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If Trump responsible for Sayoc, Beatles responsible for Manson

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posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 05:33 PM
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edit on 10/27/2018 by Hollowguardian because: --Info Posted prior in the thread, didn't wanna repeat




posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 06:47 PM
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Blaming Trump for Sayoc's actions is just another example of the authoritarian nature of leftist ideology which seeks to control other people right down to the words they say. If they can make such an absurd notion as Trump being responsible because of his words, they can then control what he says and what every other person says. It's just the same as the race card they are so fond of playing.

Trump has called the liberal media the enemy of the people and Democrats obstructionists and liars. That is not only true, but in saying it loud and often he has performed a great service to the people. He has done more to shine a light on the very real villains in American politics than any other President. That is a threat to those that seek ultimate control over the lives of people they see as subjects, not citizens.



posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 06:53 PM
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originally posted by: gortex
a reply to: neutronflux

Trump isn't responsible for the actions of Sayoc but his words are the catalyst for what Sayoc did , with great power comes great responsibility , a reality Trump has failed to grasp.


The media have great power too, as do those in Congress and indeed Hollywood. How do you know it was not the constant hatred and attacks against the President that acted as the catalyst for Sayoc to carry out his fake bombing spree?

Perhaps it is they who need to tone down their rhetoric as the President has said.
edit on 27/10/2018 by UKTruth because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 27 2018 @ 10:44 PM
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originally posted by: anonentity
a reply to: Fools


Manson wrote a couple of songs in the Beach Boys album. The films brought out of the Tate mansion which were in the rafters had a load of Hollywood celebrities in naughty films. The gun used in a couple of the murders was the one Ronald Regan gave to his mate, who gave it to Manson as a gift out on the Ranch. Manson and his girls could hardly sit on their chairs as they were so drugged up at the trial, the whole trial was to keep the # from flying around Hollywood. All defence witnesses were subpoenaed and never called to keep them quiet. He turned down a deal that would have given him eighteen months. Because he never actually killed anyone, he refused the deal. His lawyer was a known Mafia Lawyer. These are just a few things I can remember but they wanted to blame the Beatles, for the Hippies because they were worse than Communism.


I agree, lot of odd kabooki theater going on with the Charles Manson issue. Have you ever read "Ultimate Evil" by Terry Maury?

There was a book I read a while back about Laurel Canyon and the CIA and pop music characters of the late 1960's as well that sort of made me think, "hmmmmm".


An oddity about all of that - to me at least - is that the progressive program seems to be sort of a parallel agenda - like all diiferent but all the same. I have to think about it, but there are many odd similarities in so many areas of these subjects.

So anyway, I am about a pint of home-made vodka into this night so I think I am a bit fuzzy in communicating.
i will try to think harder on this area of things soon.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: neutronflux

Manson wrote songs for the Beach boys, true story.

Even a satellite was not as high as Manson, the guy had too many acid trips, I've got aspergers and took codeine for my broken arm but i don't take the lyrics of my favorite band as an inspiration to insert a USB drive into my arm in an attempt to achieve transhumanism.

The guy was high and unhinged, simple as that.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:02 PM
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Uh, no. Trump is a politician and world leader. The Beatles were, at most, politically-active musicians and entertainers. They were not part of any power structure, unlike Trump. Try again.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 01:55 PM
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originally posted by: IndyFront
Uh, no. Trump is a politician and world leader. The Beatles were, at most, politically-active musicians and entertainers. They were not part of any power structure, unlike Trump. Try again.


You talking about the group claiming to be bigger than Jesus?

Why would Trump be on the hook for the actions of someone criminally insane.

If the Beatles said murder a specific person, they would not be liable in anyway because they are not politicians?

Would you like to quote where Trump told people to go commit mail bombings?

Would you like to quote Trump where he said anything more over the top than other politicians that was an order to commit acts of violence?
edit on 28-10-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 04:17 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
Why would Trump be on the hook for the actions of someone criminally insane.


Same reason Obama, or Hillary, or Bush would be - because they represent the current center of power in US society, which happens to be the most powerful country on earth by a WIDE margin with their fingers in literally almost every single facet of human reality itself. Every stroke of the pen, every decision these people make, DIRECTLY affects you. These people are inherently dangerous because of the sheer amount of power they wield over you and me and every other average citizen. We let it get out of control under Bush and Obama, and look at the sheer staggering level of power that has been concentrated into the hands of the Executive Branch and the White House. THIS IS #ING DANGEROUS. The amount to which our institutional foundations have been utterly #ing RAPED is DIZZYING. And anyone who tells you this isn't a bipartisan issue - that it is exclusively the Republicans/Trump or Democrats/Obama is a DISINFORMATION AGENT out to ENSLAVE YOUR MIND. Literally! They DON'T WANT you to broaden your horizons. They DON'T WANT you to DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH. Look it up! Obama essentially ignored the FBI and Intelligence Community warning him about Russia and others trying to inhibit the election. Look it up! Donald Trump got a PHONE CALL from Bill Clinton TWO WEEKS before announcing his Presidential campaign.

