It looks like you're using an Ad Blocker.

Please white-list or disable AboveTopSecret.com in your ad-blocking tool.

Thank you.

 

Some features of ATS will be disabled while you continue to use an ad-blocker.

 

President Trump to withdraw from UPU treaty China BTFO

page: 12
38
<< 9  10  11    13 >>

log in

join
share:

posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:16 AM
link   
a reply to: luthier

I already said modern manufacturing will require fewer workers than previously. But it will require more skilled workers than previously, as well. And the economy is still adding those jobs. Both high and low-skilled workers.

It's not a sound bite. It's what the poster said in his previous post. It would never come back. Gone forever. Yet, here we are with over 170,000 jobs that literally came back from off shore just last year. Stop pretending that we have to maintain the status quo or we're doomed. We're literally headed to a cliff, as you know, but you are so petrified by fear of unintended consequences, you'd rather just chug along. "Don't hit the brakes, Casey Jones! Someone in back might spill their drink!"




posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:22 AM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

I already said modern manufacturing will require fewer workers than previously. But it will require more skilled workers than previously, as well. And the economy is still adding those jobs. Both high and low-skilled workers.

It's not a sound bite. It's what the poster said in his previous post. It would never come back. Gone forever. Yet, here we are with over 170,000 jobs that literally came back from off shore just last year. Stop pretending that we have to maintain the status quo or we're doomed. We're literally headed to a cliff, as you know, but you are so petrified by fear of unintended consequences, you'd rather just chug along. "Don't hit the brakes, Casey Jones! Someone in back might spill their drink!"


They are in fact gone forever. Joe Bob on the production line who the conversation is about is not getting his job back. And no there will not be more skilled workers. Lol. That is completely false. (A.I.) we will never return to the volume of jobs during the industrial revolution. Ever.

There aren't hundreds of draftsmen engineers, there is a guy on CAD cutting and pasting from previous work or increasing efficiency etc..

We are never returning to the age of manufacturing of yesterday year level for even engineers...

What people must learn for the future is entrepreneurial creativity. Something the Chinese lack as a whole..

Also nobody has mentioned how opening the market has changed China to be less communist and its people demand more freedom.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:31 AM
link   
a reply to: luthier

With all due respect to the fine Chinese people who hosted my son marvelously by all accounts, my concern lies with the health of the United States economy and workers, and not the liberalization of and rise of a middle class in China at the expense of the US.

Forcing China to open it's markets reciprocally would bring them even greater benefits. After all, their perfectionist policies are an immense burden on their poor consumers out of proportion to whatever our own policies are (according to you).



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:31 AM
link   

originally posted by: luthier


And I personally as well as millions of carpenters in the United states have benefited from lower tool prices than Europe who employs protections for their manufactures. Literally 100's of thousands of machine shops, factories from Chevy to Smith and Wesson have benefitted from cheaper goods which is passed to the consumer.


You have a proper job
hey I'm really impressed You gone right up in my opinions and to be honest I do agree with much of what you say lol. I just think things have gone too far with China and if things can get a bit more balanced then trading with them will be a good thing just like Korea and Japan have become great markets for western goods. You are a carpenter yeah
Very impressed coming from someone in light engineering
See ya in a bit, time for some angle grinding outside before the sun goes down here in England



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:36 AM
link   
a reply to: RadioRobert

If good deeds were the same as good Intentions you would be right. They aren't.

You can't just force the market to get a desired result for the long term.

I am not sure I understand you last remark. Did I say what you implied there?

I just said the law of unintended consequences is scalable to the amount of intervention. The potential for harm is far greater than benefit.

I have history to prove that, it would appear you have rhetoric but I am still listening for an actual idea that comes from some kind of understanding of how markets work rather than how you wished they would work.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:38 AM
link   

originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: luthier


And I personally as well as millions of carpenters in the United states have benefited from lower tool prices than Europe who employs protections for their manufactures. Literally 100's of thousands of machine shops, factories from Chevy to Smith and Wesson have benefitted from cheaper goods which is passed to the consumer.


