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ending the stupid. From my perspective.

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posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:21 PM
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originally posted by: Swills
I miss the good old ATS days where we speculated on the Mason conspiracy but them days is over.


I'm trying to keep the gold olde days alive by constantly admitting I am a baby-eating, Luciferian Mason.




posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:26 PM
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a reply to: network dude

You can't help it because the left is bad. The left can't help it because the right started it in the 90's with Clinton. The right can't stop it because the hippies started it in the 60's. (jumped over a few decades in there but you get the point).

At the rate we are going in two thousand years we will be like the Palestinians and Jews. Still trying to destroy each other.

I know I would be more open to conservative ideas if they weren't punctuated with criticism and hate.

In my experience people are usually pretty cool, regardless of ideology. But, the ideological debate has intensified to an extreme. There are always going to be extremes on either side and if that is how we define the other side the agreements will never happen.

Left doesn't equal socialist. Right doesn't equal fascist.

It's been hard to conduct an honest debate on ATS lately without being pushed to those extremes, or pushed to defend those extremes.

It can be hard but the best chance we have is to stick to debating issues not ideologies.

Can't we all just get along?



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:44 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
what, in your opinion, should we do different? Should we just sit back and shut the fluck up when someone claims Trump killed Mexicans and buried them in the Rose garden.....according to anonymous sources?


Yes. Is that any different than people claiming Hillary Clinton was running an international pedophile ring from the basement of a DC pizza restaurant?

People say nonsense, you don't have to refute all of it. That just legitimizes things as one persons feelings/opinion being equal to your facts.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:46 PM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
Why do you think the voters still voted in Trump even with his well known and obvious flaws and downfalls?


Did they? Last I checked he lost the popular vote.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:48 PM
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Does not matter, he´s the President, or isn´t he? Law is law, even if it means your favorite candidate lost. That´s the harsh reality. Accept it.

edit on 29-10-2018 by verschickter because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:53 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Why do you think the voters still voted in Trump even with his well known and obvious flaws and downfalls?


Did they? Last I checked he lost the popular vote.



Yes, it's true the massive populations of NY and CA pushed Hillary over the edge in the popular vote. But everyone knows the electoral system is the method of elections in the USA. Over-winning a state doesn't earn you more electoral votes.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 03:58 PM
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originally posted by: verschickter
Does not matter, he´s the President, or isn´t he? Law is law, even if it means your favorite candidate lost. That´s the harsh reality. Accept it.


Being President and claiming he has a mandate from the masses to justify certain policies are very different things.

And even that brings up some serious questions about the EC and how we vote. I support the concept of the EC but I also think it needs some serious reform right now. 2/3 of the voting power of the EC rests in the hands of 25% of the population due to a seriously out of whack distribution of our representatives.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 04:01 PM
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You are not responsible for your reactions? You are powerless and somehow forced, slave-like, to REACT in a negative way because you PERCEIVE "those terrible people on the left" as being "arrogant" and "smug?"

I don't think you are powerless. I don't think you "can't help yourself" and it's someone else's responsibility to "make" you "not react." If you believe that it is, then you just gave your power away, all of it, to the liberal leftist you so despise. You may think your power is in "reacting" with a "punch down" but it isn't. Anger and outrage make the debate (if you can call it that) coarser, less factual and logical, and, as you've implied, more "stupid.'

"If you just did what I wanted, and said what I wanted, and weren't so smug and arrogant, I wouldn't have to beat you!"

That's not a healthy way of thinking, network dude, for anybody on any side. I don't mean that in an offensive way, either, as I am guilty of times at getting stupid-mad and reacting too!!!

What if, now follow me here, the person on the "other side" doesn't see themselves as being a "smug" and "arrogant asshole?" What if they are just, well, just like YOU? What if, when you react to them, they see you being a "dick" and then THEY react, because you MADE THEM? Does that sound like a good cycle? Well then, what if they said YOU were the one who was responsible for THEIR reactions, and YOU had to change or they would continue to react hurtfully???

Do you see what I'm saying here?

Only YOU have the power to change yourself, not me or whomever you have labeled as smug, arrogant and asshole-ish, and that's it. Period. Give that power away at your own peril, and don't tell me you aren't responsible for your own actions and reactions afterwards, because no matter what, they are yours and no one made you be that way.

(oooh she's sooooo smug! What a b**** she is!!
)

Who benefits from pushing your buttons and helping you PERCEIVE the "other side" as being "smug, arrogant assholes?" Could it be the same people that benefit from ginning up that anger, because "whoever is angriest, votes?" are the ones helping to frame things/events/people so that YOU PERCEIVE them to be "those people who make me mad?" There are people spending millions of dollars to control people who react.



And to be fair, we all react. We all do. I left ATS for a long period of time because I was ganged up on by people I like and even joked around with a lot or had a good relationship, I thought, over a thread I wrote.

