U.S. Gov Loses Landmark Vaccination Lawsuit

a reply to: Phage

Phage, somebody on this thread already answered that. Are you trying to cause redundancies here. But ya, like the dude on this very thread somewhere said. Vaccines then and now are different and for different things, and also a mass influx of monies into better living standards and hygiene practices, and living quarters and everything else across the board were as much a factor if not more so then vaccines are.

That's like asking when was the last time somebody contracted the measles. Who know, probably yesterday. And even though they like to think polio was eradicated in 1980. Well the more things change the more they stay the same. Seems a strain or such is making a comeback, 393 cases and counting, or at least according to some sites. But hey if you dont call it polio, then even if it has the same symptoms, I suppose its not polio.

I for one think we should call it, dolio. Sounds less scary and more kid friendly. Polio has such a bad rap after all. And smallpox? Well, it is a wide world full of wonder out there, who knows what can happen or has happened since the 1980s. And think it only took 30 or 40 so years to fully get a hold on it all. But how long do you think it will take to make a resurgence. Its only been about 38 years since you could say those two have been eradicated.

Like I said vaccines are not a be all and end all. Its silly to believe that.
Polio like disease paralyzes children

originally posted by: Phage

You are not the only person with whom I am interacting in this thread. Don't flatter yourself. Follow the reply chains.

Not flattering myself, it was your own fault that you did not properly quote you were responding to yet another member. More so when you are trying to accuse me of dishonesty, when it is you who keeps taking comments out of context, you use the name of the thread which is the name of the first evidence I posted in the form of videos, and it is you who keeps showing never to admit when you are wrong, but instead try to make those who point out your false claims as "the real bad person..."

a reply to: galadofwarthethird

I actually contracted "smallpox" on my first, or second year of attending high school in the U.S., but the school didn't demand that I should take the vaccine, instead I had to stay at home for I think for 3 days to a week. It wasn't long and since I was doing good in school it didn't really matter. It didn't leave marks in my face, and it didn't cause me to die, or feel any pain. Instead my own immune system fought it off and won. The people who get marks in their face most often scratch their faces because it itches.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Not flattering myself, it was your own fault that you did not properly quote you were responding to yet another member.

I used the quote feature. In both posts.

but instead try to make those who point out your false claims as "the real bad person..."

No. I try to point out their errors. Please show where I have called you a "real bad person."

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Do you mean chicken pox?

Because smallpox is something else entirely.

Smallpox was an infectious disease caused by one of two virus variants, variola major and variola minor.[7] The last naturally occurring case was diagnosed in October 1977 and the World Health Organization certified the global eradication of the disease in 1980.[10] The risk of death following contracting the disease was about 30%, with higher rates among babies.[6][11] Often those who survived had extensive scarring of their skin and some were left blind.[6]

en.wikipedia.org...

The last outbreak in the US was in 1949. How old are you?
articles.latimes.com...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

I actually contracted "smallpox" on my first, or second year of attending high school in the U.S

Um no you didn't....

originally posted by: Phage
Oh. Now where's the part about HSS compiling vaccine test reports and forwarding them to Congress?

Did I write Congress Phage, or did i write that HSS has to provide "the Committee on Energy and Commerce of the House of Representatives" and the "Committee on Labor and Human Resources of the Senate" with the reports Phage?... In another response I wrote HSS has to give the reports to "the respective House and Senate Committees"...

And Phage...it is in the section i gave you, which then you used to demand "why did you e

Do not try to reflect your own behavior on others Phage. It's not nice. It was you who after all claimed...

BTW, it was actually you who wrote, and i quote yet again:

originally posted by: Phage
I'm not implying anything. I am applying the law which says HSS is supposed to provide reports to Congress. Reports about what they have done to meet their mandate. Nothing in that mandate about giving testing results to Congress. Just to report on what HSS has done. Testing and approval falls under the authority of the FDA, not HHS.

originally posted by: Phage

There does not seem to be any requirement that vaccine manufacturers submit test results to HSS. The law does not seem to say that.

To this claim of yours i excerpted the other subsection of the entire law, and then asked you if HSS makes vaccines...

originally posted by: Phage
No imagination?

Oh...so naming a thread exactly how it is named in an article, or other piece of evidence is "a lack of imagination"?...

OMG, Phage just insulted my imagination!!!...

originally posted by: Phage
Dismissal.

Yeah Phage...leave out the voluntary part or the part that states both parties agreed to this voluntary dismissal because the government admitted they could not find any records, hence they could not provide the records or paper trail/indexes as requested in the lawsuit...

To those actually interested in the truth.

originally posted by: Phage
Yes. And it has nothing to do with the lawsuit.