You have a proper job
hey I'm really impressed You gone right up in my opinions and to be honest I do agree with much of what you say lol. I just think things have gone too far with China and if things can get a bit more balanced then trading with them will be a good thing just like Korea and Japan have become great markets for western goods. You are a carpenter yeah
Very impressed coming from someone in light engineering
See ya in a bit, time for some angle grinding outside before the sun goes down here in England


Lol. Yeah I also have some table top cnc's from China that have saved me years of hand usage.

Yeah we have gone too far.

My point is lets use this metaphor dr says we have a problem we all agree yes we have diabetes, then doc says we are going to cut your ears off and see what happens. Heck he can even use some reasonable arguments based on popular opinions the ears hold insulin, that is what I was told..

Treatment of a problem isn't the same as the reality of the cure.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 12:43 PM
link   
a reply to: luthier

Would you allow Walmart to open a store in a city and sell goods at a loss until it made all the other stores fail, or would you be for market intervention?



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 01:07 PM
link   
Has anyone mentioned the impact on small and medium sized American businesses that use the regular postal system to export retail?

B2B won't be affected, whether its to or from China or anywhere else.

Amazon won't be affected.

Individual purchasers and SMEs will hurt.

You've been sold a pig in a poke again.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 01:28 PM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

Would you allow Walmart to open a store in a city and sell goods at a loss until it made all the other stores fail, or would you be for market intervention?


If only that concept applied at all to reality of markets.

If Walmart had been operating since Richard Nixon in that method, and had become a staple to businesses, particularly small businesses and inventors (whom I know many of including my father) then it would be a very difficult fix.

People should learn to evolve around the market and not get stuck thinking they have to continue a job with no relevance to the future.

Sorry it just isn't as simple as you believe. You are involved in an emotional appeal issue without knowledge of actual working markets and ripple effects from interventions.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 01:36 PM
link   
a reply to: RadioRobert

Also many people seems to be forgetting the stock market 401k's etc. Chinais engrained in all those stock prices.

Let's also not forget there are many options besides playing macho 1980's business man. Competing currencies etc...

Most people who advocate tariffs seem to not really know any other possible less invasive more effect maneuvers.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 04:27 PM
link   
a reply to: luthier

It's emotive to say China heavily subsidizes key strategic industries and operates them at a loss to drive Western companies in those sectors out of business? And we should just ignore it because they've been robber barons for awhile, so who cares?


You are right that foreign tariffs aren't the biggest issue facing the economy. You're right that there are lots of ways to confront China. But I suspect if we talked specifics about IP rights, interest rates, and currency manipulation, you'd be right back to " It's been that way a long time. Let's not change anything because it will send ripples through the market."

You're right that any change sends ripples through the market until it adjusts. It can take years for adjustment. You're wrong that we should sit on our hands and ignore things because it may/will affect consumers during the adjustment.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 04:34 PM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
You are right that foreign tariffs aren't the biggest issue facing the economy. You're right that there are lots of ways to confront China. But I suspect if we talked specifics about IP rights, interest rates, and currency manipulation, you'd be right back to " It's been that way a long time. Let's not change anything because it will send ripples through the market."


If we are going to do anything to/with China it should be addressing currency manipulation and IP theft, tariffs are ineffective since they don't address the root cause of the problems.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 04:51 PM
link   

originally posted by: AugustusMasonicus

originally posted by: RadioRobert
You are right that foreign tariffs aren't the biggest issue facing the economy. You're right that there are lots of ways to confront China. But I suspect if we talked specifics about IP rights, interest rates, and currency manipulation, you'd be right back to " It's been that way a long time. Let's not change anything because it will send ripples through the market."


