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The state of America and the state of ATS

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posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:22 PM
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a reply to: underwerks

Or maybe you should see that we both posted at the same time, so what was there to even read?

Not only does that not change anything, but in the greatest show of irony (yet, again), you expose your complete lack of self-awareness by not realizing you're no different than those you criticize. You just happen to be on the other side of the coin.

But please continue doing what you do, you always offer me great insight. Just not in the way you think.



edit on 15-10-2018 by knowledgehunter0986 because: (no reason given)




posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:27 PM
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originally posted by: loam

originally posted by: underwerks
I’d have to read through your posts to see if you qualify or not, and I don’t have time for that at the moment. “Extreme nationalism” means just that, nationalism taken to the extreme.


You're defining a phrase by the phrase itself?

As for the rest of your post....where to begin?

Not sure I have the energy.


What am I unclear about? I tried to be as descriptive as I could about the different attributes that people that follow this ideology have. That’s Trumpism, reactionary politics.

The belief that whatever you do or stance you take is alright because of what you believe the other side to be.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:28 PM
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originally posted by: Breakthestreak

originally posted by: loam
a reply to: Fallingdown

No improvement in human conflict ever occurred because we matched the outrageousness of the other side.

At what point do you recognize 'more of the same' is also not a solution?


Peaceful protesters defending themselves against fascist groups is not ‘matching the outrageousness’, not even close.



What peaceful group are you referring to? This one , the one talking about wanting to instigate violence? Very peaceful group ganging up on one person and beating them.

This is what you are defending, this is criminal and stupid.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:31 PM
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a reply to: underwerks

So do all those who voted for Trump meet your definition?



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:31 PM
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a reply to: Fallingdown

Men?

Group stomping people?

That doesn't fit my definition of "man" by a long yard. Though I will agree that the Anti-FA groupies do act much like bullying children if/when given the chance...Proud Boys also fit that descriptor.

Neither group(s) are exactly sterling examples of what I'd want my child to be. Oddly enough, I've had close encounters with both groups...one (anti-FA--or supporters there of) election night, the other just a few months back, you'd not be able to tell 'em apart without a program. Same vile attitudes, though coming from other directions, same apparent willingness to resort to violence to support their cause.

I'll deny 'em both. As I'm an adult, and pretty much gave up the playground posturing four plus decades ago.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:31 PM
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originally posted by: NiNjABackflip
a reply to: JohnnyCanuck




So...maybe some of us more long-term members (suddenly, that includes me) should make a concerted effort to chill and keep things civil? Any takers? I'll start by staying out of the mudpit.


Why? If civil people leave the conversation it becomes more uncivil. That's the problem to begin with.


Agreed, I think we need more civil voices, not less. We need to call out the extremists amongst us even if they are on our side politically.
edit on 15-10-2018 by BlackJackal because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:31 PM
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originally posted by: Fools
a reply to: NiNjABackflip

Thank you, could not have said it better myself.

I do not make political allies with centrists and have not for a very long time. I want my political side to win, and it is not going to win with any portion of membership that is willing to cry about everybody getting along.

The most fatal part of these centrist is that since left wing people lie about anything to further their goals they will use the centrist to carry much of their water. That is why I am no longer giving quarter to centrist. Let them carry water for a bunch of hateful losers. Their choice, not mine.


what are you trying to win?...what part of the social construct of America do you think you've lost?....

you saying "left wing people lie about everything" is demonstrably a lie, just as it would be saying the same thing about conservatives....face it, you want to live in a country run by a rightwing authoritarian, without constitutional protections for anyone else that thinks differently...my advice...move to Russia, China, Saudi Arabia....you'll be a lot more comfortable with their brand of "winning"



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:33 PM
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originally posted by: seagull
....you'd not be able to tell 'em apart without a program.


Best damn thing I've read all day.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:34 PM
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originally posted by: knowledgehunter0986
a reply to: underwerks

Or maybe you should see that we both posted at the same time, so what was there to even read?

Not only does that not change anything, but in the greatest show of irony (yet, again), you expose your complete lack of self-awareness by not realizing you're no different than those you criticize. You just happen to be on the other side of the coin.

