Rockafeller, CFR, Free Masonry, Sumerians...

Originally posted by Grey
I see by your subtle arrogance, The Axeman, that you do exactly what's opposite of this websites infamous saying. You attempt to debunk my statement, without any proof to back it up. Why don't you heed your own advice, and do your own research. I think it'd do you some good.

I've done plenty of research, though you are right, more research never hurt anyone. Thanks for the suggestion.

If I am arrogant, what does that make you?

And yes, in fact, of the fifty six signers of the Declaration of Independence, only one, as stated before, was known not to be a part of Free Masonry. Why don't you read some works of an early Masonic writer named Manly P. Hall, before flaunting your all knowing wisdom.

Well this has already been shown to be false, but just for funsies, where did you get this information? You don't want to give links? Point me to the books or documents and I'll take my arrogant ass to the library.

And, regaurding the American Revolution, it was not entirely caused by invisible movements ... but a good portion of it was. The reasons are too numerous to go on right now ... but I'll tell you what was caused almost entirely by 'secret societies'.

The French Revolution. And I'm sure I'll get many critics on that one.

Almost every major event in history has had behind the scenes players. What's your point?

And since you are so certain that History books and such are wrong, where did you come by this information? Please, deny ignorance; as you have stated that I am "doing the opposite", why don't you lend me a hand there, bud?

For those that are interested: www.cfr.org...

www.cfr.org...

So what's your problem, that people who run the country have a forum to discuss and present ideas, and that the leaders and main players in this country are involved? OMG it's a conspiracy!!!

Originally posted by Grey
"Actually, the number is 8, not 56. 56 was the total number of signers. The following 8 signers were Masons ..."

That, my friend, is wrong. While the 8 you list are the most publically known, the other 42 were also Free Masons or affiliated with Free Masonry. Whatever your opinion, that much is true, and I do not feel a need to argue with a conflicting point of view.

Why not, because you can't? Show us some evidence that they were Freemasons or "affiliated' with Freemasonry. And how is one affiliated without being a member, praytell?

[edit on 2/24/05 by The Axeman]

Originally posted by Grey
Go do some research about the aforementioned. Until then I choose not to answer to such an ignorant post.

I know exactly what the Council on Foreign Relations does. Their meetings, while private, are no secret. Again, I don't see what the problem with several important people meeting to discuss world events. Please enlighten me.

And what evidence would that be? Some petty links to sites with no credability? Because I'm sure that's where you got your information of the 'few' Mason signers, as well as probably, by word of mouth/post.

Let me edit and clarify one thing that was at my fault. Every signer, except for one, of the Declaration of Independence was either a Freemason or assosciated with Free Masonry. Either or, excuse me for leaving that out. That's an important word there.

Here ya go, buddy:

Known Masons (10): Benjamin Franklin, John Hancock, Joseph Hewes, William Hooper, Thomas McKean, Robert Treat Payne, Richard Stockton, George Walton, William Whipple, John Witherspoon

Evidence of Membership And/or Affiliations (7): Elbridge Berry, Lyman Hall, Thomas Jefferson, Thomas Nelson Jr., John Penn, George Read, Roger Sherman

Summary: 15 of 56 Signers (27%) were Freemasons or probable Freemasons.

Originally posted by sebatwerk
And what evidence would that be? Some petty links to sites with no credability? Because I'm sure that's where you got your information of the 'few' Mason signers, as well as probably, by word of mouth/post.

Let me edit and clarify one thing that was at my fault. Every signer, except for one, of the Declaration of Independence was either a Freemason or assosciated with Free Masonry. Either or, excuse me for leaving that out. That's an important word there.

Now the signers of the Constitution are a little closer to your numbers, still not THAT close:

Known Masons (9): Gunning Bedford, Jr., John Blair, David Brearly, Jacob Broom, Daniel Carrol, John Dickinson, Benjamin Franklin, Rufus King, George Washington

Evidence of Membership And/or Affiliations (13): Abraham Baldwin, William Blount, Elbridge Gerry, Nicholas Gilman, Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, John Lansing, Jr., James Madison, George Mason, George Read, Robert Morris, Roger Sherman, George Wythe

Those Who Later Became Masons (6): William Richardson Davie, Jr., Jonathan Dayton, Dr. James McHenry, John Francis Mercer, William Patterson, Daniel of St. Thomas Jenifer

Summary: 28 of 40 signers (70%) were Freemasons or possible Freemasons based on evidence other than lodge records.


Please do YOUR research before posting what you perceive to be the "truth". Broad generalizations do nothing to help us deny ignorance.


[edit on 25-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

Sorry.

