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Peeing!!! in My Own Pool: The Problem of Tibetanism
page: 3share:
a reply to: ipsedixit
I don't know where you got this idea, but according to the Bardo teachings of the Tibetan Book of the Dead and elsewhere, it's quite the opposite of what you imply.
Simply put, in the intermediate state between death and birth a being who has the karma of taking rebirth as a human being will see human men and women copulating. Or, they will see men or women to whom they are attracted. As a result, they will attach to that person, and then take rebirth as the opposite sex. This is very much the accepted understanding, according to "tantric" psychology (for want of a better term). So to the degree that a male is infatuated with same-sex partners in this life, one will tend to take rebirth as a female, or as a feminized male perhaps, and vice-versa for females.
Since the intermediate state or "bardo" being often has no memory of the previous life, and is desperate to find a warm and comforting embrace, it is possible to take rebirth as human male or female more or less randomly, irrespective of the immediately preceding life's habit, because in countless lifetimes and in countless ways, we have been reborn as male, female, hermaphroditic, or genderless beings. In other words, a heterosexual in this life may still take rebirth as the opposite sex in a future life, because the nature of desire being what it is, anything is possible -- similar to putting a bunch of men or women in prison. Straight becomes gay very easily under such circumstances, and the intermediate state is nothing if not a stressful, urgent situation.
According to Mahayana Buddhism, gender is irrelevant as far as enlightenment is concerned. I think that also implies sexual preference is irrelevant, but Buddhist religious conservatives mostly tend to disagree with that view.
A person who has purified their karma of compulsive attraction can choose their gender at the moment of conception, if they have a stable focus and intention. The lesson is, if you want to be a specific gender in a future life, pray for it.
The practice among Tibetan masters is to attempt to "game" that natural pattern by promoting homosexuality in an attempt to insure the preferred male birth for tulkus.
I don't know where you got this idea, but according to the Bardo teachings of the Tibetan Book of the Dead and elsewhere, it's quite the opposite of what you imply.
Simply put, in the intermediate state between death and birth a being who has the karma of taking rebirth as a human being will see human men and women copulating. Or, they will see men or women to whom they are attracted. As a result, they will attach to that person, and then take rebirth as the opposite sex. This is very much the accepted understanding, according to "tantric" psychology (for want of a better term). So to the degree that a male is infatuated with same-sex partners in this life, one will tend to take rebirth as a female, or as a feminized male perhaps, and vice-versa for females.
Since the intermediate state or "bardo" being often has no memory of the previous life, and is desperate to find a warm and comforting embrace, it is possible to take rebirth as human male or female more or less randomly, irrespective of the immediately preceding life's habit, because in countless lifetimes and in countless ways, we have been reborn as male, female, hermaphroditic, or genderless beings. In other words, a heterosexual in this life may still take rebirth as the opposite sex in a future life, because the nature of desire being what it is, anything is possible -- similar to putting a bunch of men or women in prison. Straight becomes gay very easily under such circumstances, and the intermediate state is nothing if not a stressful, urgent situation.
According to Mahayana Buddhism, gender is irrelevant as far as enlightenment is concerned. I think that also implies sexual preference is irrelevant, but Buddhist religious conservatives mostly tend to disagree with that view.
A person who has purified their karma of compulsive attraction can choose their gender at the moment of conception, if they have a stable focus and intention. The lesson is, if you want to be a specific gender in a future life, pray for it.
a reply to: starwarsisreal
It sure does.
I think what separates the great masters like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, generally acknowledged to be the greatest meditation master of the twentieth century, from lesser "masters", and what inoculates them from the corruption of power, is their pervasive loving kindness and good humor, even toward their enemies and detractors. They don't allow themselves to become fascinated with power. They don't take possession of power. They ignore it completely, and loath to be denied, it is forced to flow into acts of tremendous compassion and care for others.
It sure does.
I think what separates the great masters like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, generally acknowledged to be the greatest meditation master of the twentieth century, from lesser "masters", and what inoculates them from the corruption of power, is their pervasive loving kindness and good humor, even toward their enemies and detractors. They don't allow themselves to become fascinated with power. They don't take possession of power. They ignore it completely, and loath to be denied, it is forced to flow into acts of tremendous compassion and care for others.
a reply to: ipsedixit
I'm more of a Therevada Buddhism kind of guy. I don't believe in any gods or hocus pocus woo but I like the basic rules and the four noble truths.
I have a 1973 hardback copy of "The Buddhist Outlook" by Francis Story, I'd recommend it to anyone interested.
I'm more of a Therevada Buddhism kind of guy. I don't believe in any gods or hocus pocus woo but I like the basic rules and the four noble truths.
I have a 1973 hardback copy of "The Buddhist Outlook" by Francis Story, I'd recommend it to anyone interested.
a reply to: Namdru
I hear you. You are talking about what is a published theory and practice. I can only relate what I was told by my guru. The lineages have considerable control over what happens to someone after they leave their current body, despite what it says in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
I hear you. You are talking about what is a published theory and practice. I can only relate what I was told by my guru. The lineages have considerable control over what happens to someone after they leave their current body, despite what it says in the Tibetan Book of the Dead.
originally posted by: CornishCeltGuy
a reply to: ipsedixit
I'm more of a Therevada Buddhism kind of guy. I don't believe in any gods or hocus pocus woo but I like the basic rules and the four noble truths.
I have a 1973 hardback copy of "The Buddhist Outlook" by Francis Story, I'd recommend it to anyone interested.
Thanks for contributing.
There are "hells" mentioned in the Tripitaka, but these could be interpreted as illusions. There are also people mentioned in the Tripitaka, but these could also be interpreted as illusions. I'll look for a review of Story's book.
a reply to: ipsedixit
There is a book called Hitler's Monsters that mentioned how the Nazis send an expedition to Tibet. While the author (a skeptic of the paranormal) didn't put this, I believe the Nazis wanted to learn more about Dark Magick from the corrupt Tibetan Buddhists.
It explains why some Nazis like Heinrich Himmler believed in reincarnation. They are influenced by them.
There is a book called Hitler's Monsters that mentioned how the Nazis send an expedition to Tibet. While the author (a skeptic of the paranormal) didn't put this, I believe the Nazis wanted to learn more about Dark Magick from the corrupt Tibetan Buddhists.
It explains why some Nazis like Heinrich Himmler believed in reincarnation. They are influenced by them.
edit on 10/7/2018 by starwarsisreal because: (no reason given)
a reply to: starwarsisreal
There is definitely a Buddhist/Nazi connection, just as there is definitely a Zionist/Nazi connection and definitely a Roman Catholic/Nazi connection and definitely a Bush family/Nazi connection. The Nazis were well connected, in the beginning at least.
There is an interesting anecdote in John Toland's biography of Hitler, when, reviewing one of Himmler's giant pagan influenced night time rallies, which occurred on or near Christmas, Hitler remarked to one of his companions on the reviewing stage, "This will never replace "Silent Night".
There is definitely a Buddhist/Nazi connection, just as there is definitely a Zionist/Nazi connection and definitely a Roman Catholic/Nazi connection and definitely a Bush family/Nazi connection. The Nazis were well connected, in the beginning at least.
There is an interesting anecdote in John Toland's biography of Hitler, when, reviewing one of Himmler's giant pagan influenced night time rallies, which occurred on or near Christmas, Hitler remarked to one of his companions on the reviewing stage, "This will never replace "Silent Night".
edit on 7-10-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ipsedixit
Khyentse Rinpoche suffered a lot -- a lot -- of serious losses. He spent years recovering from burns as a child, and almost died. He was depressed because his father wouldn't let him become a monk. His health did not thrive once he took robes and went to practice for years in a cave, in fact it's the main reason he took a wife and made a family, so he wouldn't die young. His family estates were seized, he had to leave eastern Tibet to escape the Chinese, and eventually fled to Bhutan with his familly, where he was imprisoned. Later his younger daughter, the gifted one who would have been a great lama herself, died suddenly in India. All the while he was caring for fellow Tibetans who had suffered imprisonment, torture, the loss of loved ones in tragic circumstances, the loss of their homeland. Khyentse Rinpoche did not have it easy, especially, even if he was born wealthy.
By contrast most of the tulkus in the forties and fifties nowadays are silver-spoon babies. They have been worshipped since childhood, coddled, spoiled and have monstrous entitlement issues. Yes, I mean even the big brand name guys with thousands of disciples who are untainted by scandal. They don't have the same quality of their own teachers who had to suffer so much to survive, much less succeed in their roles. When your title, wealth and fame are handed to you on a silver platter, there is little opportunity for character-building. Suffering, and the compassion and sensitivity that comes from that, in my opinion, is what made Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and many of his contemporaries so exceptional.