I can't say I'm fully back, but I finally put an avatar up again and wrote a short story. I chose to walk away in part because my feelings were hurt by folks here on the right, I didn't deserve what was thrown at me, and the thing I was calling out, in my own eyes, was what any "rational" human being would also see if I could just point out the facts...

I was wrong to think it would be easy.

(That's always the trap though, isn't it?)



I wish you peace and peace of mind. I wish you a way out of the outrage loop. And I wish that for myself as well.

The only path I know for that is forgiveness. Even if the other side doesn't ask for it and isn't sorry, forgive them, not because their opinions are correct or their attitudes are awesome, but because you have the POWER to do that, to break the chain, to exorcise the anger and rise above "the stupid." It is what I try to do, in my very human and imperfect way.




posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 04:02 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan
"lol".


jjkenobi: Why do you think the voters still voted in Trump even with his well known and obvious flaws and downfalls?
Aazadan: Did they? Last I checked he lost the popular vote.
verschickter: Does not matter, he´s the President, or isn´t he? Law is law, even if it means your favorite candidate lost. That´s the harsh reality. Accept it.
Aazadan: Being President and claiming he has a mandate from the masses to justify certain policies are very different things.


jjkenobi did not claim that. All he wrote was "voters still voted in Trump".
Then you start talking about how he didn´t win the popular vote.

Can you see it?



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 05:05 PM
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a reply to: network dude

Most of the division I see is online or in the media or in DC. Hate usually ends up eating itself. I myself am the type of person that if I don't like you I will still stop and help you even if we have had harsh words. I try to be that way online.
I realized a long time ago that some people are just a-holes and that is normal for them. Its kind of like an insane person thinking they are sane.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 05:10 PM
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originally posted by: verschickter
jjkenobi did not claim that. All he wrote was "voters still voted in Trump".
Then you start talking about how he didn´t win the popular vote.

Can you see it?



Yes, I can see it.

But, what I responded to is first that the people did not vote in Trump, he lost the popular election. The EC voted Trump in because he still won according to those rules, but that's hardly due to the will of the people.

And the fact remains, Trump did not win the popular vote. That is a fact. It is not a subjective fact, or an alternative fact, or a lie. Democrats have won the popular vote in 6 of the last 7 Presidential elections. They have only actually had someone in office for 4 of those.

That goes back to something I said in my other post. I support the concept of the Electoral College, but the EC as it currently stands is broken.
edit on 29-10-2018 by Aazadan because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 06:04 PM
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originally posted by: jjkenobi
Yes, it's true the massive populations of NY and CA pushed Hillary over the edge in the popular vote. But everyone knows the electoral system is the method of elections in the USA. Over-winning a state doesn't earn you more electoral votes.


45% of the population, consisting of the states of California, Texas, Florida, New York, Illinois, Pennsylvania, Ohio, Georgia, North Carolina, and Michigan only control a combined 24% of total electoral votes.

The remaining 55% of the population controls 76% of the votes.

I'm fully supportive of the idea that it shouldn't be a purely popular vote because that results in a situation where small states essentially have no say in one branch of government, however those values very clearly indicate that there is a problem with our current method of distribution. This is a growing problem, if nothing changes, by 2040 assuming the population predictions are accurate, 1/3 of the population will control 2/3 of the electoral vote.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 06:29 PM
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I blame social media.

I said in another post that if you go back 20 years the only way you see extreme either left or right was with people handing out fliers that anyone would look at and think what a bunch of extremist idiots. Today though if anyone goes on line that might be moderate and looks for things that reflect their opinion they are now driven down paths that erode into extremist ideals. Even AI search engines help in ever trying to provide what it deems important to you based on past history, so you reach a point that all you see is far left/right views.

Add in news media has also stopped being "news" and is now opinion based labeled as real news that works pretty much the same as the AI search engines to get the most views no matter what. Lastly add in Hollywood that will forever not forget they lost and will use all the power and money they have to fix it...



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 06:35 PM
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a reply to: Xtrozero


A few years ago I would have laughed at what you said... but over the last 2 years seeing people swear by stories passed around on social media that have been 100% debunked (right or left), well lets just say I am in favor of the death penalty for social media.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 06:43 PM
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originally posted by: network dude
as I said, if I just unplug, all I have done is silenced my already insignificant voice. If I try to enact change, I can at least say I tried.


Your voice is already silenced. You are not advancing a conversation or proposing new ideas. You are sitting on an insignificant internet forum, talking to people who are just as entrenched in their ideas as you are in yours. I used to think like you do, that maybe people would argue in good faith, and I would convince them to my point of view, or that they would convince me to theirs. But, it rarely happened.

However, something I've come to realize after having spent literally my entire life arguing on internet forums, is that the very act of doing so ensures that no one will hear what I have to say. It doesn't matter where you're writing your opinions: Facebook, Twitter, Gab, Voat, Reddit, Digg, ATS, or so on, it's a fundamental failing of the medium. Everyone is an anonymous writer without any sorts of verifiable credentials for the topic they're writing on.

