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President Trump to withdraw from UPU treaty China BTFO

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posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 06:41 AM
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originally posted by: burdman30ott6
a reply to: luthier

Tariffs are capitalist on the national protection level. You're stuck in the Ruth of "globalism is probably inevitable so we should always set policies based on the globalist goals." My position is that this country didn't become great doing what was best for the world, we became great by doing what was best for the USA, period. Tariffs, abandonment of trade deals that don't maximize US gains, policies which put US manufacturing above all others, and exiting agreements like the UPU improve this country's economy and strengthen the dollar.


Tariffs are not capitalist. They are not free market they are taxes on top of taxes on top of taxes and they effect the consumer, the cost is passed to the consumer..

If you look at who has high tariffs this becomes obvious. Freedom of the consumer, and choices and even trade imbalance show a stronger economy than the country of origin of purchase.

Manipulating the market in anyway by people who think they know what is the right thing to do always creates a problem and unintended consequences.

And yes globalism is evolution. It's just a fact. It's what airplanes and computers do. That doesn't mean we have to let the un run the world.

This country became great because the forefathers used the enlightenment era philosophy and ideas about the social contract to create a government based of of natural rights and freedom.

In the early days we traded with everyone. We had high tariffs but almost no other taxes. At that time we were also a poor nation. We were not s super power until the 20th century. Now we have an income tax. Taxes on taxes.

This countries economy is sham. We nearly a trillion in debt this year alone. That isn't the sign of a strong economy. That is an economy propped up by funny money and loans. It's also temporary before the bubble blows up.

Manufacturing is one part of the economy. One. It's no more important than the other parts of the economy.

Is it possible trump's gamble with China works. Yes..is it possible it doesn't yes.

If it doesn't thousands of Americans will suffer and thousands of businesses will as well. In a worst case it starts an actual war.

So sure we have been screwed by former presidents and Congress. But blaming China isn't going to fix the broken system.

And the second trump leaves it goes back the way it was, because he hasn't United the country. He has continued Obama's legacy of legislating for the 20 percent of the public that voted for them.


Trump worries free-market economists

Tariffs and other presidential interventions are deciding corporate winners and losers in ways that Republicans have traditionally said should be left to the markets.



edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 07:46 AM
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originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: luthier

I am generally against tarrifs. Unless the tariffs are the tool I need to get free trade.


Free trade is done by not intervening in the current market. A lot of people are confused about why free market economists don't like intervention. Human beings, especially greedy ones, do not have the motivation of intellect to forsee the actual effects of their policy.

Let's take upu. We back out everyone backs out and suddenly we have a major supply chain problem or consumption problem, this effects the quarter, panicks wall street, some companies fold and we are no more competitive.

The problem with many of the folks here arguement is you do not understand the worst case scenario, or even the unintended moderate side effects and what they do in the chain of economic stability.

This is why you see so many economists literally most of them, saying uh this could be very bad mixed with the debt, the holiday buying quarter that steadies the economy, rapid inflation, deflation cycle, and the way wall street reacts to economic signs...

Most of you arguing think because you feel a certain way the economy will follow your belief system if it's only made fair....let me explain this is NOT REALITY of how markets work.

What trump is doing is gambling against very high odds of some type of massive correction.

With the state of tribalism that is extremely dangerous to civil health.

But hey I must just be an angry Democrat who hates trump. Because that is what I get constantly for explaining what I believe to be true from economic studies (mostly encouraged by Austrian economics)..

Now he could also win. And things wouldn't be that much different. Trade policy is a minute fraction of American economic problems.

However if he is wrong and we have worst case we have a cold war or a real war with China or serious rescission and inflation.

Imo this is 100 percent emotional appeal because the problem of fixing American congressional failure is not the motivation. Which is the cause of the problem not a minor symptom like trade policy.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 08:09 AM
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a reply to: luthier

Upu is an intervention. It should be stopped.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 08:32 AM
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a reply to: OccamsRazor04

It was in 1874. Now it's part of the market.

I know you understand economics better than that.


The law of unintended consequences, often cited but rarely defined, is that actions of people—and especially of government—always have effects that are unanticipated or unintended. Economists and other social scientists have heeded its power for centuries; for just as long, politicians and popular opinion have largely ignored it.