I think what separates the great masters like Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, generally acknowledged to be the greatest meditation master of the twentieth century, from lesser "masters", and what inoculates them from the corruption of power, is their pervasive loving kindness and good humor, even toward their enemies and detractors. They don't allow themselves to become fascinated with power. They don't take possession of power. They ignore it completely, and loath to be denied, it is forced to flow into acts of tremendous compassion and care for others.
Khyentse Rinpoche suffered a lot -- a lot -- of serious losses. He spent years recovering from burns as a child, and almost died. He was depressed because his father wouldn't let him become a monk. His health did not thrive once he took robes and went to practice for years in a cave, in fact it's the main reason he took a wife and made a family, so he wouldn't die young. His family estates were seized, he had to leave eastern Tibet to escape the Chinese, and eventually fled to Bhutan with his familly, where he was imprisoned. Later his younger daughter, the gifted one who would have been a great lama herself, died suddenly in India. All the while he was caring for fellow Tibetans who had suffered imprisonment, torture, the loss of loved ones in tragic circumstances, the loss of their homeland. Khyentse Rinpoche did not have it easy, especially, even if he was born wealthy.
By contrast most of the tulkus in the forties and fifties nowadays are silver-spoon babies. They have been worshipped since childhood, coddled, spoiled and have monstrous entitlement issues. Yes, I mean even the big brand name guys with thousands of disciples who are untainted by scandal. They don't have the same quality of their own teachers who had to suffer so much to survive, much less succeed in their roles. When your title, wealth and fame are handed to you on a silver platter, there is little opportunity for character-building. Suffering, and the compassion and sensitivity that comes from that, in my opinion, is what made Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche and many of his contemporaries so exceptional.
a reply to: ipsedixit
Utter conspiratorial nonsense. Most of the lamas are fakes wearing the pretentious clothing of saints and magi. None of them, individually or as a lineage, is more powerful than someone's own practice and karma. Of course some of them want you to believe they are that powerful, but that is the Dark Side speaking.
And how would you know anyway? Can you see what happens after someone dies?
This is what Buddha taught: if we master ourselves, we master our fates. The notion that some special fraternity of ascended masters, tulkus or Gurus controls your future destiny is not Buddhism. It is delusion.
The lineages have considerable control over what happens to someone after they leave their current body
Utter conspiratorial nonsense. Most of the lamas are fakes wearing the pretentious clothing of saints and magi. None of them, individually or as a lineage, is more powerful than someone's own practice and karma. Of course some of them want you to believe they are that powerful, but that is the Dark Side speaking.
And how would you know anyway? Can you see what happens after someone dies?
This is what Buddha taught: if we master ourselves, we master our fates. The notion that some special fraternity of ascended masters, tulkus or Gurus controls your future destiny is not Buddhism. It is delusion.
It is a cliché that male children have an affinity for their mothers and female children have an affinity for their fathers.
The Tibetan Book of the Dead is in accord with this, when it says that affinity for the mother, in the bardo, results in a male birth and affinity for the father in the bardo results in a female birth.
There is an assertion, made in this thread by me, that Tibetan tulkus are coerced into homosexuality in an effort to secure for them, rebirth as a male. I could be completely wrong about that.
As Namdru points out, it would run counter to the natural process as explained by the Bardo Thodol or Tbetan Book of the Dead.
On the other hand, if my assertion is true, how might the process work? Is the Bardo Thodol an accurate description of the process of rebirth, or does it withhold details of the process?
Accepting the process as described by the Bardo Thodol would seem to imply that the norm is that the vast majority of boys are reincarnated as boys and the vast majority of girls are reincarnated as girls.
In order for a female being in the bardo to be reborn as a male it would have to have an attraction for the female parent. For a male being in the bardo, an attraction for the male parent would be necessary for it to be born as a female.
For a female being in the bardo to be attracted to the mother would imply a lesbian being in the bardo. Similarly, a male being in the bardo, attracted to the father must be homosexual.
Thus it would appear that homosexuality would be the route to a change of sex at rebirth.
Coercing homosexuality would thus appear be contraindicated, as a strategy of insuring that male tulkus be reborn as males.
Do the Tibetans promote monastic homosexuality simply as a way of avoiding "girl trouble" among the monks? Probably. I would bet that is part of it, but I think there is something deeper going on with the tulkus.
I am left with the problem of the comment made by my guru.
"You become what you like."
I think the key to the issue is the question of when you become what you like.
I think you "become what you like", during your life, before your body dies.
I think you create, by "liking", during your present life, the form you will take in your next life, and it is this form that is attracted to one parent or the other in the bardo. It is this form, the behavior of which is described in the Bardo Thodol.
If, for example, you are a guy who likes girls, then according to the usual interpretation of the Bardo Thodol, in the bardo, after death, you will be attracted to your future mother and be reborn as a male.
However, if you are a guy who likes girls and has created a form, female, ("what you like") and this female form in the bardo is attracted to the male parent, you will be born as a female, even if you liked girls in your previous life!
That is how, "You become what you like."
That information would not normally be available to the average reader of the Bardo Thodol, but it would be available to advanced Tibetan masters in monasteries, intent on making sure that their tulkus were born male, by getting them to "like" the male form through coerced homosexuality so that this form is created in them and travels through the bardo to the tulku's next birth.
I think that is why tulkus are sometimes (perhaps not always) coerced into homosexuality.
Because of the context of the tulku system, this strategic homosexuality qualifies as an element of "Tibetanism".
I know that this is a not a complete account of sexuality in Tibetan Buddhism. I think this is a strategy being pursued by some people in some situations some places.
The Tibetan Book of the Dead is in accord with this, when it says that affinity for the mother, in the bardo, results in a male birth and affinity for the father in the bardo results in a female birth.
There is an assertion, made in this thread by me, that Tibetan tulkus are coerced into homosexuality in an effort to secure for them, rebirth as a male. I could be completely wrong about that.
As Namdru points out, it would run counter to the natural process as explained by the Bardo Thodol or Tbetan Book of the Dead.
On the other hand, if my assertion is true, how might the process work? Is the Bardo Thodol an accurate description of the process of rebirth, or does it withhold details of the process?
Accepting the process as described by the Bardo Thodol would seem to imply that the norm is that the vast majority of boys are reincarnated as boys and the vast majority of girls are reincarnated as girls.
In order for a female being in the bardo to be reborn as a male it would have to have an attraction for the female parent. For a male being in the bardo, an attraction for the male parent would be necessary for it to be born as a female.
For a female being in the bardo to be attracted to the mother would imply a lesbian being in the bardo. Similarly, a male being in the bardo, attracted to the father must be homosexual.
Thus it would appear that homosexuality would be the route to a change of sex at rebirth.
Coercing homosexuality would thus appear be contraindicated, as a strategy of insuring that male tulkus be reborn as males.
Do the Tibetans promote monastic homosexuality simply as a way of avoiding "girl trouble" among the monks? Probably. I would bet that is part of it, but I think there is something deeper going on with the tulkus.
I am left with the problem of the comment made by my guru.
"You become what you like."
I think the key to the issue is the question of when you become what you like.
I think you "become what you like", during your life, before your body dies.
I think you create, by "liking", during your present life, the form you will take in your next life, and it is this form that is attracted to one parent or the other in the bardo. It is this form, the behavior of which is described in the Bardo Thodol.
If, for example, you are a guy who likes girls, then according to the usual interpretation of the Bardo Thodol, in the bardo, after death, you will be attracted to your future mother and be reborn as a male.
However, if you are a guy who likes girls and has created a form, female, ("what you like") and this female form in the bardo is attracted to the male parent, you will be born as a female, even if you liked girls in your previous life!
That is how, "You become what you like."
That information would not normally be available to the average reader of the Bardo Thodol, but it would be available to advanced Tibetan masters in monasteries, intent on making sure that their tulkus were born male, by getting them to "like" the male form through coerced homosexuality so that this form is created in them and travels through the bardo to the tulku's next birth.
I think that is why tulkus are sometimes (perhaps not always) coerced into homosexuality.
Because of the context of the tulku system, this strategic homosexuality qualifies as an element of "Tibetanism".