If we are going to do anything to/with China it should be addressing currency manipulation and IP theft, tariffs are ineffective since they don't address the root cause of the problems.


There are several problems. Those are also problems. Solving IP theft won't stop them from manipulating production to bankrupt Western industry. Stopping currency manipulation would help, but would also ripple through the market. How are we going to do that? Open capital controls to block purchases? Doesn't that ripple through the market? Can't possibly interfere with the market... Go back to the gold standard? Doubt that happens in our lifetimes absent the giant fiat bubble bursting. If that happens we won't care about Chinese currency manipulation.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 05:15 PM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
Solving IP theft won't stop them from manipulating production to bankrupt Western industry.


They can operate at a loss due to currency manipulation, if you combat that then they need to run at a higher gross profit level to maintain their economy.


Stopping currency manipulation would help, but would also ripple through the market. How are we going to do that?


Economically, freezing of assets, preventing them from accessing investment markets, sanctions, etc.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 05:16 PM
link   
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

You don't think any of that is more likely to ripple or start a war than removing USPS subsidies?



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 05:26 PM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
You don't think any of that is more likely to ripple or start a war than removing USPS subsidies?


It wont start a war, the Chinese need us more than we need them.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 05:46 PM
link   
a reply to: AugustusMasonicus

I tend to agree with you. There are lots of places that would love to sell us crap with MFN status.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 05:57 PM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

It's emotive to say China heavily subsidizes key strategic industries and operates them at a loss to drive Western companies in those sectors out of business? And we should just ignore it because they've been robber barons for awhile, so who cares?


You are right that foreign tariffs aren't the biggest issue facing the economy. You're right that there are lots of ways to confront China. But I suspect if we talked specifics about IP rights, interest rates, and currency manipulation, you'd be right back to " It's been that way a long time. Let's not change anything because it will send ripples through the market."

You're right that any change sends ripples through the market until it adjusts. It can take years for adjustment. You're wrong that we should sit on our hands and ignore things because it may/will affect consumers during the adjustment.



Well since you are not me let me explain rather than what you imagine my response to be.


If we are going to cause ripples or tidal waves through the economic system of the world, it should be for long term benefit, not temporary short term political gain.

Without going after the actual US monetary policy and the real massive source of funding China (they finance our debt in un fathomabale numbers almost if not 1.5 trillion) both the moral and practical action against negative trade practice is irrelevant to the self inflicted damage.

However it rallies voters.

My point again is its putting a little bandaid on and keeping the quack dr's in office who created the wound.

I guarantee you Republicans vote tribally for the same scum that created the problem. They don't remember when it came time to fix obama care they all started at each other asking if anyone did their homework...

Until we send a message and vote all the old lifers out nothing at all will change long term and the damage done from tribalization will be negative.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 06:03 PM
link   
a reply to: luthier

Man, if you want to bust up the GOP establishment, you have a friend in me.

But first we can't take on USPS subsidizing Chinese companies because the ripple would be too big, and now you want to take on currency manipulation, the exploding national debt, fiat currencies, etc because tariffs and subsidies are small change. We shouldn't ignore any of them.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 06:14 PM
link   

originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

Man, if you want to bust up the GOP establishment, you have a friend in me.

But first we can't take on USPS subsidizing Chinese companies because the ripple would be too big, and now you want to take on currency manipulation, the exploding national debt, fiat currencies, etc because tariffs and subsidies are small change. We shouldn't ignore any of them.



Sure. We also shouldn't have a dictator even if he does the right thing. The president is not supposed to be an authoritarian power.

The reason..because the people in Congress are supposed to represent the people and businesses of their districts. The system being broken doesn't mean the president gets to be a dictator. I was against Bush and Obama over reach as well.

Our internal problems should be the focus of we have better reps and senators they will better represent the views of the public who will better inform what actions should be taken.

Otherwise it's just crooks vs crooks.




top topics



 
38
<< 9  10  11    13 >>

log in

join