Also may I add the larger the "fix" the larger the unintended consequence.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 08:45 AM
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There is only one difference between a bad economist and a good one: the bad economist confines himself to the visible effect; the good economist takes into account both the effect that can be seen and those effects that must be foreseen.1



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 08:55 AM
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Folks isn't the problem with trade internal...isn't it Congress and political power and lobbying?

What do you expect these symptom treatments are going to do? Bring us to 3.9 unemployment for a couple years while building a larger bubble and raising the cpi?


However fixing political corruption would fix, the FDA, DEA, FBI, DOJ, Lobby power and special interest, etc ..


It's a scapegoat issue. Not that it isn't real it just is not the cause. Same with immigration. Immigration didn't make corrupt politicians make money off the illegals.

You want to keep putting lotion on the rash go ahead but I think its wise to go after the cause. Which is why I won't vote R or D. Or maybe even just vote for a new guy regardless of party or even belief just to get the old corrupt monsters out.

Those brave enough I ask you abandon your tribe and consider actually shaking things up where the problem exists.

P.s. some black SUV's just showed and told me to retract that last sentence.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 09:40 AM
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originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Xcalibur254

If your industry is built on screwing the US for the benefit of the Chinese then good riddance. Industries that require the US to be screwed should be gone.


Wish we could have Trump come over here and save us from the Chinese. He's a true breath of fresh air in a world where we've all been sold out and watched our communities get destroyed by off shoring. Trump for British PM after he's done his two terms over in the States yes please



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 09:44 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
Free trade is done by not intervening in the current market.


Chinese are Commies and certainly not free................ How can it work to deal with them with our Western rules and values, there's no such thing as "free trade" with a country that is living on a different playing field.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 09:48 AM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: luthier
Free trade is done by not intervening in the current market.


Chinese are Commies and certainly not free................ How can it work to deal with them with our Western rules and values, there's no such thing as "free trade" with a country that is living on a different playing field.


Again this is a lack of understanding actual markets. Changing the current market, any current market, with large interventions even if its derugaltuon, has large unintended consequences.

What other countries do is irrelevant to the freedom of choice for American consumers. Lots of microbusinesses benefit from China, if the population is honest they will find new markets the Chinese don't have access to because they are simply copying ideas.

The key is we stay ahead on ideas.

What folks don't get is markets find away around regulation. Any form of it including tariffs. Or else there is collapse of parts of the economy for dried supply lines.

The moral "fair" markets don't exist, the less moral human behavior the less moral the market. It's really not tied to moral economic fixes at all.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 09:52 AM
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originally posted by: ufoorbhunter

originally posted by: OccamsRazor04
a reply to: Xcalibur254

If your industry is built on screwing the US for the benefit of the Chinese then good riddance. Industries that require the US to be screwed should be gone.


Wish we could have Trump come over here and save us from the Chinese. He's a true breath of fresh air in a world where we've all been sold out and watched our communities get destroyed by off shoring. Trump for British PM after he's done his two terms over in the States yes please


It's about time people stop playing the victim and waiting for a superman to save you.

Change is done from the bottom up not the top down or its authoritarian. No way around it
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:04 AM
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originally posted by: luthierIt's about time people stop playing the victim and waiting for a superman to save you.

Change is done from the bottom up not the top down or its authoritarian. No way around it


The wealthy few have screwed things for the average man in the street. I don't need Superman I work 17 hrs a day 358 days a year thank you and get by, but so many people have been thrown under the bus by globalism and don't find a way to make a living anymore and the communities therefore have become wastelands of drugs and alcohol. Believe me for any region north of Watford things were better before any engagement with China was made, we don't need China we never ever did, they don't play it fair and have screwed us over big time.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:07 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
Again this is a lack of understanding actual markets.
It's you who needs to understand things.................... Chinese are Commies. The enemy who is building a military to move overseas. You funding it with your understanding? Traitor!



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:08 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter

While you were being a victim I made a very good living. Most people I know have 2 cars and iPhones etc. Maybe they don't need that stuff if they are complaining about how much they work.

I have adapted to many changes in the economy. I will this as well.

What I can't adapt to is the public creating tribes yo fight each other instead of the useless politicians.

How many lifers do you think thebUS will re elect because they belong to the right tribe, when in reality they are the problem not the rhetoric of another party.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:09 AM
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Actually trump and Congress are funding it with loans for the debt they created.