I know that this is a not a complete account of sexuality in Tibetan Buddhism. I think this is a strategy being pursued by some people in some situations some places.
edit on 7-10-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
"But Ippy", you might say, "the Dalai Lama is a good person. He's like the Pope, only Buddhist. Everybody loves him, and what about all those
academics who learn Tibetan and translate Tibetan Buddhist texts into English. They have gurus too. They practice Tibetan Buddhism and they don't say
anything like what you are saying. What about Professor August Harvard? What about all those western den mother types in their sensible clothes and
Birkenstocks with their malas wrapped around their wrists? None of these people say the things you are saying."
To which I would reply, "That's true. Curious isn't it? Why would that be?"
In fact, I believe that all of these people, who know a lot about Tibetan Buddhism, are psychically restrained and prevented from uttering what they know is true about this practice.
There is a reason why Zen masters don't take Vajrayana initiation. The "Dharmapalas" with their multiple hands full of implements, often weapons, are there to "protect the Dharma", from people who criticize it or who challenge the authority of the lineage.
If Professor Harvard or one of the Birkenstocked den mothers were to start to think or speak objectively, critically, about Vajrayana Buddhism, Dharmapalas, implanted through "empowerments" would run amok in their minds. They would be brought to heel. They have been brought to heel, every one of them.
"But Ippy, you haven't been brought to heel. You bring up sensitive subjects in Tibetan Buddhism and speak your mind about them. How come you can do that and Professor Harvard can't?"
"It's a long and terrifying story. I'm not sure I can tell it at the moment. Bear with me."
For quite some time now there has been difficulty between the Dalai Lama and Geshe Kelzang Gyatso. Both of these persons are very great lamas and very learned.
The difficulty is focused on a Dharmapala, Dorje Shugden.
I haven't really followed this controversy in detail. Invoking Dorje Shugden has been going on for more than a couple of hundred years. My understanding is that he first appeared among lineage holders of the Sakya sect but that he was expelled from the Sakya monastery where he appeared. His bona fides were determined to be wanting. He wasn't considered to be "enlightened", but only a powerful spirit, with a potential to be misused, as a weapon, by people involved in disputes. He was considered to be too dangerous.
However, as we in the modern world know all too well, there is always somebody eager to take possession of a weapon that is too dangerous to be used.
Dorje Shugden is often referred to as a "worldly protector" and usually holds a wavy sword, or "butcher's stick" (in this case) in his right hand and a heart (?!!) in his left hand. Sometimes the heart is explained by saying that it signifies his willingness to "give his heart" to the practitioner.
(This is reminiscent of the sometime explanations of all the pins and needles stuck in the cloth around a statue of a Dharmapala, and there are many Dharmapalas, placed there by his practitioners, to "sharpen the mind". Very amusing.)
www.himalayanart.org...
Anyway, a couple of hundred years later, Dorje Shugden is still around, and still being invoked, particularly by lamas of the Gelugpa sect. There is quite a contingent of "Shugden practitioners" among the Gelugpas, but don't for a moment think that lamas of other sects are not invoking Dorje Shugden on the sly.
Dorje Shugden, a famous felon in the eyes of the Dalai Lama and many Tibetans, is the perfect weapon to be used to attack an enemy, by a lama of any sect, because the victim of the attack (we're talking lamas here, not ordinary clueless people) will automatically blame it on a Shugden practitioner, and not on the real culprit, someone of their own sect.
It gets tricky.
It should be pointed out that while the original Dorje Shugden, kicked out by the Sakyas, may not have been enlightened, in the couple of hundred years of Shugden practice, he may have become enlightened.
Geshe Kelzang Gyatso believes that Dorje Shugden is enlightened and that the Dalai Lama is wrong about Dorje Shugden.
Geshe Kelzang Gyatso has said in the past, and I want to be careful here to make it clear that I am paraphrasing, not quoting directly, he has said that it is impossible to criticize the Dalai Lama and remain in Tibetan society.
He has started his own subset of the Gelugpa sect, which carries on the practice associated with Dorje Shugden, over the objections of the Dalai Lama. Shugden practioners have been ostracized in the Tibetan community in India. There have been violent clashes between the Shugden practicing community and the main body of the Tibetan community, loyal to the Dalai Lama.
I don't follow these things very closely, but it is clear that there is a significant disagreement between the Dalai Lama and Geshe Kelzang Gyatso.
The ostensible issue is that the Dalai Lama has forbidden the invoking of Dorje Shugden, and the disagreement is being "prosecuted" on that basis, but I don't think Dorje Shugden is the problem. It is something else.
One thinks of the current confrontation between the United States and North Korea. The disagreement is being prosecuted on the issue of nuclear weapons, but the real issues concern the clinging of the Kim Dynasty to power in North Korea. I don't know if that is a direct analogy, point for point, but it is somewhat relevant, I think, and helps to illustrate the current topic.
Dharmapalas are not a trivial part of Vajrayana. They are there to "protect the Dharma" and the meaning of that is largely interpreted by the meditator who invokes the Dharmapala.
They are generally used in meditation to protect the meditator from malicious or silly interfering spirits. Dharmapalas can shoo them back to where they belong. Dharmapalas can also be used to protect the lineage or the practitioner from psychic attack from serious malevolent spiritual aggressors.
A very dangerous Dharmapala, invoked by a very dangerous lama, can be a considerable hazard to anybody, even somebody in sensible clothes and Birkenstocks, or with an advanced degree from a prestigious university.
To which I would reply, "That's true. Curious isn't it? Why would that be?"
In fact, I believe that all of these people, who know a lot about Tibetan Buddhism, are psychically restrained and prevented from uttering what they know is true about this practice.
There is a reason why Zen masters don't take Vajrayana initiation. The "Dharmapalas" with their multiple hands full of implements, often weapons, are there to "protect the Dharma", from people who criticize it or who challenge the authority of the lineage.
If Professor Harvard or one of the Birkenstocked den mothers were to start to think or speak objectively, critically, about Vajrayana Buddhism, Dharmapalas, implanted through "empowerments" would run amok in their minds. They would be brought to heel. They have been brought to heel, every one of them.
"But Ippy, you haven't been brought to heel. You bring up sensitive subjects in Tibetan Buddhism and speak your mind about them. How come you can do that and Professor Harvard can't?"
"It's a long and terrifying story. I'm not sure I can tell it at the moment. Bear with me."
For quite some time now there has been difficulty between the Dalai Lama and Geshe Kelzang Gyatso. Both of these persons are very great lamas and very learned.
The difficulty is focused on a Dharmapala, Dorje Shugden.
I haven't really followed this controversy in detail. Invoking Dorje Shugden has been going on for more than a couple of hundred years. My understanding is that he first appeared among lineage holders of the Sakya sect but that he was expelled from the Sakya monastery where he appeared. His bona fides were determined to be wanting. He wasn't considered to be "enlightened", but only a powerful spirit, with a potential to be misused, as a weapon, by people involved in disputes. He was considered to be too dangerous.
However, as we in the modern world know all too well, there is always somebody eager to take possession of a weapon that is too dangerous to be used.
Dorje Shugden is often referred to as a "worldly protector" and usually holds a wavy sword, or "butcher's stick" (in this case) in his right hand and a heart (?!!) in his left hand. Sometimes the heart is explained by saying that it signifies his willingness to "give his heart" to the practitioner.
(This is reminiscent of the sometime explanations of all the pins and needles stuck in the cloth around a statue of a Dharmapala, and there are many Dharmapalas, placed there by his practitioners, to "sharpen the mind". Very amusing.)
www.himalayanart.org...
Anyway, a couple of hundred years later, Dorje Shugden is still around, and still being invoked, particularly by lamas of the Gelugpa sect. There is quite a contingent of "Shugden practitioners" among the Gelugpas, but don't for a moment think that lamas of other sects are not invoking Dorje Shugden on the sly.
Dorje Shugden, a famous felon in the eyes of the Dalai Lama and many Tibetans, is the perfect weapon to be used to attack an enemy, by a lama of any sect, because the victim of the attack (we're talking lamas here, not ordinary clueless people) will automatically blame it on a Shugden practitioner, and not on the real culprit, someone of their own sect.
It gets tricky.
It should be pointed out that while the original Dorje Shugden, kicked out by the Sakyas, may not have been enlightened, in the couple of hundred years of Shugden practice, he may have become enlightened.
Geshe Kelzang Gyatso believes that Dorje Shugden is enlightened and that the Dalai Lama is wrong about Dorje Shugden.
Geshe Kelzang Gyatso has said in the past, and I want to be careful here to make it clear that I am paraphrasing, not quoting directly, he has said that it is impossible to criticize the Dalai Lama and remain in Tibetan society.