[edit on 25-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

I conceded that I jumbled my words in the beginning, in that every signer was infact a Freemason. Like I clarified before, not every signer was a Freemason, but every signer was either a Freemason, or associated with Freemasonry. Excuse me for the mishap.

And please, Axeman, follow the paper trail. Who provided the building that was/is the main headquarters of the CFR? Rockefeller. Who financed CFR? Rockefeller. General Motors, Texaco ... amongst many more I've previously named.

What did Rockefeller own during the height of his power, still several years after the creation of the CFR?

About 80-90% of the United States oil.

Oil is much thicker than blood.

Of course the CFR has it's neat little website ... they were critisized in Britain in the middle part of the century for it's political gains. Look up and find exactly how many people were/are apart of the CFR, and you won't be dismissing it as quickly as you do.

And as I said, find your own sources, or just believe I spit them out my a.ss. Like I said, god gave you a brain, and the freedom of opinion.



[edit on 25-2-2005 by Grey]

Originally posted by Grey
I conceded that I jumbled my words in the beginning, in that every signer was infact a Freemason. Like I clarified before, not every signer was a Freemason, but every signer was either a Freemason, or associated with Freemasonry. Excuse me for the mishap.

ARE YOU KIDDING!?!?!? They were all conspirators in overthrowing England's rule over the colonies! That's That doesn't mean that the non-masons were affiliated with masonry, only with a few masons. 15 to be exact!


All you guys seem to make the same mistake, that a few members represent Freemasonry as a whole. Guys, it's a HUGE fraternity, no one group of members represents the organization as a whole. Get it through your heads.


[edit on 25-2-2005 by sebatwerk]

"ARE YOU KIDDING!?!?!? They were all conspirators in overthrowing England's rule over the colonies! That's That doesn't mean that the non-masons were affiliated with masonry, only with a few masons. 15 to be exact! "

I think you should calm down ... you answered my post within 5 seconds of me posting it. I had to read this body of sentences twice to comprehend it ... calm those fingers.

And are you American, friend? Because I am, and I am well aware of my countries history. I know they were conspirators to over throw English rule. And I never said no one group of members represents the orginization as a whole ... on the contraray, in earliar times than in this point in history, for example, there have been seperate Free Mason lodges under their own juristriction. Again, you're putting words in my mouth.

"All you guys seem to make the same mistake, that a few members represent Freemasonry as a whole. Guys, it's a HUGE fraternity, no one group of members represents the organization as a whole. Get it through your heads."

Like I stated, I never said a few represent the whole. Again, on the contrary, Free Masons of the lower levels don't usually know how they're being manipulated from the higher levels. The levels are arranged in such away, at least back then, that you'd never know who the 'head' was, usually. A triangular rule.

Originally posted by Grey
Like I stated, I never said a few represent the whole. Again, on the contrary, Free Masons of the lower levels don't usually know how they're being manipulated from the higher levels. The levels are arranged in such away, at least back then, that you'd never know who the 'head' was, usually. A triangular rule.

And how do you know this??? Please tell us what makes YOU so knowledgeable in this area. Sorry, but I don't think I or most of the masons I know are dumb enough to be coerced in the way you say. That's just ridiculous, no offense. We've heard the same thing from many people before, and it's never made any sense. You are neither qualified nor knowledgeable enough to know that, and therefore are simply spreading falcities. I've already debunked several of your false statements, I suggest you stop making them because I'm getting tired of dealing with your baseless, wild accusations.

Originally posted by Grey
I conceded that I jumbled my words in the beginning, in that every signer was infact a Freemason. Like I clarified before, not every signer was a Freemason, but every signer was either a Freemason, or associated with Freemasonry. Excuse me for the mishap.

And please, Axeman, follow the paper trail. Who provided the building that was/is the main headquarters of the CFR? Rockefeller. Who financed CFR? Rockefeller. General Motors, Texaco ... amongst many more I've previously named.

What did Rockefeller own during the height of his power, still several years after the creation of the CFR?

About 80-90% of the United States oil.

Oil is much thicker than blood.

Of course the CFR has it's neat little website ... they were critisized in Britain in the middle part of the century for it's political gains. Look up and find exactly how many people were/are apart of the CFR, and you won't be dismissing it as quickly as you do.

And as I said, find your own sources, or just believe I spit them out my a.ss. Like I said, god gave you a brain, and the freedom of opinion.

And you think the people with the money and power working together to try to keep it that way is something new?

Look, I'm not saying either way, but if you want to play conspiracy theory and then scoff at me and tell me you're too good to post your own references well then that's cool dude, whatever. It's not going to ruin my day.