I personally have bought some tools that saved me money and payed taxes in the 10's of thousands with their use.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:36 AM
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originally posted by: luthier
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

While you were being a victim
I'm not a victim. Luckily I don't rely on anything Chinese it matters nothing. But for many people in the West engagement with China has been very bad news as millions of fairly paid engineering jobs have been whizzed off to China and the government has been complicit in this. They all piss in the same pot and te people in the provinces have been left to rot. China has benefitted very few people bar the businessmen who have sold out our nations for a little more profit. It's not right. Who needed Chinese a few decades ago? Nobody and life went on fine without them.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:45 AM
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a reply to: ufoorbhunter

Pretty sure if you are in society in any way you rely on the Chinese. It wouldn't appear you are living in a tent without electricity.

And I personally as well as millions of carpenters in the United states have benefited from lower tool prices than Europe who employs protections for their manufactures. Literally 100's of thousands of machine shops, factories from Chevy to Smith and Wesson have benefitted from cheaper goods which is passed to the consumer. The CNc control boxes etc...

If you honestly believe corrupt politicians or even a few good ones can change the economy to make unicorns and rainbows you just don't understand that the market doesn't care at all about morality.

The more moral its participants the moral the market. It doesn't care if you try and make things fair. You cannot over look the danger of
Unintended consequences.

I have a far better life than my grandparents. Far more money, less stress, more freedom, better pay, what I am poorer in is community as are all of us alive in the west. Fixing and having conversations about that are where our leaders would make better changes than pretending to be God with a market that doesn't exist in a moral vacuum.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)

edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:55 AM
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a reply to: sdcigarpig

You echoed Obama's statement that manufacturing jobs were "never coming back." The data shows over 2.7 million manufacturing jobs have been created since 2010. Over 90% of the growth last year was from "reshored" jobs that "came back". The zero skill jobs that have people putting pieces from machines into boxes are probably never coming back. But manufacturing is obviously "coming back".



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 10:59 AM
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originally posted by: RadioRobert
a reply to: sdcigarpig

You echoed Obama's statement that manufacturing jobs were "never coming back." The data shows over 2.7 million manufacturing jobs have been created since 2010. Over 90% of the growth last year was from "reshored" jobs that "came back". The zero skill jobs that have people putting pieces from machines into boxes are probably never coming back. But manufacturing is obviously "coming back".


That is a misconception of his comments. Those jobs will not be the staple they were, and particularly for blue collar workers, who politicians use to rally these conversations.

What it does is force the working class to retrain and hopefully the companies have deals with the states to do so.

This stuff gets characterized as sound bites is vastly complicated. We aren't just getting jobs back,..for instance what are the consequences you foresee from these moves, what are the worst case scenario models, what chance of success and long term benefit vs failure and hardship etc...

Sounds like an emotional rather than rational appeal.

You also forget to say most machinist jobs where people use calipers are also gone replaced by robotics and an operator of various skill level for every 15 prior employees.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:09 AM
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a reply to: luthier

No. We shouldn't allow MNC's to off-shore to a country that artificially controls the global market through command economy. Through currency manipulation (we miss you, gold standard) and gross subsidy they are literally putting foreign industry out of business so they can dominate markets.

We wouldn't let Walmart sell items at a loss to put other stores out of business, but you're fine letting the Chinese (and others) disrupt global supply chains to make western manufacturing collapse so we send them all our hard currency to fuel the war machine and more heavy subsidies to their industry to steal other sectors the same way.

It's also laughable to say "we need to stay ahead in innovation" about a country that laughs at IP laws and blatantly copies anything they can.

Is there a cost to stopping those things? Both to the individual consumer and the market? Yes, absolutely. Is it worth every penny? Yes.



posted on Oct, 18 2018 @ 11:16 AM
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a reply to: RadioRobert

Never said fine with anything. What I said was it isn't the root of our problem and will make insognificant changes to the health of the country or economy.

It isn't China fault out education sucks. Kids are on Instagram and make terrible workers.

What I also said and am trying to explain is the markets don't work with moral intervention. It isn't a mass globalist conspiracy that economists from free market and intervention market philosophy are not on board with trade wars.

What I said was it's a wag the dog scapegoat issue that is addressing a symptom of a larger problem. It also isn't a very high odds of "success"

The Chinese can't manufacture what they don't have the understanding or controls to do.

They are however INVESTING in research our government is lazy on like encryption.

But hey I know it's an emotional feel good issue to make things appear to be made fair.

I will just point out the market does not function in an A leads to B situation and never has when using political force.
edit on 18-10-2018 by luthier because: (no reason given)



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