He has started his own subset of the Gelugpa sect, which carries on the practice associated with Dorje Shugden, over the objections of the Dalai Lama. Shugden practioners have been ostracized in the Tibetan community in India. There have been violent clashes between the Shugden practicing community and the main body of the Tibetan community, loyal to the Dalai Lama.
I don't follow these things very closely, but it is clear that there is a significant disagreement between the Dalai Lama and Geshe Kelzang Gyatso.
The ostensible issue is that the Dalai Lama has forbidden the invoking of Dorje Shugden, and the disagreement is being "prosecuted" on that basis, but I don't think Dorje Shugden is the problem. It is something else.
One thinks of the current confrontation between the United States and North Korea. The disagreement is being prosecuted on the issue of nuclear weapons, but the real issues concern the clinging of the Kim Dynasty to power in North Korea. I don't know if that is a direct analogy, point for point, but it is somewhat relevant, I think, and helps to illustrate the current topic.
Dharmapalas are not a trivial part of Vajrayana. They are there to "protect the Dharma" and the meaning of that is largely interpreted by the meditator who invokes the Dharmapala.
They are generally used in meditation to protect the meditator from malicious or silly interfering spirits. Dharmapalas can shoo them back to where they belong. Dharmapalas can also be used to protect the lineage or the practitioner from psychic attack from serious malevolent spiritual aggressors.
A very dangerous Dharmapala, invoked by a very dangerous lama, can be a considerable hazard to anybody, even somebody in sensible clothes and Birkenstocks, or with an advanced degree from a prestigious university.
edit on 8-10-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ipsedixit
There is no unity in Tibetan Buddhism due to those sects; everywhere else it is pretty much unified... in China it is Chan which later when it moved into Japan became Zen the road was thought lost afterwards... Thailand and the forest tradition picked it back up at it's core.
The Buddha thought most around at the time acted like children... in contrast one teacher of the dhamma has said followers are like puppies every little thing they run to you and expect you to lick them clean instead of taking the path as the buddha did after he could learn no more from his teachers... where they sit through and experience and gain that wisdom and insight themselves instead of running around looking for verification and vilification of their own personal practice.
A fletcher makes an arrow straight... when you sit and wander around you are spiraling, when you sit and that circular or spiraling ceases then one finally sits, until then? It is two sitting, self and other... make no self sit and dream while you get up go take care of reality.
If someone does not know what that is just by seeing? Why say something... because you assume their ears want to hear it?
There is no unity in Tibetan Buddhism due to those sects; everywhere else it is pretty much unified... in China it is Chan which later when it moved into Japan became Zen the road was thought lost afterwards... Thailand and the forest tradition picked it back up at it's core.
The Buddha thought most around at the time acted like children... in contrast one teacher of the dhamma has said followers are like puppies every little thing they run to you and expect you to lick them clean instead of taking the path as the buddha did after he could learn no more from his teachers... where they sit through and experience and gain that wisdom and insight themselves instead of running around looking for verification and vilification of their own personal practice.
A fletcher makes an arrow straight... when you sit and wander around you are spiraling, when you sit and that circular or spiraling ceases then one finally sits, until then? It is two sitting, self and other... make no self sit and dream while you get up go take care of reality.
If someone does not know what that is just by seeing? Why say something... because you assume their ears want to hear it?
a reply to: ipsedixit
About the Dorje Sudgen business specifically; Dorje Chan think about it... Chan Chinese the passing of the dhamma off the right hand side through the seven peaks of Manjushuri or Manchuria and on into Chan (means both mind and beer) as the diamond or thunderbolt vehicle(vajra)... Did the Buddha Gautama say specifically who was the next Buddha? Yes and no, Arhats that have developed the 10 perfections are equal to the Historical Buddha... after the dhamma is well established?
They the buddhas, prattyekka and arhat step back into the link of becoming; until the dhamma hits a wall; Bodhidhamma was Maitreya in an incarnation, Dorje Chan an incarnation of Manjushuri Dorje Shudgen is the right hand or dhamma protector of Manjushuri from the Northern paradise of Yoruichi Buddha in Japanese history incarnated as the blind swordsman the one that allowed needle and thread for when the lineage got thin it could be stitched up... so that one robe/one bowl still was effectual dhamma.
So the schism has been... Bon mixing with buddhism the same as Thai mixing with Buddhism has the nature spirit energies also tied into it which does and can turn into the black magic sort of business where laiety try to buy their way out of kamma the same way christians try to buy their way out of hell.
A sutta makes it very clear... the very thought of gaining merit of any sort automatically destroys any and all good or positive kamma that would come from it. Meaning since it is not an act of metta and true dana due to such? Nothing comes from it just an empty act or an empty vessel looking to be filled... of course the koan empty your cup becomes a literal or direct pointing that... it is already full and what it is already full of is error or wrong grasping.
Kamma is individual first and foremost; then it is inherited... how is it inherited? Well taking something as wisdom is not giving something that is wisdom. Meaning stupid remains stupid and in a blind leading the blind situation? All it does it build more and more stupidity and dullness of beings.
Grasping the wrong wire in electricity can electrocute someone, making sure the power is off? There is no wrong wire.
Thats what the workers parties and what power to the people means... making sure the power or ego trip is off, or else all wires are the wrong wires.
Simple cause and effect... of course in unture cause and effect in the human world(the one of opposites) there is always duality occurring in self or other, so the way to properly debate must be learned.
If someone is debating with rote knowledge, passed from ones mouth to anothers ear? Consider that knowledge poison, not from the one passing it unless intentionally trying to deceive like a paid actor. If one is passing it along not knowing it is wrong knowledge then that poison goes back to those responsible for it being the wrong knowledge as it is intentional kamma meaning the chain of inheritance of it breaks when that stupid term of "indoctrination" comes up.
Think of that as someone playing "doctor" someone acting a role they are not fit for; due to learned hate in such passing? There are such things as that being passed along called affirmative action or no child left behind. So those hating someone by a simple difference they never chose? Brings all sorts of unqualified people in to then play "doctor" well do you want a real one or one appointed because some cant get their hate together?
In such a case? NONE is the correct answer.
When it becomes a situation of neither either? Then there arises no place to dwell in the human realm as it has been flooded over by poor public ethic and or a lack of personal morality. Morals and ethics are not the same thing; one is public and one is private one is for the masses that are dhammas now called laws and personal is morals ones personally held beliefs in whatever that is they believe in. There is a time and place means if there is not a time or place set aside for something? Then it is going to occur elsewhere... so laws trying to force moral good(religious ideology) on the public is not ethical. It also is not moral to force them in a public situation... it causes a stir or a commotion, so in such a case? It is best one just leaves keeping their personal morals and or ethics intact.
Social norms eventually become a norm and if thought it was a good thing? Fear turns it into a law not wanting to lose what was thought of as a good thing; and then it becomes a mandate for all... until of course such laws are over turned.
That is just the over all norm as humanity living and working together no matter where in the world one could or may happen to find themselves.
Separation from the norms or social ethics and laws one is used too? Is what is called an itenerate or mendicant... when this happens in waves? Like those fleeing war other cultures try their best to absorb them... create plans in order to try and help... much like setting up a sea wall to prevent erosion.
Of course erosion of the people and their constitutions occur from being taught improperly. Ideals are unattainable; plan your whole day out and it becomes an expectation that absolutely nothing else will arise other than those plans... then what occurs when other things arise? They get super pissed off and angry upset that their selfishness is not going the way they planned it; meaning they have lost one of the 10 perfections (Patience) what are they losing it with? Everything not according to their plan.
This even occurs in regular old sitting meditation; someone plans their sitting; bought a bunch of candles and crap as if their house is a temple instead of going to the temple or donating that sort of thing to them... then get pissed off at the phone the neighbors lawn mower etc so such as that sort of hell can be seen that there first is an assumption... then an expectation.
So is it any wonder trying to manipulate the future that has not yet arisen is going to throw all of those teachers of kammic lesson at you? And you're pissed off about it? Lol such a thing should humble you instead that the enlightened beings are so benevolent to deny your selfish manipulation and teach you.
So buy your way into heaven? The humility of accepting those lessons as they arise is the very ground of the path itself.
So Tibet why all of the houses; or sects? I dont know you teach the same thing yes; China did you a favor in teaching as the same thing is what first divided Korea. Power struggles houses or sects that could not get along so divided amongst themselves they all like Rome? Fall.