But please continue doing what you do, you always offer me great insight. Just not in the way you think.




And for Exhibit A of what I’m talking about: take the reply above.

Nothing of any value being added to the conversation, just a personal attack based on their reaction to what I’ve said.

Reactionary politics, people. This is what’s wrong.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:36 PM
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This is what can happen when you practice pacifism . If anyone would have spoke out they would’ve been met with violence .

First they came for the socialists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a socialist.

Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a trade unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:36 PM
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a reply to: underwerks



Reactionary politics, in a phrase. Extreme nationalism is a winner take all worldview, which in reality only makes us all losers because the people you are supposedly fighting against are your own countrymen. And since this used to be a conspiracy board and not a “believe anything the government tells me as long as it makes democrats look bad” board I’m going to say that’s by design.


There is the nationalism thing in the US, but of greater importance is the problem of US Politics having descended into Tribal warfare by way of the practice of identity politics. I'd strongly suggest you read:
www.theatlantic.com...

Broadly speaking the author points up US history as one of having been formed out of the idea that since the US was about bringing many different ethnic groups into one polity for the purpose of forming a "Nation", the Constitution and the protections it afforded became the central unifying force.


Instead, as Abraham Lincoln put it, reverence for the “Constitution and Laws” was to be America’s “political religion.” Americans were to be united through a new kind of patriotism—constitutional patriotism—based on ideals enshrined in their founding document.


Today the Constitution is seen as a weapon to be used by one Tribe vs. the other Tribes.


Americans have come to view the Constitution not as a statement of shared principles but as a cudgel with which to attack their enemies.


The problems outlined in the OP have, in my opinion, more to do with Tribalism than Nationalism, the "Nationalists" being just one of many "Tribes".

And now the result of descent into Tribalism:

All of this has contributed to a climate in which every group in America—minorities and whites; conservatives and liberals; the working class and elites—feels under attack, pitted against the others not just for jobs and spoils, but for the right to define the nation’s identity. In these conditions, democracy devolves into a zero-sum competition, one in which parties succeed by stoking voters’ fears and appealing to their ugliest us-versus-them instincts.


As things progress along these lines, indeed, "the center will not hold".



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:37 PM
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originally posted by:

Reactionary politics, people. This is what’s wrong.


...and broad brushes.
edit on 15-10-2018 by loam because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:37 PM
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originally posted by: loam
a reply to: underwerks

So do all those who voted for Trump meet your definition?


This poster was very clear on who met the definition:



Demonization of foreigners, demonization of liberals, and people of color and lgtbq people. Or supporting people that do that, because the libs and SJWs. Running with any story or belief that reinforces what you want to think regardless of where it came from and whether it’s true or not. As long as it owns the libs. Never being able to call out the president at the same time the other side does.


Do 'all those who voted for Trump' meet the above?

I didn't read much of the thread mentioned in the OP, but I found the opening ironic. It went something like 'more examples from the peaceful and tolerate'



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:39 PM
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a reply to: underwerks

Lol, hilarious. How have you added any more substance to this thread than I have? You're attacking all Trump supporters with broad strokes and hyperbole, and I'm calling you out for it. How typical of you to play the victim though.

Yes, yes.. reactionary politics is the problem, and nothing else.

/s



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:46 PM
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originally posted by: jimmyx

originally posted by: Fools
a reply to: NiNjABackflip

Thank you, could not have said it better myself.

I do not make political allies with centrists and have not for a very long time. I want my political side to win, and it is not going to win with any portion of membership that is willing to cry about everybody getting along.

The most fatal part of these centrist is that since left wing people lie about anything to further their goals they will use the centrist to carry much of their water. That is why I am no longer giving quarter to centrist. Let them carry water for a bunch of hateful losers. Their choice, not mine.


what are you trying to win?...what part of the social construct of America do you think you've lost?....

you saying "left wing people lie about everything" is demonstrably a lie, just as it would be saying the same thing about conservatives....face it, you want to live in a country run by a rightwing authoritarian, without constitutional protections for anyone else that thinks differently...my advice...move to Russia, China, Saudi Arabia....you'll be a lot more comfortable with their brand of "winning"


I want to live in a country that is constrained by the constitution that is its actual law of the land. Nothing more, nothing less. I would do anything to get this country back to that mode of thinking. If you really want or love freedom, that is what you would want as well.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:48 PM
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Again, if antifa wasn't trying to instigate violence, attack, censor and drown out the other side's protests and marches, no such violence would occur. Violence is their modus operandi. It seems, at least to me, fighting back is the modus operandi of these proud boys.

