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Thomas Paine & John Locke Liberal Heroes.

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posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 06:50 AM
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How times have changed.

The very birth of The U.S. gained from independence from Britain, had in it's foundation in the works of two British Liberal Heroes John Locke and Thomas Paine.

Their anti monarchist writing , monarchists being of a right wing persuasion more generally, gained increased popularity with those colonists who wanted to break away from The Mother Country.

So yes, America was born on Liberal thinking. the very thinking that now insights much hatred with many members of ATS.

Think about it.




posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 06:54 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong


The sad reality is most people couldn't even tell you why he is referred to as 'The Father of the American Revolution' without looking it up.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 06:56 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong

Funny then how the liberals seem to have wanted a monarchy of the Clintons.

Or would have pissed themselves with glee if they could have kept Obama.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 06:57 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong

I don't think the Liberals of Yesteryear are the same Liberals of Today. For one they didn't believe they could be a dog one day and a 5 year old boy the next. I think Liberalism as we perceive it now has changed, don't you?



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 06:58 AM
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originally posted by: watchitburn
Funny then how the liberals seem to have wanted a monarchy of the Clintons.


That would have been unheard of in American politics.


If we never had the Adams's, Roosevelts, Kennedys or Bushs.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:01 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong

I have come to learn that most American's actually don't see liberalism the way that we in this part of the world do. They would call the works of Locke and Paine "Classical liberalism" or even "Libertarianism". For most the world liberalism is a ideology about protection and promoting the freedom of all individuals regardless of race/sexuality/age/culture/social status and so on though democratically elected government implementing legislation to promote this. Now sure some oppose this because they believe that government can (and ok it does at times) restrict liberty.

The issue I think honestly when I am reading the comments made by some members particularly on this site is that they just don't know what a liberal is. Someone once told them it was a dirty word, that "they", the liberals are the bad guys. I honestly just read this on another thread by a member who I won't name but it illustrates my point I think...



The left consist of antifa, BLM, LGBTQ, illegal aliens and muslims.


They seem to have this twisted idea that its some kind of evil boogyman, its full of commies, Muslim hippies who are going to be looking at your kids junk any time he uses a urinal......

If you actually think about it, its a stroke of unintentional genius from the right, turn the very ideology that calls for freedom and twist it into something rotten. I bet that rather a lot of members on this site who rant and rave about the "libtards" actually have no idea that they are taking a huge crap on the very ideological foundation that their country is built on. Madness!

I am a liberal, I am a liberal in the classical sense of the word.

Proud of it to.

edit on 31-10-2018 by OtherSideOfTheCoin because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:02 AM
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a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

As much as I liked JFK (granted my perception is how history portrays him), his campaign pretty much invented modern day dirty politics.

As for your comment on Thomas Paine. I don't see why anyone would need to Google why he is considered the father of American Revolution.

If I named my kid Revolution, I would be too.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:03 AM
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originally posted by: CriticalStinker
As for your comment on Thomas Paine. I don't see why anyone would need to Google why he is considered the father of American Revolution.

If I named my kid Revolution, I would be too.


I concede to your sound wisdom.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:07 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin


I have come to learn that most American's actually don't see liberalism the way that we in this part of the world do. They would call the works of Locke and Paine "Classical liberalism" or even "Libertarianism". For most the world liberalism is a ideology about protection and promoting the freedom of all individuals regardless of race/sexuality/age/culture/social status and so on though democratically elected government implementing legislation to promote this. Now sure some oppose this because they believe that government can (and ok it does at times) restrict liberty.


I'm going to say this from my heart, and please understand I'm not trying to be cheeky.

While there are many in America with a perverted grasp of the left and liberalism in general, I wouldn't use the UK as a model.

While the American left champions often times goals that aren't in line with the true platform of liberalism.... I'd say the country of speech police and permits for their TV's and Knives could at least take a few pointers from their little brothers across the pond.

We all have things we can learn from each other I suppose.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:09 AM
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a reply to: CriticalStinker

I totally agree, I am not using the UK though as an example I am just saying that quite a few Americans have this perverted view of what liberalism actually is.

There are very few places in the world (if any) that have actually got liberalism right.