Even the US seen as a gold rush everyone was excited to flock to the grand melting pot to make their fortunes the land of freedom and opportunity and well still fights others trying to maintain that status even though no longer true(likely due to such clinging as an identity) it was seen as the best place to incarnate; so of course thats what was instructed of many Buddhists masters to incarnate into the US when it was time to let go.
So of course Tulku which I do not agree with; as it is the same as the Magi and Christ business identifying him as such... The viniya states 20 years of age for monastics; dhamma/kamma to begin at the last council.
Some are more like orphanages; from failures of the state in Buddhist countries more like schools, so it is important to guard against abuse as has seen in other "faiths".
About the Dorje Sudgen business specifically; Dorje Chan think about it... Chan Chinese the passing of the dhamma off the right hand side through the seven peaks of Manjushuri or Manchuria and on into Chan (means both mind and beer) as the diamond or thunderbolt vehicle(vajra)... Did the Buddha Gautama say specifically who was the next Buddha? Yes and no, Arhats that have developed the 10 perfections are equal to the Historical Buddha... after the dhamma is well established?
They the buddhas, prattyekka and arhat step back into the link of becoming; until the dhamma hits a wall; Bodhidhamma was Maitreya in an incarnation, Dorje Chan an incarnation of Manjushuri Dorje Shudgen is the right hand or dhamma protector of Manjushuri from the Northern paradise of Yoruichi Buddha in Japanese history incarnated as the blind swordsman the one that allowed needle and thread for when the lineage got thin it could be stitched up... so that one robe/one bowl still was effectual dhamma.
So the schism has been... Bon mixing with buddhism the same as Thai mixing with Buddhism has the nature spirit energies also tied into it which does and can turn into the black magic sort of business where laiety try to buy their way out of kamma the same way christians try to buy their way out of hell.
A sutta makes it very clear... the very thought of gaining merit of any sort automatically destroys any and all good or positive kamma that would come from it. Meaning since it is not an act of metta and true dana due to such? Nothing comes from it just an empty act or an empty vessel looking to be filled... of course the koan empty your cup becomes a literal or direct pointing that... it is already full and what it is already full of is error or wrong grasping.
Kamma is individual first and foremost; then it is inherited... how is it inherited? Well taking something as wisdom is not giving something that is wisdom. Meaning stupid remains stupid and in a blind leading the blind situation? All it does it build more and more stupidity and dullness of beings.
Grasping the wrong wire in electricity can electrocute someone, making sure the power is off? There is no wrong wire.
Thats what the workers parties and what power to the people means... making sure the power or ego trip is off, or else all wires are the wrong wires.
Simple cause and effect... of course in unture cause and effect in the human world(the one of opposites) there is always duality occurring in self or other, so the way to properly debate must be learned.
If someone is debating with rote knowledge, passed from ones mouth to anothers ear? Consider that knowledge poison, not from the one passing it unless intentionally trying to deceive like a paid actor. If one is passing it along not knowing it is wrong knowledge then that poison goes back to those responsible for it being the wrong knowledge as it is intentional kamma meaning the chain of inheritance of it breaks when that stupid term of "indoctrination" comes up.
Think of that as someone playing "doctor" someone acting a role they are not fit for; due to learned hate in such passing? There are such things as that being passed along called affirmative action or no child left behind. So those hating someone by a simple difference they never chose? Brings all sorts of unqualified people in to then play "doctor" well do you want a real one or one appointed because some cant get their hate together?
In such a case? NONE is the correct answer.
When it becomes a situation of neither either? Then there arises no place to dwell in the human realm as it has been flooded over by poor public ethic and or a lack of personal morality. Morals and ethics are not the same thing; one is public and one is private one is for the masses that are dhammas now called laws and personal is morals ones personally held beliefs in whatever that is they believe in. There is a time and place means if there is not a time or place set aside for something? Then it is going to occur elsewhere... so laws trying to force moral good(religious ideology) on the public is not ethical. It also is not moral to force them in a public situation... it causes a stir or a commotion, so in such a case? It is best one just leaves keeping their personal morals and or ethics intact.
Social norms eventually become a norm and if thought it was a good thing? Fear turns it into a law not wanting to lose what was thought of as a good thing; and then it becomes a mandate for all... until of course such laws are over turned.
That is just the over all norm as humanity living and working together no matter where in the world one could or may happen to find themselves.
Separation from the norms or social ethics and laws one is used too? Is what is called an itenerate or mendicant... when this happens in waves? Like those fleeing war other cultures try their best to absorb them... create plans in order to try and help... much like setting up a sea wall to prevent erosion.
Of course erosion of the people and their constitutions occur from being taught improperly. Ideals are unattainable; plan your whole day out and it becomes an expectation that absolutely nothing else will arise other than those plans... then what occurs when other things arise? They get super pissed off and angry upset that their selfishness is not going the way they planned it; meaning they have lost one of the 10 perfections (Patience) what are they losing it with? Everything not according to their plan.
This even occurs in regular old sitting meditation; someone plans their sitting; bought a bunch of candles and crap as if their house is a temple instead of going to the temple or donating that sort of thing to them... then get pissed off at the phone the neighbors lawn mower etc so such as that sort of hell can be seen that there first is an assumption... then an expectation.
So is it any wonder trying to manipulate the future that has not yet arisen is going to throw all of those teachers of kammic lesson at you? And you're pissed off about it? Lol such a thing should humble you instead that the enlightened beings are so benevolent to deny your selfish manipulation and teach you.
So buy your way into heaven? The humility of accepting those lessons as they arise is the very ground of the path itself.
So Tibet why all of the houses; or sects? I dont know you teach the same thing yes; China did you a favor in teaching as the same thing is what first divided Korea. Power struggles houses or sects that could not get along so divided amongst themselves they all like Rome? Fall.
Even the US seen as a gold rush everyone was excited to flock to the grand melting pot to make their fortunes the land of freedom and opportunity and well still fights others trying to maintain that status even though no longer true(likely due to such clinging as an identity) it was seen as the best place to incarnate; so of course thats what was instructed of many Buddhists masters to incarnate into the US when it was time to let go.
So of course Tulku which I do not agree with; as it is the same as the Magi and Christ business identifying him as such... The viniya states 20 years of age for monastics; dhamma/kamma to begin at the last council.
Some are more like orphanages; from failures of the state in Buddhist countries more like schools, so it is important to guard against abuse as has seen in other "faiths".
Part One
The Buddha in the sermon in the Simsapa Grove made it very clear that he had limited the extent of his teaching, omitting a very large number of things,
Hundreds of years before Buddhism came to Tibet, large numbers in subsequent generations of Buddha's followers, went "over the wall".
Buddhism incorporated shamanic practices into itself very early, undoubtedly for psychic defensive military purposes. After a period, a generation or two of this, "enlightened" Yidams and Dharmapalas would have emerged.
Further excursions into "the forest of leaves" revealed insights that could be put to a wide variety of uses. Tantric Buddhism emerged, with its well known employment of sexual energy in meditation.
More important, though, was the lesser known aspect of "tantra", signified by the actual meaning of the word i.e., "thread", which was used to denote "continuity" in the all pervasive sense referred to by Gampopa in the Jewel Ornament, but particularly from life to life.
This is the most important political aspect of the practice of the Tibetan lineages and directly connected to the tulku system.
Despite diverging from the Buddha's injunction to work out your own salvation with diligence and to stay away from the multitude of leaves in the forest, the gathering of leaves and the logical and practical consequences of that gathering continued. It remained religious, but the notion of what was religious became more elastic and political.
Attempting to preserve this "religious" character and keep the Vajrayana from devolving into a system of straight spirit propitiation and coercion, no different from Shamanism, where there is less quality control on the mental state of the spirits involved, became a concern, hence the continuing controversy around the invoking of Dorje Shugden.
It is well known that power corrupts, but less well known that power expands until checked, always.
Vajrayana implemented a guidance system of "samaya bonds" designed to protect practitioners from themselves, from one another and to protect the lineages from rogue practitioners. The samaya bonds are part of the mutual commitment undertaken when one receives empowerment, and induction into a specific Vajrayana practice.
en.wikipedia.org...
In Tibetan Buddhism there are limits on what is taught, but also, which should be of concern to freedom loving western students, on what one is practically allowed to know and still be able to do the meditation practice.
These limits are not only related to assessments of what the student is ready and prepared for. They can exclude things which will interfere with one's practice of meditation or the practice of a fellow Vajrayana initiate. This can be determined by the guru and monitored and even policed, psychically.
Conceptualizing and "thinking" is generally frowned upon. Rote learning, of texts and commentaries for example, and devotion are encouraged.