"And how do you know this??? Please tell us what makes YOU so knowledgeable in this area. Sorry, but I don't think I or most of the masons I know are dumb enough to be coerced in the way you say. That's just ridiculous, no offense. We've heard the same thing from many people before, and it's never made any sense. You are neither qualified nor knowledgeable enough to know that, and therefore are simply spreading falcities. I've already debunked several of your false statements, I suggest you stop making them because I'm getting tired of dealing with your baseless, wild accusations. "

Then walk off with the satisfaction of "debunk[ing] several of [my] false statements" and stop "deal[ing] with [my] baseless, wild accusations."

You must be in high school, cause you certaintly act like it. To you, this is probably a heated fight within a circle of bored, teenage onlookers. What difference does it make to me if another under-informed know it all runs the streets? I'm not here for popularity. I'm here to inform and discuss.

After all, I'm not "qualified" nor "knowledgable" enough to know what I'm talking about, so you might as well dismiss me and walk away.

Axeman, congradulations. You hit the nail on the head. Yes, I thought all this was new. I'm actually 13 and just read this off of india.org and got really excited so I came here to tell you guys what I've learned.

I'm done with this thread until people that have something to say post.

Originally posted by Grey
Axeman, congradulations. You hit the nail on the head. Yes, I thought all this was new. I'm actually 13 and just read this off of india.org and got really excited so I came here to tell you guys what I've learned.

I'm done with this thread until people that have something to say post.

Well gee, guy, in the last post there you said you where here to "inform and discuss". So long as no one asks you for references or sources, right?

If you couldn't tell I'm just as annoyed with you as you are with me, so maybe we should calm down and have a beer.

[edit on 2/25/05 by The Axeman]

Next thing they will joke about BBQing Babies, I don't get these people.

Every time we open a Pandoras Box, you guys hurry to post to make sure nothing we say is actually at the end of a thread. Would it kill you to NOT post, if you aren't responding to the issue at hand?

At least I ask questions when I change the topic. You guys derive what seems like perverse pleasure from misdirection.

First person to say: "That ISN'T a secret Handshake!" wins


[edit on 25-2-2005 by akilles]

Originally posted by akilles
Would it kill you to NOT post...

I beg the same thing of you. Do us all a favor.

Read this page, explain it to me, and I will NEVER post here again. I promise.

www.freedomdomain.com...

I want an explanation from each Freemason independently, but I will keep my word.

Originally posted by akilles
Read this page, explain it to me, and I will NEVER post here again. I promise.

www.freedomdomain.com...

I want an explanation from each Freemason independently, but I will keep my word.

This link correct? doesn't seem to be working, at least not for me.

Smart people search Google, and visit the Cached version.
I just checked, and it was up.

"Read this page, explain it to me, and I will NEVER post here again. I promise."

Explain it to you? What's there to explain? Going through that site for a conspiracy theorists is like a kid going through a candy shop. That site does a good enough job, you'd think, explaining every bit of preconcepted and idolized theory associated to Free Masonry.

Though I didn't really give the site much time, I can tell you those numerological designs in maps and such ... are a good laugh.

I think people put way too much effort in the whole Free Masonry thing ... I guess that seems to be the most popular secret society now a days.

Over time, I guess, people take black and white, and turn it into a brilliant rainbow.

Funny, a generation or two ago it was the Rothschilds that had all this attention.

Originally posted by Grey
Explain it to you? What's there to explain? Going through that site for a conspiracy theorists is like a kid going through a candy shop. That site does a good enough job, you'd think, explaining every bit of preconcepted and idolized theory associated to Free Masonry.

Though I didn't really give the site much time, I can tell you those numerological designs in maps and such ... are a good laugh.

I think people put way too much effort in the whole Free Masonry thing ... I guess that seems to be the most popular secret society now a days.

Over time, I guess, people take black and white, and turn it into a brilliant rainbow.

At least one anti has the right idea...

Originally posted by Grey
Then walk off with the satisfaction of "debunk[ing] several of [my] false statements" and stop "deal[ing] with [my] baseless, wild accusations."

You must be in high school, cause you certaintly act like it. To you, this is probably a heated fight within a circle of bored, teenage onlookers. What difference does it make to me if another under-informed know it all runs the streets? I'm not here for popularity. I'm here to inform and discuss.

After all, I'm not "qualified" nor "knowledgable" enough to know what I'm talking about, so you might as well dismiss me and walk away.

THAT'S exactly what my problem with you is. You say you come to this site to post and discuss, but then you make no effort to have a serious conversation based on anything other than bogus theories and tired propaganda.

You SHOULD care if some under-informed know-it-all runsa the streets, and you should make an effort to either learn from him or to teach him. Indifference is as big of a problem as ignorance, I don't know which is worse.