It's all about DIVIDE and CONQUER. You think these people give a rat's ASS about you or me? WAKE UP!


If the Beatles said murder a specific person, they would not be liable in anyway because they are not politicians?


They did not, so this is a fallacy and strawman.


Would you like to quote where Trump told people to go commit mail bombings?


He did say absurd falsehoods about the targets, and directed people to commit political violence. So, indirectly, he did.


Would you like to quote Trump where he said anything more over the top than other politicians that was an order to commit acts of violence?


Past Presidents are renown for their over the top statements, like Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech that was OOM more terrifying than anything Trump has said. Trump is just stupid, and his responsibility lies in his abhorrently flapdoodling buffoonery. He didn't INTEND for these deliveries to happen, but they DID, and as a DIRECT RESULT of his flamboyant rhetoric.
edit on 28-10-2018 by IndyFront because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 04:24 PM
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a reply to: neutronflux

Yes and great comparison. And they really don't understand how this wasn't the big one. And are their collective selves going to take responsibility for Pittsburg?



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 05:10 PM
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a reply to: IndyFront

You


Same reason Obama, or Hillary, or Bush would be - because they represent the current center of power in US society,


WTF?

The only person that is responsible for me is me.

They don’t get to dictate society to me. They can legislate laws that create systems of apprehension and punishment. I chose my actions.

Is it different for you?

You


He did say absurd falsehoods about the targets, and directed people to commit political violence. So, indirectly, he did.


Is not a response to:

Would you like to quote Trump where he said anything more over the top than other politicians that was an order to commit acts of violence?

So, please cite a quote that Trump directed people to commit physical violence.



edit on 28-10-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 05:11 PM
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this is such a low IQ argument to even be having

is Trump responsible for some nut job is Clinton or Bernie?

give me a fricken break people



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 05:23 PM
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a reply to: IndyFront

By the way, I never said the Beatles owned Mansion. Did I. The same way Trump doesn’t own Sayoc. Any narrative pushed by the main stream media Trump “owns” Sayoc can be worded as...



DISINFORMATION AGENT out to ENSLAVE YOUR MIND.


Unless you can cite a specific quote Trump was pushing for murder and physical violence? Instead of flexing political power.



posted on Oct, 28 2018 @ 11:44 PM
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originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: IndyFront

By the way, I never said the Beatles owned Mansion. Did I. The same way Trump doesn’t own Sayoc. Any narrative pushed by the main stream media Trump “owns” Sayoc can be worded as...


Are you the OP?



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 07:03 AM
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originally posted by: IndyFront

originally posted by: neutronflux
a reply to: IndyFront

By the way, I never said the Beatles owned Mansion. Did I. The same way Trump doesn’t own Sayoc. Any narrative pushed by the main stream media Trump “owns” Sayoc can be worded as...


Are you the OP?


Is nuance or tounge and cheek lost on you.

The opening post:
“Yes, Dems and Republicans both invoke and joke about “cage match fighting” or “pit fighting” to forge an image of their party’s resolve.

However, when has Trump called for terrorist acts? Please quote any right leaning individual here at ATS with any morals that shares Sayoc’s views of terrorist acts?

I’ll straight up ask, are the Beatles responsible for the Manson murders. Same logic as Trump is responsible for Sayoc. “

Now quote where I said the Beatles “own” Mansion.

The Trump / Beatles comparison is to show how ridiculous it is to try to pin Trumps’s call to political action on inspiring an idiot’s violent actions.

And the irony is you bought into the main stream media’s propaganda Trump is responsible for Sayoc while having the nerve to post:


that it is exclusively the Republicans/Trump or Democrats/Obama is a DISINFORMATION AGENT out to ENSLAVE YOUR MIND.


Who do you think the main stream media, Facebook, Google willing work with and widely support? Trump or the progressive left?

edit on 29-10-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed

edit on 29-10-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed

edit on 29-10-2018 by neutronflux because: Added and fixed



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 01:21 PM
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I read the title of the thread, and personally thought it should read:

"If Trump responsible for Sayoc, Beatles responsible for Manson, and the other Manson responsible for Columbine."



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 08:54 PM
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originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: neutronflux

Manson was inspired by the Beatles. Yes. Sayoc was inspired by Trump. Yes.
Does that make them responsible? No. But we all know Lennon got killed in the end. Trump?


Lennon was killed by an obsessive fan.
Nothing to do with rhetoric or manson.


Try again



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 09:22 PM
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originally posted by: Peeple
a reply to: lakenheath24

Why is it out of order? You embrace violence you get violence. Reap what you sow and all of that.