The limits on what one does with the mind are dependent upon what is in the interest of the lineage hierarchy and most importantly on what is in the interest of one's progress in meditation in the estimation of one's guru.
Trungpa Rinpoche had a quip about gurus minding one's business more intensely than one minded one's own business. From my own experience, that is quite accurate and sometimes highly irritating.
Attempts to go beyond the limits enforced by the lineage hierarchy, or the categories of efficacious and non efficacious mental states listed in the Abhidharma, in one's personal mental activity, can provoke mental harassment from one's teacher and even "Dharmapala attacks" unleashed by one's "vajra brothers and sisters" if one's "offenses" are egregious and disturbing enough.
This kind of thing is distinctly Tibetan, as far as I know. It probably did happen among Vajrayanists in India though, and was probably related to being part of a "mandala" of students, mentally connected to one another, and therefore potentially liable to disturbance by the mental activity of one another.
It is exacerbated by the tightness of the Tibetan lineage based social groupings. Being controlled and limited is a possibility from multiple sources of supervision and potential disapprobation. This kind of thing is not overt and wouldn't be detected by most people. Advanced meditators would run into it and so might first class conceptualists.
The Buddha in the sermon in the Simsapa Grove made it very clear that he had limited the extent of his teaching, omitting a very large number of things,
Because they bring no benefit, no advancement in the Holy Life, and because they do not lead to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana.
Hundreds of years before Buddhism came to Tibet, large numbers in subsequent generations of Buddha's followers, went "over the wall".
Buddhism incorporated shamanic practices into itself very early, undoubtedly for psychic defensive military purposes. After a period, a generation or two of this, "enlightened" Yidams and Dharmapalas would have emerged.
Further excursions into "the forest of leaves" revealed insights that could be put to a wide variety of uses. Tantric Buddhism emerged, with its well known employment of sexual energy in meditation.
More important, though, was the lesser known aspect of "tantra", signified by the actual meaning of the word i.e., "thread", which was used to denote "continuity" in the all pervasive sense referred to by Gampopa in the Jewel Ornament, but particularly from life to life.
This is the most important political aspect of the practice of the Tibetan lineages and directly connected to the tulku system.
Despite diverging from the Buddha's injunction to work out your own salvation with diligence and to stay away from the multitude of leaves in the forest, the gathering of leaves and the logical and practical consequences of that gathering continued. It remained religious, but the notion of what was religious became more elastic and political.
Attempting to preserve this "religious" character and keep the Vajrayana from devolving into a system of straight spirit propitiation and coercion, no different from Shamanism, where there is less quality control on the mental state of the spirits involved, became a concern, hence the continuing controversy around the invoking of Dorje Shugden.
It is well known that power corrupts, but less well known that power expands until checked, always.
Vajrayana implemented a guidance system of "samaya bonds" designed to protect practitioners from themselves, from one another and to protect the lineages from rogue practitioners. The samaya bonds are part of the mutual commitment undertaken when one receives empowerment, and induction into a specific Vajrayana practice.
en.wikipedia.org...
In one of the most widely followed teachings on samaya, Sakya Pandita, a preeminent 12th century Tibetan Buddhism scholar, outlined fourteen primary points of observance to consider in keeping one's samaya vow pure.[3]
1. Disrespecting the vajra master.
2. Transgressing the words of the buddhas.
3. Insulting one's vajra brothers and sisters.
4. Abandoning love for sentient beings.
5. Abandoning the bodhichitta in aspiration or application.
6. Criticizing the teachings of the sutras and tantras.
7. Revealing secrets to those who are unworthy.
8. Mistreating one's body.
9. Rejecting emptiness.
10. Keeping bad company.
11. Failing to reflect on emptiness.
12. Upsetting those who have faith in the teachings.
13. Failing to observe the samaya commitments.
14. Denigrating women.
In Tibetan Buddhism there are limits on what is taught, but also, which should be of concern to freedom loving western students, on what one is practically allowed to know and still be able to do the meditation practice.
These limits are not only related to assessments of what the student is ready and prepared for. They can exclude things which will interfere with one's practice of meditation or the practice of a fellow Vajrayana initiate. This can be determined by the guru and monitored and even policed, psychically.
Conceptualizing and "thinking" is generally frowned upon. Rote learning, of texts and commentaries for example, and devotion are encouraged.
The limits on what one does with the mind are dependent upon what is in the interest of the lineage hierarchy and most importantly on what is in the interest of one's progress in meditation in the estimation of one's guru.
Trungpa Rinpoche had a quip about gurus minding one's business more intensely than one minded one's own business. From my own experience, that is quite accurate and sometimes highly irritating.
Attempts to go beyond the limits enforced by the lineage hierarchy, or the categories of efficacious and non efficacious mental states listed in the Abhidharma, in one's personal mental activity, can provoke mental harassment from one's teacher and even "Dharmapala attacks" unleashed by one's "vajra brothers and sisters" if one's "offenses" are egregious and disturbing enough.
This kind of thing is distinctly Tibetan, as far as I know. It probably did happen among Vajrayanists in India though, and was probably related to being part of a "mandala" of students, mentally connected to one another, and therefore potentially liable to disturbance by the mental activity of one another.
It is exacerbated by the tightness of the Tibetan lineage based social groupings. Being controlled and limited is a possibility from multiple sources of supervision and potential disapprobation. This kind of thing is not overt and wouldn't be detected by most people. Advanced meditators would run into it and so might first class conceptualists.
Part Two
This is a serious thing for such people, research scientists in certain very demanding mental disciplines like mathematics for example. They should not enter Vajrayana practice without being forewarned of the possible consequences to their "conceptual" activities.
It is clear from this that although Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism might seem to hold promise for the "human potential" movement, it is a potentially dangerous side road on the way, that inserts authoritarian political control and psychic military discipline on the road to Enlightenment.
This is a complete departure from the reserved wisdom and restraint and self discipline displayed, and enjoined of others, by the Buddha.
Vajrayana can lead to deep insight and realization of fundamental truths about our human condition, but the price paid for the achievement is acquiescence to a benevolent (most of the time) religious totalitarianism.
The study of the "material" world is settling upon mathematics as its most penetrating and revealing tool.
In the current climate of warmth and interest in Tibetan Buddhism, with its flashy promotional style, it will not be too long before the study of the mental world will very likely settle upon meditation and most likely the meditation of the Buddha as its most penetrating and revealing tool.
There is already that interest, and Tibetan lamas have made appearances in scientific labs to demonstrate "heat yoga" and the like, hooked up to electronic monitoring apparatus.
This is just the beginning.
Just as Vajrayana lamas gravitated to the political leadership of Tibet, eventually becoming the titular political leadership themselves, or gravitated to Kublai Khan in ancient times, they are gravitating to seats of political power in the West.
They are emissaries of oligarchy and will support oligarchy as well as disseminate the teaching of the Buddha under layers of Vajrayana leaves gathered from the forest.
Vajrayana, in its manifestation as Tibetanism, has become a religion heavily mixed with political impulses and motives and consequences. It has a thoroughgoing political character.
The idea of Nirvana in Vajrayana Buddhism is that the "whole of reality" manifests in one way, as populated by various forms of sentient beings dominated by the Buddhist hierarchy of enlightened beings as yidams, spirits and enlightened masters, including the Buddha himself.
Scientific reality can come into one's awareness but it is of secondary importance to the maintenance of awareness of reality as "Nirvana", as just described.
The idea that "it" can fit into a single cell, or the idea that one can observe, manipulate and repair the micro circuitry of the brain mentally, or the idea that one can observe a strand of one's own DNA dividing, are of the scientific sort, curiosities in the Vajrayana context, and no more.
The notion that a famous scientist, like Michio Kaku, for instance, could have deceased mathematicians present in his brain, assisting him to make mathematical connections, is odd in the Western scientific, materialistic world, but even in that world one occasionally hears rumors of "spirit helpers" or "scientific dream work" being accomplished.
This sort of thing has been a part of Vajrayana Buddhism for almost two thousand years and part of spirit religions for tens of thousands of years.
The reality of the situation is that the "Vajrayana context", the context of Tibetan Buddhism and of "Tibetanism" is merging with the context of advanced Western scientific materialism.
There will be consequences and they will be as serious as those which resulted from the first incursions of Vajrayana practice and thought into the quite circumscribed teachings of the Buddha.
This is a serious thing for such people, research scientists in certain very demanding mental disciplines like mathematics for example. They should not enter Vajrayana practice without being forewarned of the possible consequences to their "conceptual" activities.
