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Trump says deadly Pittsburgh synagogue attack would have been different with armed guard

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posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 11:36 PM
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a reply to: luthier
Yeah. Not much urban stuff in Vermont, because not much urban. Makes direct comparisons tricky. But.

The state's violent crime rate rose by 15.1 percent, third most compared with other states.

www.burlingtonfreepress.com...

Couple years old.
edit on 10/27/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 11:49 PM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: luthier
Yeah. Not much urban stuff in Vermont, because not much urban. But.

The state's violent crime rate rose by 15.1 percent, third most compared with other states.

www.burlingtonfreepress.com...


Phage. You are a science man. 15 percent of what number? 200? We had two extra bar fights?

Now we also take in refugees like crazy. Which like Sweden when the population is low has a larger impact. This is circumstantial. Not refugee blaming but, understanding these people have a lot of trauma. Somali and east Asian refugees who have seen horrible violence.

We also have long winters and the fargo syndrome.


But 15 percent of 200 isn't really the same as 15 percent of 3000. While the per capita math may be the same, human interaction is not. One bar fight can throw off vermont's violent crime numbers for a year.

Vermont is what it is or possibly was if its changing because of culture and sparse population. Largest city is 40k. Nobody fuming in traffic...and bad drivers get weeded out every winter.

Cities make sense to have tight controls on fire arm safety. It's a numbers game.

Where I live the cops may be 45 minutes if it isn't snowing..

The US is great. The 10th amendment should work better it's broken.

I agree people are silly about guns. But it's on both sides.

Psychopathy isnt cured by taking guns away..its cured by nor creating the psychopath. If you do spot someone with no empathy its good to have paths to help them cope with being different and having the best life they can.

My point is nuts will do bad stuff without guns.

Without nuts guns don't do bad things.

We should focus on being better people not every excuse of why we aren't.
edit on 27-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 11:55 PM
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a reply to: luthier




Vermont is what it is or possibly was if its changing because of culture and sparse population. Largest city is 40k. Nobody fuming in traffic...and bad drivers get weeded out every winter.


Exactly my point. It's a very different place than a good part of the US. Just like Hawaii is.
To attribute a low crime rate to easy access to guns is somewhat disingenuous.

My point is is that because of the 2nd amendment, guns will never be taken away from people in general and and don't think they should be. But I don't think everyone going armed is a solution. There's a reason you had to turn your gun in when you came into Dodge.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:08 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: luthier




Vermont is what it is or possibly was if its changing because of culture and sparse population. Largest city is 40k. Nobody fuming in traffic...and bad drivers get weeded out every winter.


Exactly my point. It's a very different place than a good part of the US. Just like Hawaii is.
To attribute a low crime rate to easy access to guns is somewhat disingenuous.

My point is is that because of the 2nd amendment, guns will never be taken away from people in general and and don't think they should be. But I don't think everyone going armed is a solution. There's a reason you had to turn your gun in when you came into Dodge.



Sure I think you would see I agree arming people especially at a place you are supposed to be having spiritual practice, is a terribly lazy solution to a problem. It could become a necessity.


However, the maniac that would do that probably would do that some other way. This is why you don't see homicide numbers change that much. Shootings like this as often and sad as they happen are not a large percentage of homicides. Gang members just like in London or Massachusetts will still stab and kill. I am not aware of any nation drastically changing homicide rates with clear correlation to fire arm bans.

If culture can change how people use guns and clearly it can if people in vermont can carry a gun in there pocket and don't kill each other, that is a far more effective solution than to take away self defense.

In my case its bob cats and mountain lions.

But totally on the dense populations need public safety rules on firearms train.

Trust me I have been to an indoor range or two from Texas to Maine and can tell you, many people need weekly training just to have marksmanship, never mind threat assessment skills.

A lot of Rambo types think they are going to save the day with their 2" pocket .40. When in reality they couldn't hit a target 15 ft away.
edit on 28-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:12 AM
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a reply to: luthier




In my case its bob cats and mountain lions.

Not many of them around here. But I saw a cougar in Oregon once. Quite beautiful. It ran away as soon as it saw me. They were more scarce back then.

Yeah. Taking guns away from everyone is not an answer (aside from being illegal and impossible). But I think there should be some way of applying more discretion on who carries them and what sort. Wishful thinking probably.


edit on 10/28/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:18 AM
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originally posted by: Phage
a reply to: luthier




In my case its bob cats and mountain lions.

Not many of them around here. But I saw a cougar in Oregon once. Quite beautiful. Ran away as soon as it saw me. They were more scarce back then.

Yeah. Taking guns away from everyone is not an answer (aside from being illegal). But I think there should be some way of applying more discretion on who carries them. Wishful thinking probably.


Well not wishful thinking. It's your opinion which I feel is valid. People need to talk more without all the crazy tribal narrative.

I am no more right than you, I am probably more leaning on philosophy than hard science just because we have different backgrounds but its debatable. That is how society is supposed to work. It's a social contract.

Total hypothetical.