But it was to show proof that you were wrong...

Here is a neat trick, how about this Phage; read the entire law and then point me to where it says that HSS makes children's vaccines... That's the only way the HSS would not need the reports from vaccine makers who make childhood vaccines... Unless Phage wants to go with option c and she thinks HSS uses psychics...

Here, let me make it a bit easier for ya...
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov...

Break a leg

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Do you mean chicken pox?

You are right, I made another mistake... oO But hey at least i admit to being human, but I don't expect you to ever admit being wrong because you can't do so ever...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

"the respective House and Senate Committees"...

Yes. Congress.

The United States Congress has an upper chamber called the Senate and a lower chamber called the House of Representatives (or “House” for short) which share the responsibilities of the legislative process to create federal statutory law.

www.govtrack.us...

Oh...so naming a thread exactly how it is named in an article, or other piece of evidence is "a lack of imagination"?...

You used an erroneous video title even though you knew it was so? The Government did not lose the lawsuit.

Now show me where the law requires HHS to compile and submit vaccine test reports to Congress. It doesn't. It requires the HHS to report on the progress it has made toward its mandate. It seems they failed to do so.

originally posted by: Blaine91555
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

.....................
The smart money would be to bet on the consensus among the medical community, not nonsense by the fringe in the community.

The smart money is to test the damn vaccines.

At my day job as an environmental scientist we argue about the medial science 'deniers' like a 50 page IPCC thread here on ATS. With such a knowledge base, we don't all agree. I can promise you if they thought the tests weren't conducted they would agree to not use them until absolutely necessary (damn the torpedo's, full speed ahead) or absolutely safe.

originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Really?... is that why even people who have worked for vaccine makers, such as Merck virologists Stephen A. Krahling and Joan A. Wlochowski, have testified to the opposite of what you claim Phage?

The opposite of what I said would be that vaccines are not tested.

The plaintiffs are not saying the mumps vaccine was not tested. They are saying that Merck lied to the FDA about the effectiveness of the vaccine. The effectiveness, not the safety.

The case is yet to go to trial, I think. But if it is true that Merck lied, they should be punished for it.

So until the case goes to trial we should just take the vaccines as life saving and never wrong?

Why do you of all of us on here, defend such practice as hiding data if you are about the facts?

originally posted by: Phage
You used an erroneous video title even though you knew it was so? The Government did not lose the lawsuit.

Did the government win the argument Phage? Or they they had to admit that they could not find any records, or even indexes of the "reports." If you want to play semantics because the law states the director of HSS must "report" to the committees, you are doing nothing more than playing semantics. The purpose of the lawsuit was for the government to provide records of the "reports," but instead the government had to admit there were no records of the reports, or even indexes... But you want to claim that's a win for the government?...

originally posted by: Phage
Now show me where the law requires HHS to compile and submit vaccine test reports to Congress. It doesn't. It requires the HHS to report on the progress it has made toward its mandate. It seems they failed to do so.

...
“REPORT

“SEC. 2104. The Director shall report to the Committee on Energy and Commerce of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Labor and Human Resources of the Senate not later than January 1, 1988, and annually thereafter on the implementation of the Program and the plan prepared under section 2103.

42 USC 300aa-4.
...

vaccineimpact.com...

What is going to be your next argument Phage?... That the director has to memorize everything and that no record would ever be filed whatsoever?...

Someone will take the fall for this and things will trundle along as they always have

a reply to: M4ngo

I gave you a star for providing that list, although i am not certain what your argument is. Have anything to add on your own words?

Correct me if I'm wrong but it certainly looks like this case has been dismissed and not won or lost by anyone.
Unless you count losing as having a case dismissed, in which case Kennedy lost.

Or have I lost my ability to read?

Anyway, here's a more succinct summary than I could write

"So I just wanted to post here, because this is another very example of the lies that the anti-vaxx movement uses in order to continue to push against the anti-vaxx movement.

HHS never lost any lawsuit in this case, and HHS has not been sued for failing to perform any safety studies. Every article I could find came from an anti-vaxx website and failed to continue anything close to journalistic integrity.

I took the time to find the court case, read over the documents, and publish my findings. It's important to note that I am not a recognized lawyer in any state, and my understanding of the law comes entirely from reading over the law and previous lawsuits.

I downloaded each of the documents from the document website and hosted them myself. I did this because there is a fee to view every document, and I wanted anyone who sees this to review the documents on their own without paying anything. If you want to find the case on your own to verify, search using this link and the case number 1:18-cv-03215-JMF

The first document is the complaint form, which has the first sign of legal bull#. A complaint form is supported to include all of the wrongs of the defendant, so the judge can use them to make a ruling. However, in this case, they included a lot of outlier data (stuff that should be included as an exhibit or reference document) and the first several paragraphs are just outlining the congressional act regarding HHS and who the defendant is. You can read over everything, or just skip to II: The FOIA Request which start with paragraph twenty.