It is clear from this that although Tibetan Vajrayana Buddhism might seem to hold promise for the "human potential" movement, it is a potentially dangerous side road on the way, that inserts authoritarian political control and psychic military discipline on the road to Enlightenment.
This is a complete departure from the reserved wisdom and restraint and self discipline displayed, and enjoined of others, by the Buddha.
Vajrayana can lead to deep insight and realization of fundamental truths about our human condition, but the price paid for the achievement is acquiescence to a benevolent (most of the time) religious totalitarianism.
The study of the "material" world is settling upon mathematics as its most penetrating and revealing tool.
In the current climate of warmth and interest in Tibetan Buddhism, with its flashy promotional style, it will not be too long before the study of the mental world will very likely settle upon meditation and most likely the meditation of the Buddha as its most penetrating and revealing tool.
There is already that interest, and Tibetan lamas have made appearances in scientific labs to demonstrate "heat yoga" and the like, hooked up to electronic monitoring apparatus.
This is just the beginning.
Just as Vajrayana lamas gravitated to the political leadership of Tibet, eventually becoming the titular political leadership themselves, or gravitated to Kublai Khan in ancient times, they are gravitating to seats of political power in the West.
They are emissaries of oligarchy and will support oligarchy as well as disseminate the teaching of the Buddha under layers of Vajrayana leaves gathered from the forest.
Vajrayana, in its manifestation as Tibetanism, has become a religion heavily mixed with political impulses and motives and consequences. It has a thoroughgoing political character.
The idea of Nirvana in Vajrayana Buddhism is that the "whole of reality" manifests in one way, as populated by various forms of sentient beings dominated by the Buddhist hierarchy of enlightened beings as yidams, spirits and enlightened masters, including the Buddha himself.
Scientific reality can come into one's awareness but it is of secondary importance to the maintenance of awareness of reality as "Nirvana", as just described.
The idea that "it" can fit into a single cell, or the idea that one can observe, manipulate and repair the micro circuitry of the brain mentally, or the idea that one can observe a strand of one's own DNA dividing, are of the scientific sort, curiosities in the Vajrayana context, and no more.
The notion that a famous scientist, like Michio Kaku, for instance, could have deceased mathematicians present in his brain, assisting him to make mathematical connections, is odd in the Western scientific, materialistic world, but even in that world one occasionally hears rumors of "spirit helpers" or "scientific dream work" being accomplished.
This sort of thing has been a part of Vajrayana Buddhism for almost two thousand years and part of spirit religions for tens of thousands of years.
The reality of the situation is that the "Vajrayana context", the context of Tibetan Buddhism and of "Tibetanism" is merging with the context of advanced Western scientific materialism.
There will be consequences and they will be as serious as those which resulted from the first incursions of Vajrayana practice and thought into the quite circumscribed teachings of the Buddha.
edit on 10-10-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)
a reply to: ipsedixit
The reasoning for the limitation; is the very same reason some people do not bring up that they have seen a ghost or a UFo or other phenomena that may arise and pass...
As it has nothing to do with liberation other than a lesson that directly points to the moon of clinging...
The Buddha clung to the family he left behind in seeking the way out; for a long while. Finally he reached the jhannas or states his two teachers taught him... however disappointed seeing the extremes in both nihilism and materialism typically the two things that go hand in hand these days and well those days too?
He saw that contentment no matter the state or being heaven or hell? Was what was missing... all beings restless no matter the form known or unknown... malcontent due to impermanence and the twist? That impermanence is the only permanence... despite "time" being relative to whatever temporal or corporal form one may be or "become".
So of course it was best to regard all as a dream; and some peoples dreams enter yours... so of course what in essence Buddhism? The introduction to reality... if you were sitting meditating and it felt as if the "ground" beneath you was moving or giving way and it was not before? The eyes did not need to see if "mara" was trying to possess the eyes... so of course a gesture down to touch it.
It is not even my range or domain to ask which in that wheel turned first in the trembling...
The first jhanna can cause the earth to tremble when attained... Kundalini? Well, that's what world turners/conquerors have to content with in fear of a Buddha to come or yet to be.
Why? Just see/read what occurred when Rama fell asleep was jarred awake and the mess that was created... being caught by surprise not knowing he was asleep.
Jhanna 10 of them depending on the school of dhamma or kaya one has been exposed to or at least have been aware of in their constant lessons... even in those small moments between something slides through awareness... if oneself was not aware? Another if not hordes of those aware by the Rama account surely were.
How many were killed how many were made angry? Why do you think so much effort is made to point at the historical buddha and not the 10,000 plus from then and the next yuga... of course Kali was pissed; many of her children were killed. It's why the second Buddha on earth is just called a teacher instead of a buddha...
Of course a myriad of them are always available when ignorance of the four tries to reign over the freedom of the eight... one plane of beings cannot even hear the dhamma... so if it feels like one's mind is being read? By all means it is one of those beings in one of those realms... so look at the dhamma so that they may be able to speak it through the light shining as the moon is but a reflection or mirror through the darkness.
Take care.
The reasoning for the limitation; is the very same reason some people do not bring up that they have seen a ghost or a UFo or other phenomena that may arise and pass...
As it has nothing to do with liberation other than a lesson that directly points to the moon of clinging...
The Buddha clung to the family he left behind in seeking the way out; for a long while. Finally he reached the jhannas or states his two teachers taught him... however disappointed seeing the extremes in both nihilism and materialism typically the two things that go hand in hand these days and well those days too?
He saw that contentment no matter the state or being heaven or hell? Was what was missing... all beings restless no matter the form known or unknown... malcontent due to impermanence and the twist? That impermanence is the only permanence... despite "time" being relative to whatever temporal or corporal form one may be or "become".
So of course it was best to regard all as a dream; and some peoples dreams enter yours... so of course what in essence Buddhism? The introduction to reality... if you were sitting meditating and it felt as if the "ground" beneath you was moving or giving way and it was not before? The eyes did not need to see if "mara" was trying to possess the eyes... so of course a gesture down to touch it.
It is not even my range or domain to ask which in that wheel turned first in the trembling...
The first jhanna can cause the earth to tremble when attained... Kundalini? Well, that's what world turners/conquerors have to content with in fear of a Buddha to come or yet to be.
Why? Just see/read what occurred when Rama fell asleep was jarred awake and the mess that was created... being caught by surprise not knowing he was asleep.
Jhanna 10 of them depending on the school of dhamma or kaya one has been exposed to or at least have been aware of in their constant lessons... even in those small moments between something slides through awareness... if oneself was not aware? Another if not hordes of those aware by the Rama account surely were.
How many were killed how many were made angry? Why do you think so much effort is made to point at the historical buddha and not the 10,000 plus from then and the next yuga... of course Kali was pissed; many of her children were killed. It's why the second Buddha on earth is just called a teacher instead of a buddha...
Of course a myriad of them are always available when ignorance of the four tries to reign over the freedom of the eight... one plane of beings cannot even hear the dhamma... so if it feels like one's mind is being read? By all means it is one of those beings in one of those realms... so look at the dhamma so that they may be able to speak it through the light shining as the moon is but a reflection or mirror through the darkness.
Take care.
a reply to: ipsedixit
As I read your opening post I considered that it could be that the Tibetan Masters were supposed to be just as they were.... just as you outlined and delineated about in your opening post.. so that by the trials presented by all of those things you might learn to be dispassionate and to enter into Stillness...?
So that the Masters taught not by example but by bringing the student into subjection to these things that they might learn from them
As I read your opening post I considered that it could be that the Tibetan Masters were supposed to be just as they were.... just as you outlined and delineated about in your opening post.. so that by the trials presented by all of those things you might learn to be dispassionate and to enter into Stillness...?
So that the Masters taught not by example but by bringing the student into subjection to these things that they might learn from them
a reply to: HarryJoy
You certainly do learn from them, but what you learn is very disturbing. It's a little like learning that your Christian sect is riddled with pedophiles. Do you "turn the other cheek"?
This thread is intended to say some things about Tibetan Buddhism that are not often said and which are not even suspected by many young "western" practitioners of Vajrayana.
Many young people come into Tibetan Buddhism thinking of it as an escape from the shallow and hypocritical spiritualism they were born into. They don't know that Tibetan Buddhism can be just as shallow in some ways and intensely intolerant of deviations from orthodoxy. (Quite amusing when one considers that it, in itself, is a deviation from orthodoxy, as explained earlier in the thread.) Some of the Christian sects are that way. Young practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism don't think of themselves as practicing what can eventually come to seem like a form of totalitarian mind control.