Doesn't make it a bad idea, doesn't mean its not a goal worth pursuing.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:14 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

I think it needs to take a good hard look at it's roots and remember liberty, and focus on that. If we champion the liberty of all citizens above all, I think we can look at each issue as it arises with Common Sense. (Anyone see what I did there?)

At the end of the day, the state was never intended (under western liberalism), to be a parent state looking at citizens as children.

Beyond saying that in terms of programs, what I mean is the decision making should be done more by individuals rather than the state.

Not to sound like a hippy, but if there is a plant you can grow and get medicinal benefits from, the state should never be aloud to govern against such.... Even if most people just use it for enjoyment. That is pretty much accepted in all western democracies. Once a state deems themselves fit to control your mind to the point you aren't aloud to alter it, you should wonder what their motives are, and everything they've taught you.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:18 AM
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Here is what Americans think liberalism is "The few French and Spanish settlements of colonial America followed the European Catholic charity traditions of aiding the poor through almsgiving, shelter, health care, and so on, while English colonists imported the harsher Elizabethan Poor Laws and the Protestant Work Ethic, which equated work with morality and deemed the poor immoral, denying them any kind of charity unless they worked".


socialwork.oxfordre.com...

I think this attitude has permeated society in the US anyway til this very day. I in fact kinda believe it to be true as well. All the isms today are excuses not to contribute. Thats just my opinion though. It may not be true but i have not seen any imperical evidence to assuage my inherited prejudices.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:23 AM
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originally posted by: alldaylong
How times have changed.

The very birth of The U.S. gained from independence from Britain, had in it's foundation in the works of two British Liberal Heroes John Locke and Thomas Paine.

Their anti monarchist writing , monarchists being of a right wing persuasion more generally, gained increased popularity with those colonists who wanted to break away from The Mother Country.

So yes, America was born on Liberal thinking. the very thinking that now insights much hatred with many members of ATS.

Think about it.


You are so right!

A likely reason for that is the efforts of clowns such as Rush Limbaugh on the air with pre-Trump expressions of hatred and intolerance for "liberals".

Orwell observed that once the language is corrupted, what follows is the corruption of thought processes. That is, if the meanings of words are changed and confused, thought processes become changed and confused.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:27 AM
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Liberals want regulations and laws and never ending taxes to control every aspect of your life.

The USA was born out of people willing to give their life to escape laws and taxes.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:28 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong

And you think John Locke would be in the Democrat party of today? Hilarious. What do you think Locke would say about the welfare 'rights' of today?



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:38 AM
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originally posted by: watchitburn
a reply to: alldaylong

Funny then how the liberals seem to have wanted a monarchy of the Clintons.

Or would have pissed themselves with glee if they could have kept Obama.
watchit....you are a heavy hitter brother

Well written.....your grade is A plus plus plus
edit on 31-10-2018 by GBP/JPY because: IN THE FINE TEXAS TRADITION

edit on 31-10-2018 by GBP/JPY because: IN THE FINE TEXAS TRADITION



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:40 AM
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a reply to: alldaylong

I'm a classical liberal who's doesn't support the democrats. I'm still trying to understand how your 300+ year comparison is relatable to our current climate politically.

The far left has very little to do with those great thinkers and I'm sure they would refute many of their ideas if they were alive today.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:41 AM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
Liberals want regulations and laws and never ending taxes to control every aspect of your life.

The USA was born out of people willing to give their life to escape laws and taxes.


Modern day Dems and Repubs both want regulations written in favor of those who donate to their campaigns. Both parties are happy to have their special interests plunder the US Treasury. It's call fascism, socialism for the corporations.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:45 AM
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I think that the idea of liberalism having changed is pretty much right on the money.

It's been hijacked to secure the governance of our countries for the ruling elite.

People like Paine and Locke are, to borrow a phrase from the modern liberal elite, Pale, Stale and Male.

Liberalism these days is about defending the status quo by making big issues out of minor things rather than tackling the big issues.

That's not to overly defend Conservatism, either. They are just as stale and, to use the US as an example, I would bet proper money on the main rump of the Reublican party being horrified and shocked that Trump got the nomination rather than another of the grey suit brigade.



posted on Oct, 31 2018 @ 07:47 AM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
The USA was born out of people willing to give their life to escape laws and taxes.


And where did we end up now that both parties continually pass more laws and do nothing about curtailing spending?




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