... lpy1uvjP3mKce1Xz1Lv5mhT1WmN-5Nq8ocwEIo2w

The author of the 14th had this to say:

As for birthright citizenship, Sen. Howard said “foreigners” and “aliens” born on U.S. soil are, “of course,” not citizens:

“This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:25 PM
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originally posted by: sligtlyskeptical
Does a person who owns dual citizenship have a duty to be more loyal to the USA then the state of their other citizenship?


There are some acts that are expatriating and, if I recall correctly, pledging primary allegiance to a foreign sovereignty is one of them. It has to be done with the understanding/intent of relinquishing your U.S. nationality.

You would really have to read SCOTUS decisions pertaining to expatriation to get a good grasp on how the laws operate.

Being born with dual nationality is not expatriating, in and of itself.

This probably doesn't exactly answer your question, but, yes, I think you are expected to owe primary allegiance to the U.S. if you are a U.S. citizen.

However, if you are a U.S. citizen living abroad...you are regarded as a 'U.S. national,' not a 'U.S. citizen' per se, because you are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.

On a related note, U.S. passports are only issued to U.S. Nationals.


edit on 11/1/2018 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:29 PM
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originally posted by: misskat1
This was circulating on Facebook this morning, I have not vetted the article

www.cnsnews.com... lpy1uvjP3mKce1Xz1Lv5mhT1WmN-5Nq8ocwEIo2w

The author of the 14th had this to say:

As for birthright citizenship, Sen. Howard said “foreigners” and “aliens” born on U.S. soil are, “of course,” not citizens:

“This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”


Yes, that is relevant and leaves no question in my mind that there's room for a lot of debate about the 14th.

And I personally believe that 'aliens' refers to anyone not having U.S. nationality and, instead, having a foreign nationality.



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:31 PM
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I feel like if I included some partisan context more people would take up a side and have strong opinions on the topic.



edit on 11/1/2018 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:41 PM
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a reply to: MotherMayEye

I think leaving partisanship out of it is the only way to actually dig into this issue. And it's better off having just facts instead of political trolling for 9 pages.



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:44 PM
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a reply to: watchitburn

That was my hope. Just looking for unbiased thoughts.




posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:48 PM
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originally posted by: [post=23916502]MotherMayEye[/post



However, if you are a U.S. citizen living abroad...you are regarded as a 'U.S. national,' not a 'U.S. citizen' per se, because you are not subject to the jurisdiction of the U.S.

On a related note, U.S. passports are only issued to U.S. Nationals.



Why do you think that US citizens living abroad are not subject to US jurisdiction? They must pay taxes, they receive Social Security if applicable, they can be sued civically or criminally, they may vote, if there was a draft they could be drafted. I don’t understand?

Also, check out the wording on a US Passport about ...the citizen/national of the US named herein...

en.m.wikipedia.org...#/media/File%3APassportmessageUSA.jpg
edit on 1-11-2018 by whywhynot because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 01:59 PM
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originally posted by: MotherMayEye

originally posted by: misskat1
This was circulating on Facebook this morning, I have not vetted the article

www.cnsnews.com... lpy1uvjP3mKce1Xz1Lv5mhT1WmN-5Nq8ocwEIo2w

The author of the 14th had this to say:

As for birthright citizenship, Sen. Howard said “foreigners” and “aliens” born on U.S. soil are, “of course,” not citizens:

“This will not, of course, include persons born in the United States who are foreigners, aliens, who belong to the families of ambassadors or foreign ministers accredited to the government of the United States, but will include every other class of persons.”


Yes, that is relevant and leaves no question in my mind that there's room for a lot of debate about the 14th.

And I personally believe that 'aliens' refers to anyone not having U.S. nationality and, instead, having a foreign nationality.


There is not much room for debate actually.

The wording is clearly for people under another countries power meaning ambassadors. Embassies have different rules that are not subject to American laws.

Diplomats have special laws in many cases. This is what is being referred to.

The citizenship clause is pretty cut and dry.

Illegals aliens here of their own will are not under the jurisdiction of their countries like ambassadors. They are under us jurisdiction and have rights appointed by natural law.

Our founders were trying to create rights given by the creator or natural rights to anybody who came here. If you read Bates Lincoln's AG you can see how they shaped the amendment to include anyone born here. If they meant something different they wouldn't have written it the way they did.

The constitution differentiates in several places, citizens and people. For a reason.



Of coarse most of our young men were also dead when the citizenship clause was written. Something people often forget.



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 02:13 PM
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This link points out some differences between nationality and citizenship.

keydifferences.com...


Nationality is the individual membership that shows a person's relationship with the state.

Citizenship is the political status, which states that the person is recognized as a citizen of the country.


Also this:
www.immihelp.com...
edit on 1-11-2018 by Asktheanimals because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 02:16 PM
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a reply to: whywhynot

I'm saying from the view of the foreign country they are living in, they are considered US nationals, that's why I said "per se."

Or that's what I've read through the course of researching this.
edit on 11/1/2018 by MotherMayEye because: (no reason given)



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 02:17 PM
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originally posted by: Asktheanimals
This link points out some differences between nationality and citizenship.

keydifferences.com...


Nationality is the individual membership that shows a person's relationship with the state.

Citizenship is the political status, which states that the person is recognized as a citizen of the country.


Also this:
www.immihelp.com...


Certainly one of the places we went wrong.

How about just American instead of " " American. Genetics aren't really where you pledge allegiance.



posted on Nov, 1 2018 @ 02:21 PM
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originally posted by: luthier

originally posted by: Asktheanimals
This link points out some differences between nationality and citizenship.

keydifferences.com...


Nationality is the individual membership that shows a person's relationship with the state.

Citizenship is the political status, which states that the person is recognized as a citizen of the country.


Also this:
www.immihelp.com...


Certainly one of the places we went wrong.

How about just American instead of " " American. Genetics aren't really where you pledge allegiance.


"American" isn't really relevant to US citizenship and US nationality.



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