Over the centuries Tibetans have come up with pious sounding explanations for things which are not Buddhist, not Vajrayana, but rather, Tibetanisms. These Tibetanisms are essentially political in character. In Tibet, as in other places, religion was used to control, manipulate and exploit people. This happens all over the world in virtually every politicized religion and Tibetan Buddhism is highly politicized.
When one looks at the history of Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism, in Tibet, one realizes that the teaching of Buddhism in Tibet has always operated on a quid pro quo basis. Tibetan Buddhism was bought with gold from Indian Vajrayanists. Marpa, the first Tibetan in the "stated" Kargyupa lineage journeyed to India and bought his teachings with gold.
These stories of how the Tibetans got the teachings are very often accompanied by references to gold and usually also by indications that the Indian master had no regard for gold and would abandon it, throw it away, etc. Maybe they did. I've never seen a Tibetan master turn down gold. Maybe they have.
In Tibetan Buddhism there are numerous groupings of practitioners, some are large like the major sects. These groups are all political. My guru told me that upon being asked how things were going a collection of people might reply that "All who are loyal to insert lineage head's name here, are well."
I don't want to go into too much detail about the esoteric side of the differences between the major lineages in Tibet, except to say that it is my suspicion that the formation of these lineages was motivated by political considerations, i.e., disputes over spiritual control, and the political and economic control that comes with it.
This can only go so far for esoteric reasons. After the point at which there is no more significant "spiritual territory" to partition, disputes are decided by spiritual power in the form of "Dharmapala protection/enforcement" and by straight materialistic military action.
The ongoing Dorje Shugden controversy represents a development (200 years ago) in the Dharmapala "arms race" and is still not resolved. The Dalai Lama is adamant in his gentle, understated way, that Dorje Shugden represents going a "spirit too far", and carries what is intended to be Buddhist practice over into the realm of martial (black) arts.
The antidote for "Tibetanism" in the past has been more Tibetanism, start your own lineage or propitiate an even more dangerous Dharmapala, to escape political domination.
Referencing your post, I would remind you of a quoted comment, from my own guru, that relates to the cultivation of "stillness". That sort of thing is distinctly Theravadin, mindfullness leading to stillness leading to insight. Zen Buddhism does a different take on essentially the same sort of practice. My Vajrayana guru said, of Zen and Theravadin Buddhism, "We have more power than them."
One of the unfortunate facts of life in Vajrayana is that there is no way to escape domination except by the practice of Vajrayana or of some other dangerous spirit religion, and I mean intensely. (I'm beaten up spiritually, regularly, because, frankly, I'm not interested at this point in my life in practicing intensely. I want to improve my guitar playing, my writing and my political commentary. I'm not ready for this stuff and it has only been circumstances that have led to my familiarity with so many of the dark sides of spirituality. I'm like Afghanistan. I can't get people to leave me alone, but I know a heck of a lot about their "special forces".)
The only thing these people understand is more power, that you can let up on when they back off. This is the sort of thing that Geshe Kelzang Gyatso has been led to in my estimation. He would never put it that way. He's very Tibetan.
You certainly do learn from them, but what you learn is very disturbing. It's a little like learning that your Christian sect is riddled with pedophiles. Do you "turn the other cheek"?
This thread is intended to say some things about Tibetan Buddhism that are not often said and which are not even suspected by many young "western" practitioners of Vajrayana.
Many young people come into Tibetan Buddhism thinking of it as an escape from the shallow and hypocritical spiritualism they were born into. They don't know that Tibetan Buddhism can be just as shallow in some ways and intensely intolerant of deviations from orthodoxy. (Quite amusing when one considers that it, in itself, is a deviation from orthodoxy, as explained earlier in the thread.) Some of the Christian sects are that way. Young practitioners of Tibetan Buddhism don't think of themselves as practicing what can eventually come to seem like a form of totalitarian mind control.
Over the centuries Tibetans have come up with pious sounding explanations for things which are not Buddhist, not Vajrayana, but rather, Tibetanisms. These Tibetanisms are essentially political in character. In Tibet, as in other places, religion was used to control, manipulate and exploit people. This happens all over the world in virtually every politicized religion and Tibetan Buddhism is highly politicized.
When one looks at the history of Buddhism, Vajrayana Buddhism, in Tibet, one realizes that the teaching of Buddhism in Tibet has always operated on a quid pro quo basis. Tibetan Buddhism was bought with gold from Indian Vajrayanists. Marpa, the first Tibetan in the "stated" Kargyupa lineage journeyed to India and bought his teachings with gold.
These stories of how the Tibetans got the teachings are very often accompanied by references to gold and usually also by indications that the Indian master had no regard for gold and would abandon it, throw it away, etc. Maybe they did. I've never seen a Tibetan master turn down gold. Maybe they have.
In Tibetan Buddhism there are numerous groupings of practitioners, some are large like the major sects. These groups are all political. My guru told me that upon being asked how things were going a collection of people might reply that "All who are loyal to insert lineage head's name here, are well."
I don't want to go into too much detail about the esoteric side of the differences between the major lineages in Tibet, except to say that it is my suspicion that the formation of these lineages was motivated by political considerations, i.e., disputes over spiritual control, and the political and economic control that comes with it.
This can only go so far for esoteric reasons. After the point at which there is no more significant "spiritual territory" to partition, disputes are decided by spiritual power in the form of "Dharmapala protection/enforcement" and by straight materialistic military action.
The ongoing Dorje Shugden controversy represents a development (200 years ago) in the Dharmapala "arms race" and is still not resolved. The Dalai Lama is adamant in his gentle, understated way, that Dorje Shugden represents going a "spirit too far", and carries what is intended to be Buddhist practice over into the realm of martial (black) arts.
The antidote for "Tibetanism" in the past has been more Tibetanism, start your own lineage or propitiate an even more dangerous Dharmapala, to escape political domination.
Referencing your post, I would remind you of a quoted comment, from my own guru, that relates to the cultivation of "stillness". That sort of thing is distinctly Theravadin, mindfullness leading to stillness leading to insight. Zen Buddhism does a different take on essentially the same sort of practice. My Vajrayana guru said, of Zen and Theravadin Buddhism, "We have more power than them."
One of the unfortunate facts of life in Vajrayana is that there is no way to escape domination except by the practice of Vajrayana or of some other dangerous spirit religion, and I mean intensely. (I'm beaten up spiritually, regularly, because, frankly, I'm not interested at this point in my life in practicing intensely. I want to improve my guitar playing, my writing and my political commentary. I'm not ready for this stuff and it has only been circumstances that have led to my familiarity with so many of the dark sides of spirituality. I'm like Afghanistan. I can't get people to leave me alone, but I know a heck of a lot about their "special forces".)
The only thing these people understand is more power, that you can let up on when they back off. This is the sort of thing that Geshe Kelzang Gyatso has been led to in my estimation. He would never put it that way. He's very Tibetan.
edit on 12-10-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason
given)
originally posted by: ColdWisdom
a reply to: ipsedixit
The dugpas, as I understand them, were a sect of renegade Tibetan monks who used their meditative abilitiess to wield power over others in such a way that is not too dissimilar from the way a black magician would abuse magick for his own personal gain or to inflict harm on others. Although, their motives for the abuse of the dark arts were largely unknown as they kept to themselves somewhere in the Indian Himalayas.
They’re known by contrast of the yellow hooded monks to be isolationists who wear red hoods/cloaks, and supposedly they could will a person to death by mere thought alone.
Blavatsky was allegedly taken in by them and initiated as such in order to fascilitate their traditions in the western world... or something.
This is all off the top of my head but I’m sure Wikipedia has a plethora of info about them, sparingly mixed in with references to Twin Peaks.
"power over others in such a way that is not too dissimilar from the way a black magician would"
Agree.
Kabbalah perhaps explains it more clearly. That the tree can be climbed using three different paths. The left path is taken by black magicians/sorcerers which try to pass the swords of the Kerubim, right path for white magicians/healers, and central path by those that don't seek egotistical rewards.
The left path is what the demon Mara promises to those that haven't conquered their ego. So many will be seduced by Mara to travel the faster left path. To attain powers to elevate their status among comrades. Eventually resulting in self destruction from the very energy's they seek.
So rather than seeing these things in Buddhism as an obstacle. We should see them as a warning. That the temptation of Mara (egoism) is incredibly powerful. So we need constantly introspect our motives to ensure they are pure.
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