John Lennon most certainly did not embrace violence! He was the one, you might remember, who said "All you need is love." And when he sang "But when you talk about destruction, don't you know that you can count me OUT!"



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 09:38 PM
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originally posted by: MayRenee
a reply to: neutronflux

trump has employed the tactic of crowd coercion. Please read: Adolf Hitler was a monster. The revolution he spawned changed the world landscape forever. But have you ever wondered how he did it? How did Hitler convince 70 million rational people to engage in horrible atrocities and wage war against the world? Although his agenda was decidedly negative, Hitler was a master of the science of coercion. Through the use of his speeches and propaganda, he was able to bend the will of ordinary people into submission and create an obedient army ready to carry out his orders, no matter how absurd they might be. Hitler’s formula for coercion of a group of people was very simple. He discussed it at length in his book Mein Kampf:

1. Keep the dogma simple. Make only 1 or 2 points.

2. Be forthright and powerfully direct. Speak only in the telling or ordering mode.

Hitler3. As much as possible, reduce concepts down into stereotypes which are black and white.

4. Speak to people’s emotions and stir them constantly.

5. Use lots of repetition; repeat your points over and over again.

6. Forget literary beauty, scientific reasoning, balance, or novelty.

7. Focus solely on convincing people and creating zealots.

8. Find slogans which can be used to drive the movement forward.

Most of Hitler’s inspiration came from a social psychologist by the name of Gustave Le Bon, who published several works and was considered an authority on the psychology of crowds. Le Bon posited that once individuals came together to form a group, the individual’s will was surrendered to what was perceived to be the will of the group. Their faculties of reasoning were impaired or destroyed, and they entered into a more suggestible state. The larger the group, the easier it was to coerce.

Aside from the general pointers above regarding how to engage in coercion, Hitler also had a very specific structure which he used for all of his speeches in order to capitalize on the susceptibility of the crowd. The first thing he would do is point out the commonality of the people gathered in the crowd so that he could instantly unify the group. The next step would be to identify a threat to that commonality to put the group on edge, and stir up the emotions of fear and anger. The third and most important step was to invoke a higher power, and appoint himself as an agent of that higher power. If the crowd was able to believe this, then the last two steps were easy: give the higher power’s “solution” to that threat to the commonality, and proclaim that carrying out the solution would be a victory for both the commonality and the higher power.

This speech structure was obviously successful to disastrous consequences. Since Hitler’s time, others have utilized the same structure to accomplish coercion for different ends. One of the most notable examples would be Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. His I Have a Dream speech follows this pattern almost perfectly, but to serve a very different purpose. So where can we benefit from this knowledge?

The first application is to identify when others are attempting to engage in coercion. A political campaign is essentially a huge, protracted exercise in coercion, as is advertising and marketing. Being aware of the tools utilized can be helpful to rise above the influence and encourage others to do the same.
Since this method is being used to fufill trump's purpose, he would be responsible for anyone acting out after being affected by these methods.



1. You are way off Goebbels guidelines for propaganda. I would post some links if you would like some recommended reading.

2. He wasn't elected for targeting Jews, he was elected for this and I quote their party's slogan "the Details of how we will bring about change are not the issue. The IMPORTANCE here is WE CAN AND WILL"

Or something close to it.

They promised the people that they would set things right in the country.
Hitler was not elected to "Fuhrer"

You need to research the actual historical accounts abd corresponding translated documentation of events.

I have done 5 biographies, 14 essays and 12 different thesis on the study of Adolf Hitler and the NSDAP (that's Nazi for you people who know only what TV told you about history) since I middle school to college.
You could say I'm an Expert

You are waaay off track of what is the facts and also methodology.

3. 70 million people weren't convinced of anything atrocious.
Nor were they aware of any such activities during the war.

There was supposedly awareness amongst the highranking Nazi SS of the Camps,

But most German citizens were not made aware of any of it, other than that these individuals were being sent to a labor camp or being deported.

The citizens didn't turn a blind eye, the majority were just like CNN watchers, believing what the "Official" story was.

And things were going so good economically they were too busy being grateful for the change that very few stopped to question whether or not those deportees were ok.

4. The Soldiers also were mostly unaware with the exception of border agents, death squads and those that worked in the camps or interacted regularly.

Also you should look into the "Authority Experiment" done many times since the 50's to psychologically explain how to get someone to do something immoral or questionable.

They took actors, put them in a room tied to wires in a chair and then would have ignorant people off the sidewalk turn a knob to electrocute them.

The actors would pretend to be in certain levels of pain.

They also had a lethal setting on the knob, and convinced quite a few people to go that far because they would explain that since the doctor told them to, they weren't at fault for anything that might go wrong or in some lawsuit.
And even explained that it would be the ones who were in control at the top who would suffer blame if any was cast.