This is the actual complaint, in which they complain that they send an FOIA request and never got a response back. That's it. Every article that I can see is that they spin this to say "We did an FOIA and they told us they never did a report and so we sued". That's bull****, they are suing because they opened an FOIA and never got a response. Completely different things.

(The next document is the response written by the HHS.) (drive.google.com...) This document is way easier to read, because they don't try and shove as much BS as they can into the document. They response to every paragraph in the complaint (which is supposed to be each a complaint) and the vast majority of it is just saying, "Not something that we can response to" since most of the complaint was just listing out facts instead of a complaint. You can read all of this or skip to where it says DEFENSES. The defenses listed here is that

A) Half of what was claimed isn't something that can be provided relief from (Aka, no relief can be granted for the paragraph stating that ICAN is a not for profit organization).
B) They did respond to the FOIA by denying the FOIA under the exemptions
C) The documents in the FOIA are exempt from release.

It's important to also note that in multiple of their responses, they indicate that the judge should referer to the references documents in full, which indicates that ICANN was only providing partial documents to fit their case. The assumption here is that HHS provided the full emails/FOIA/Letters as part of their defense. These were never entered into the court register so I could not obtain them.

The final document is the Stipulation and Order of Voluntary Dismissal. This document says that both parties agree that the matter is now resolved. The indication of resolution is the response to the FOIA from the HHS which states that it could not find any records related to the search.

Here are the important takeaways.

No one lost any lawsuit, despite the multiple claims that they lost the lawsuit. The lawsuit was resolved and closed before a judge was required, and the lawsuit was only regarding an FOIA request, not regarding their failure to conduct a search.

The lack of a response to the FOIA does not indicate that no safety studies are done (as that was not a part of the search). The search only asked "Any and all reports transmitted to the committee on Energy and Commerce of the House of Representatives and the Committee on Labor and Human Resources of the Senate by the Secretary of HHS pursuant to 42 U.S.C 300aa-27(c)"

Most places who deal with regular FOIA requests understand that a response of "We couldn't find any" doesn't indicate that none of it exists, just that none could be found. It's like going to a library and trying to find a book on a certain subject. Just because you couldn't find that book doesn't mean it doesn't exist, just that it wasn't able to be found.

The documents in the FOIA request could be classified (which is likely for reports of this nature) could be labeled under a different name, or could be held by a different office. For example, if the HHS secretary delegated the task to the CDC (who does the safety studies anyways) and the CDC sent the report directly, this FOIA request wouldn't return any responses.

There are a ton of ways to interpret the response, and I'm not going to indicate which direction anyone should interpret it. The only thing that I will point out is that ICAN has been misleading and untruthful about the entire thing."

originally posted by: Pardon?
Correct me if I'm wrong but it certainly looks like this case has been dismissed and not won or lost by anyone.
Unless you count losing as having a case dismissed, in which case Kennedy lost.

Or have I lost my ability to read?
...

The goal of this case was for the government to produce the records of these reports... Since there are no records, what else did you think would happen?... The government had to admit that there are no records of these reports, not even indexes anywhere. Yes, this is a win because it shows that there have been no records of these reports having been sent to the appropiate House and Senate committees.

This was a VOLUNTARY DISMISSAL and an agreement between both parties because if the government can't find the records, nor indexes of the records, then they can't provide them, can they?...

When it comes to this argument, you have lost your reading comprehension, yes. More so since you keep on claiming "this is bs from the anti-vaxxers." The only BS comes from people like you, who time and time again want to dismiss cases, and research that destroys your argument.

If these reports had been sent to the appropiate House and Senate committees then there would be records, or at least indexes showing such reports were sent. But there is nothing.

If only some records of the reports were missing, then one could say "those reports/indexes were misplaced." But there are no records, or indexes of reports whatsoever having been sent to either House or Senate committee for the past 32 years.

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

You haven't read what I posted have you?
I suggest you do.

Then when you have try to respond with a more credible reply.

a reply to: Pardon?

You haven't read what i posted have you?
I suggest you do.

Then when you have, try to respond with a more credible reply...

a reply to: ElectricUniverse

Right at "one second till midnight"... Right before SHTF... Before they go downstairs to the DUMBs...
They'll have full admittance..."yeah we've been killing your kids" etc...
Safe and sound as the surface dwellers go into absolute chaos...