If you want people to listen to what you have to say you have two options:
1. Become an expert in a field, write your opinions publicly, and gain support for them.
2. Become a politician, and make policy guided by your views, no matter what they are. People will either support or oppose them.

Those are the only two ways to enact change. People in the trenches are going to argue no matter what the idea presented is, and they're going to be antagonistic towards each other. Anything people write in such mediums is also low impact.

If you want to squabble on forums that's fine, but that's not having a voice, that's just entertainment. A voice is something that has impact. More importantly, arguing on forums is purely opinion based, even something that is sourced is merely sourcing an authority figures opinion. If you want to influence a conversation you need to be the person people quote, not the person quoting others.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 06:54 PM
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originally posted by: odzeandennz
It started as a well written rational plea for discussion... Then by paragraph 3, it became another left bashing, mea culpa, divisive thread, praising trump....

Take the stick out your eyes before noticing specs of dusts in other people' eyes.

These threads pop up every time trump screams the blame on others... The followers follow. Yet never hold the leader of the country accountable for anything.

Isn't it weird how it's always someone else to blame? Always...?

The smug arrogant a holes on the left got worse, whilst the pure noble and virtuous on the right got more 'right'?

What are you talking about? How can someone so blatantly point the blame on 'the left' when the president of the free world spews more trash out of his mouth more than any other?


You can try to spin and avoid all you like. The complete snip show we are witnessing is 100% driven by the leftist idiots who simply can't get over losing power and with that the control of other people's lives. I know this to be true because the hate would stop completely (except for the usual fringes of society, the 1 in 1000 idiots) , the moment the left stopped the nonsense and sheer hypocrisy day after day after day.

It's been over 2 years of childish behaviour from the left. Try stopping it. One thing that would help is to turn off CNN and MSNBC and stop reading WaPo and NYT. You've been mugged off.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 07:05 PM
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a reply to: Aazadan

There is no problem with with highly populated states not having power proportional to population. It's how it should be. The Electoral College is genius and stops just a few states controlling Federal Govt. It reduces the danger of a 'Hunger Games' society, with just a few cities ruling over the populace.
This popular vote nonsense is probably amongst the most nauseating whining we've heard over the last 2 years. Can't win, so change the rules so you can, instead of trying to appeal to more states.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 07:30 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: network dude
what, in your opinion, should we do different? Should we just sit back and shut the fluck up when someone claims Trump killed Mexicans and buried them in the Rose garden.....according to anonymous sources?


Yes. Is that any different than people claiming Hillary Clinton was running an international pedophile ring from the basement of a DC pizza restaurant?

People say nonsense, you don't have to refute all of it. That just legitimizes things as one persons feelings/opinion being equal to your facts.


see, that's just it. I didn't claim to know anything about her, Podesta, or any pedophile ring, and lots of others didn't either. But it's an easy A for you to just make that claim. How in the world could there be a conversation based on that mindset? I'll just assume you are a brain dead liberal with no original thought. Then we can skip all the chit chat.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 07:31 PM
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originally posted by: Aazadan

originally posted by: jjkenobi
Why do you think the voters still voted in Trump even with his well known and obvious flaws and downfalls?


Did they? Last I checked he lost the popular vote.


Let.....it.......go.



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 07:40 PM
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originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: Aazadan

There is no problem with with highly populated states not having power proportional to population. It's how it should be. The Electoral College is genius and stops just a few states controlling Federal Govt. It reduces the danger of a 'Hunger Games' society, with just a few cities ruling over the populace.
This popular vote nonsense is probably amongst the most nauseating whining we've heard over the last 2 years. Can't win, so change the rules so you can, instead of trying to appeal to more states.


You clearly did not read what I wrote. I said I support the idea of an electoral college. However, I also said that it is currently out of balance. 45% of the population controls only 24% of the vote, if we want to extend that to the 12 largest states, they have 50% of the population but only 29% of the vote. Does that make sense to you? You say that what should matter more is having more states? Well, the 25 smallest states, have 24% of the population but 42% of the vote.

This is not fair, Democrats have won the popular vote in 6 out of the last 7 elections, but only been in office for 4 out of those 7 terms, but we are seeing it play out in the other branches of government as well.

22 out of 100 Senators represent half the population. Most recently, the Kavanaugh confirmation was passed by 52 Senators representing 42% of the population. Despite only truly winning 1 of the last 7 Presidential terms, Republicans have appointed 4 of the last 8 Supreme Court justices. In the 2016 election, the majority in the house should have granted Republicans +6 seats, but due to districting granted them +44 seats.

It is currently a tyranny of the minority. This made a lot more sense before urbanization, but currently 57% of the US population lives in cities, yet that population has very little representation, less than 15% of congressional districts make up the 57% of population that live in cities. Austin Texas for example, despite being a city of 2 million people, making up 1/14 of the state population in a state that has 36 representatives doesn't have even a single representative in Congress.




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