This was good enough for most to cause what they believed was excruciatingly horrific levels of pain on a stranger that never did a thing to them.

All for small bills in change.
Chump change.

That's how soldiers and anyone directly involved were convinced and used and also that's how we talked ours into bombing Muslim weddings and mosques.

5.
Trump didn't swindle the American Public.
See this is how the Authority Experiment gets you all, you want to pretend that (people) everyone that supports him did so because of what you twisted into racist xenophobic rhetoric while being racist.

This simply isn't so.
The real reason people voted Trump was because of a lot of hate from the left against anyone who believed different.

He didn't "sway" anyone.
The Leftist leadership did
And so did it's followers with all the online hate calls and name calls...

Also Bernie.
You could of had him.
But your leadership threw him under the bus for Corruption.

Not trying to incite or derail discussion but being only a recent member and new to speaking with you all I feel it necessary to point out that the way you did and continue to talk to those that disagree with you is ALIENATING.

It's like my older brother, let me explain.
We haven't spoke in two years.

He doesn't refuse to speak to me because he's a hateful blue Democrat who thinks I'm an idiot for voting in Hitler.

He refused to speak to me because I Alienated Him by acting like a dick.
Think on this concept
edit on 29-10-2018 by ConspiracyofRavens because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 09:40 PM
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a reply to: Peeple

Sayoc was inspired by his Handlers , " *Alphabet Agencies " , along with the Money and Fame he was Promised If Successful ......



posted on Oct, 29 2018 @ 10:38 PM
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originally posted by: IndyFront

originally posted by: neutronflux
Why would Trump be on the hook for the actions of someone criminally insane.


Same reason Obama, or Hillary, or Bush would be - because they represent the current center of power in US society,


If the Beatles said murder a specific person, they would not be liable in anyway because they are not politicians?


They did not, so this is a fallacy and strawman.


Would you like to quote where Trump told people to go commit mail bombings?


He did say absurd falsehoods about the targets, and directed people to commit political violence. So, indirectly, he did.


Would you like to quote Trump where he said anything more over the top than other politicians that was an order to commit acts of violence?


Past Presidents are renown for their over the top statements, like Bush's "Axis of Evil" speech that was OOM more terrifying than anything Trump has said. Trump is just stupid, and his responsibility lies in his abhorrently flapdoodling buffoonery. He didn't INTEND for these deliveries to happen, but they DID, and as a DIRECT RESULT of his flamboyant rhetoric.



I don't see where you can tie anything as a direct result based on your lack of information and knowledge of the "delivery"

Considering some of the packages were hand delivered by non postal agents and did not have postal stamping that shows it was processed by any postal service.
No ups or USPS marks. But it had postal stamps meaning that it was meant to appear like it was sent in the mail

So how did he hand deliver a package when he didn't have a working car battery for his van or gas money to get up there?

Even private couriers mark packages they handle.
No such sticker or mark on any of the hand delivered ones.

And direct Results is a slippery slope when Hillary is saying "whatever you need to do, do it now. election is only two weeks away"

And without mentioning Maxine's rhetoric let's go with the slogan By ANY MEANS NECESSARY

That's kind of like...encouraging the imagination!

Let's take a historical walk on what "Any Means" tends to cause.

1.Death Camps(because it follows the guidelines)
2.Assassinations(because it fits the guidelines)
3. Rwanda Genocide(that fits the slogan too! The Hutu people just being Blue Democrats)
4. Pogroms in USSR
5. Cartel violence
6. Civil War
7. Rape
8. Murder
9. Home invasion
10. Theft
11. Human Trafficking
12. Nuclear Strikes

Yes, by "Any Means" you are opening the door to... Well anything a dark heart desires.
By "Necessary" it's implied to go as far as you have to in order to successfully accomplish your goals.

Please try to refute what clearly happens when a group is told such words and the responsibility inherent in such rhetoric.

Trump condemned this "mail bombing"
The left leaders and speakers have not condemned anything.

George Soros's Spokeswoman was telling the DEMOCRATIC Leadership to
"Tone Down The RHETORIC"
After he received a bomb.

When one of the Biggest DONORS for BLUE worldwide lays the blame for some nut sending him a bomb on BLUE carpet... You know it wasn't an accident of misspoken words.

He clearly felt that the only reason this happened is because one side has been acting threatening and he got targeted because One Side has taken their rhetoric too far.

2. You were asked to quote Trump and failed to do so. You didn't answer the OPs question.
You need to not only answer the OPs question and provide a quote but you need to provide as many as necessary to prove he "Targeted" each recipient.
Including Robert De Niro.

You list the names and corresponding quote and I will go through the trouble of digging up something they said to single themselves out in return.

If you can find one that Trump said worse about than they and their party implicate themselves for, I will acknowledge and give you a tip of the hat.
A star and maybe buy you a pitcher should we meet.

Until then...



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