If my gun flashing in the sun on my hip bothers you when I walk by you on the street, I have the right to say "that's your problem". If I care about society I would question whether its necessary or important enough to make you uncomfortable.

We aren't there anymore. We have weaponized freedom of speech to mean the right to insult you for example.

People need to read some fn' John Locke.
edit on 28-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:22 AM
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a reply to: luthier



If my gun flashing in the sun on my hip bothers you when I walk by you on the street, I have the right to say "that's your problem".

I flew into Paris a few years ago and it creeped me out having armed troops all over the airport. Didn't make me feel safe at all. But I guess we can get used to anything.

Including mass murder?

Nah.


I should add that I am somewhat familiar with guns, hunting guns. So they, in themselves do not frighten me.

edit on 10/28/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:29 AM
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a reply to: Phage

I hope you understand I was saying "that's your problem" isnt a great way to deal with your neighbors. Even if it's your right.


Unfortunately everywhere I have lived in the last 20 years including vermont has swat team looking cops with full body armor etc..

But like I said trading guns for knives isnt a great solution. Or guns for bombs, trucks, poisons etc..

In China and Japan they have mass stabbings in schools. Seriously.

The best solution is to try and fix our social structure.

Do you have any examples of direct correlation of firearms bans and homicide decline?

I don't doubt you will save some people. But so would public transportation. It's always a tough call with rights people currently have and what to do with modernization.

I agree though gun safety including mental health is a big issue that the left and right should be working on.

People carying in dense spots should be stable and good marksman.

Because the mistake in this case cant be fixed. It's even worse than the smoke blowing over your fence. To late for justice.
edit on 28-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:35 AM
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a reply to: luthier




I hope you understand I was saying "that's your problem" isnt a great way to deal with your neighbors. Even if it's your right.
Totally. And I also agree that it would be my problem. That was part of the point of the anecdote.


Do you have any examples of direct correlation of firearms bans and homicide decline?
No. Nor for the converse. It seems that reliable statistics are hard to come by and it seems the government has an aversion to compiling them.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:35 AM
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My cities NE is now the land of ghettolization.Written by a Pakistani. We will be taken over by votes.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:44 AM
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a reply to: Phage

I cant find any numbers either way myself. I have found the UK and Australia don't seem to have been effected in terms of crime rate changes. They appear to follow the trends they were already on.

Again I could be wrong. The zealots that frame these debates don't leave much for honest debate. I support the 2nd but am not ridiculous and understand why NYC doesn't have vermont or Wyoming gun laws.

On the other hand banning guns isn't going to make better children. Better parents do that.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:50 AM
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a reply to: luthier




Better parents do that.


Not necessarily.

I got a late start as a parent and had a lot of time to observe my contemporaries. Often some of the people who seemed like they would be the best parents had horrible children. Some who seemed to be horrible parents had amazing little humans.

And various combinations of the above.

Society and peer groups, and way they deal with aberration (that's a slippery one), have more influence. I think. But in then end, children are people and will do what they will.


Maybe the Mennonites have something.


Nah.

edit on 10/28/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:52 AM
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could armed guards of helped ... well thats a crapshoot if every one was armed still a crapshoot

fact is they are ambushing you the odds of wining a ambush are low thats the entire point of a ambush its hard to fight back



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:57 AM
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a reply to: Phage

I think perhaps your perception of what a good parent is wasnt the same as the reality.


A good parent generally produces a successful child. That requires evolutionary, self correcting, improvisation.

But yes it takes a village as well. When you go to a school with active parents in their kids lives it's a whole different animal than one with careless parents.

As a wrestling and judo coach I have seen some pretty bad schools. They usually have bad parental support.
edit on 28-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 12:59 AM
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a reply to: luthier




A good parent generally produces a successful child. That requires evolutionary, self correcting, improvisation.

Too easy. Circular argument. Or determination after the fact.
Do you think this criminal is the result of bad parenting?

But I wasn't really going for that village thing. I was saying that the influence of parents may not be as all encompassing as you think.
edit on 10/28/2018 by Phage because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:03 AM
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a reply to: Phage

Yes I do. In fact I am positive that childhood home stability and enviornment is the largest factor in people ending up commiting crimes. Either that or I was lied to in college.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:03 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Sociology major?



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:05 AM
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a reply to: Phage

Philosophy with criminal justice minor.. that's how I became a carpenter.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:07 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Awesome.

I started with hard science. They don't call it hard for nothing.

But as far as kids go, just recounting my observations.


Ever use koa wood?



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:13 AM
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a reply to: Phage

Oh yeah. On guitar back and sides for acoustic guitars. It's nice because it's a shade tree like Indian rosewood so you don't have to feel so bad using it.

Also beautiful like an opal. Though I have to say there are far better tone woods. It's a bit carboardish on larger guitars like dreadnoughts.

Parents can do the right thing on paper but not for their specific children as well. It's an expirement you don't know the results of until later sometimes.


Even making people aware your child is a bit off comes from being a good parent.




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