Political violence goes coast to coast as Proud Boys and antifa activists clash in New York, Portland


As for the fighting, antifa takes that part of the doctrine literally. Claiming that even a small public gathering of fascists is a threat to freedom, the movement condones physical violence against them. Its anonymous, black-clad members routinely crash far-right demonstrations to brawl.


Antifa protesters couldn’t find any fascists at Unite the Right — and harassed the press instead

So why are we saying both are the same?



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:50 PM
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a reply to: knowledgehunter0986


Lol, hilarious.


I can see as a non-American it brings you joy to see my country descend into madness.

I can’t share that sentiment.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:52 PM
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a reply to: BlackJackal

If ever I read hopelessness.....
I get what your saying.
Defending an extremist of any persuasion is juvenile and tribal. How very sad when we hear or read "but their side did this" when we all know 100% that "WE ALL DO THIS". There is no one side one is better than the other when it comes to smacking each other up, running over people killing them, threatening them, taking baseball bats to someone else and their homes or business etc.

Being a fanatic of any camp is weak minded. In truth, the louder they yell and the harder they fight shoving their self righteousness down anyones throat but their own, the weaker emotionally they are.

But, people still need to be tribal, there is no primal safety in being a lone wolf.

Lines were drawn long ago, albeit faintly but in this current divisive reality that line is thick and freshly painted. Their natural instinct has been to revert to tribalism. Extreme tribalism is the same whether it's left, right or Isis. Extremist mentality of forcing your opinion on anyone in order to gain a misguided sense of authoritative power of an opposing tribe is never going to work. With tribalism there will always be wars and power struggles, there has NEVER been an eternal victor.

I have learned to avoid stopping for long enough to hear peeps blindly shouting their boring self serving extremest political opinions.
This has made life pleasant.

The good news is, on ATS all topics like UFO's survival etc have always had their fair share of mental cases, politics is no different, hopefully something seksier comes along to get people squabbling and yelling.

Maybe someone bags a Bigfoot or an EBE, or both!

Good to see you, I've been on hiatus myself and the only reason I'm posting in the pit is because I saw you authored it.

edit on 15-10-2018 by zazzafrazz because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:58 PM
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originally posted by: NiNjABackflip
Again, if antifa wasn't trying to instigate violence, attack, censor and drown out the other side's protests and marches, no such violence would occur. Violence is their modus operandi. It seems, at least to me, fighting back is the modus operandi of these proud boys.

Political violence goes coast to coast as Proud Boys and antifa activists clash in New York, Portland


As for the fighting, antifa takes that part of the doctrine literally. Claiming that even a small public gathering of fascists is a threat to freedom, the movement condones physical violence against them. Its anonymous, black-clad members routinely crash far-right demonstrations to brawl.


Antifa protesters couldn’t find any fascists at Unite the Right — and harassed the press instead

So why are we saying both are the same?


They are both the same, extremist groups. There's only a difference if you support either or.

I see a lot of "I'm not saying x BUT...." or "I don't support violence BUT...."

Insert attempts to rationalize and justify violence.



posted on Oct, 15 2018 @ 01:59 PM
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a reply to: NiNjABackflip


Again, if antifa wasn't trying to instigate violence, attack, censor and drown out the other side's protests and marches, no such violence would occur.


Good lord man, have you ever had an experience with these people in real life? If anyone wants to see the proud boys in action, come to Seattle. They sit outside the train station on 3rd ave downtown with their signs and MAGA hats hurling racial slurs at people. And then when someone confronts them, they film it and post it online as them being attacked by the “crazy libs”.

They’re down there about 3 days a week for anyone who wants to see who they actually are. This internet version of them being some kind of “protectors” is absolute horse crap.

Here’s their Facebook group: m.facebook.com...




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