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Peeing!!! in My Own Pool: The Problem of Tibetanism

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posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 10:03 AM
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Although I like so many things about Tibetan Buddhism, or Vajrayana Buddhism, as I prefer to call it, this bit of critical comment really needs to be said, and I really regret having to be the one to say it.

What I don't like about Tibetan Buddhism, but have to put up with (really):

Politics. Coercion. Feudal attitudes. Little kings. Vow "holders". Stooges. Using yidams, or the deceased for surveillance. Blessed tulkus. Strategic homosexuality. Thuggish, bullying spirituality. Guru, student and personal pride. The premium put on power. Lies and lies of omission in the spiritual context. Tantric (sexual) spirituality perpetrated on unwilling students. Necromancy. Getting psychically buggered. Black magical psychic assaults. Unrequested psychic surgery. Guru inflicted meditative "experimentation". The purposeful stunting and "bonsaiing" of student brains by means of superior mental power or coerced spirits for political purposes and to prevent students from developing some unique or unusual or personal capability, or to attempt to erase potentially awkward portions of their memory. Machiavellian realpolitik operating at the most absurd inconsequential levels. Tibetanism. Inflicted "social" meditative absorptions. Impertinent yogi clown shows. Psychic nagging. The practice of owning students and hence, being owned. The strategic manipulation of the distinction between relative and ultimate truth. Its nearness to Voodoo (Even the Dalai Lama doesn't like this aspect of it).

Last but not least, the incredible emotional and intellectual distance between the triumphalism of the Tibetan masters and the attitude of the Buddha himself.

The words of the Buddha:


www.buddhanet.net...



The Blessed One was once living at Kosambi in a wood of simsapa trees. He picked up a few leaves in his hand, and he asked the bhikkhus, ‘How do you conceive this, bhikkhus, which is more, the few leaves that I have picked up in my hand or those on the trees in the wood?

‘The leaves that the Blessed One has picked up in his hand are few, Lord; those in the wood are far more.’

‘So too, bhikkhus, the things that I have known by direct knowledge are more; the things that I have told you are only a few. Why have I not told them? Because they bring no benefit, no advancement in the Holy Life, and because they do not lead to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have not told them. And what have I told you? This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering. That is what I have told you. Why have I told it? Because it brings benefit, and advancement in the Holy Life, and because it leads to dispassion, to fading, to ceasing, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. So bhikkhus, let your task be this: This is suffering; this is the origin of suffering; this is the cessation of suffering; this is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.’

Samyutta Nikaya, LVI, 31





"He sank beneath your wisdom like a stone." Leonard Cohen, Suzanne.



Maybe it's just me.




posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 10:12 AM
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I think it may be an old Buddhist saying, but I could be mistaken, that "all religions start in the mountains a crystal clear stream and as they flow to the ocean they become muddy and dirty with all activities of life and death."

Or maybe I made up part of that. I am not sure.



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 10:22 AM
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Note to self don't go swimming over at the ops place.



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 10:22 AM
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a reply to: Fools

Well put. The Tibetans themselves, have been aware of the problem and have had a number of "reform" movements.



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 10:29 AM
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a reply to: neo96




edit on 4-10-2018 by Fallingdown because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 10:49 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

I was always more attracted to the Jesus Christ parts of Christianity. I pretty much ignore the church because it is always full of the same things you mention are wrong. The church is composed of people. The thoughts and instructions of saints and saviors can be singled out and allowed to better YOUR mind and YOUR soul.

Of course so few of us are capable of following the path of "the enlightened" as we'd like or even pretend - but it is certainly a good thing to allow their positive and loving grace help push all of the nastiness that corrupts our internal dialogue.

And it may even help us as individuals treat others better and make them stop and think about it for a moment.

Who knows? No one really. But I will always take Pascal's wager because it's the most sensible.



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 11:29 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

One of the most duplicitous women I knew used to make a big deal about going on 'spiritual retreats' to Samye Ling. I still hear people talking about the place as if it's something exotic. In reality it's just quasi-spiritual Butlins.

What I don't like about this brand of mind-bending claptrap is chubby blokes defrauding honest sculptors and taunting them with lies until the knives come out.

Two men have been sentenced to death in China for the murder of the co-founder of the Samye Ling Buddhist centre in Dumfriesshire.

Akong Rinpoche was stabbed to death, along with his nephew and driver, in the Chinese city of Chengdu in 2013.

. . .

Tudeng Gusang is believed to have worked at Samye Ling for five years making statues and believed he was owed money.

At the time of Akong's death, the monastery said the abbot had died defending funds that he was distributing in China.


The sculptor signed a statement saying he would work for free. After a year an agreement was made to pay him for further work. When he asked for payment they produced his statement and refused to pay. As you see the Buddhist Butlins then lied about how the chubby bloke died.

The sculptures are used to bring in the tourists.
edit on 4 10 2018 by Kester because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 11:40 AM
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I still practice Buddhism, although I am emotionally estranged from "Tibetanism". Don't get me wrong. I like the Tibetans, they are a very warm, humorous and engaging group of people. In Tibet, though, the integration of political power and spiritual enlightenment (and power) was complete.

I think a lot of long time and experienced, serious practitioners of "Tibetan Buddhism" in the West are very reluctant to spill the beans, as it were, on certain aspects of Tibetan Vajrayana practice. They look at the world around them and think, it's awful, our rulers are insane and I'm not going to give them any reason to be harsh on the Buddhists. Let's deal with the "issues" in house.

I used to think that way myself, but I don't think it is really effective, and beside that, just as they did in Tibet, Vajrayana Buddhist leadership outside of Tibet, around the world, is cosying up to power, the very people that one would want to shield them from.

Tibetan Buddhism is inextricably linked to power, spiritual and worldly, and it is a big problem.
edit on 4-10-2018 by ipsedixit because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 01:16 PM
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originally posted by: ipsedixit


1. Politics.

2. Coercion.

3. Feudal attitudes.

4. Little kings.

5. Vow "holders".

6. Stooges.

7. Using yidams, or the deceased for surveillance.

8. Blessed tulkus.

9. Strategic homosexuality.

10. Thuggish, bullying spirituality.

11. Guru, student and personal pride.

12. The premium put on power.

13. Lies and lies of omission in the spiritual context.

14. Tantric (sexual) spirituality perpetrated on unwilling students.

15. Necromancy.

16. Getting psychically buggered.

17. Black magical psychic assaults.

18. Unrequested psychic surgery.

19. Guru inflicted meditative "experimentation".

20. The purposeful stunting and "bonsaiing" of student brains by means of superior mental power or coerced spirits for political purposes and to prevent students from developing some unique or unusual or personal capability, or to attempt to erase potentially awkward portions of their memory.

21. Machiavellian realpolitik operating at the most absurd inconsequential levels.

22. Tibetanism.

23. Inflicted "social" meditative absorptions.

24. Impertinent yogi clown shows.

25. Psychic nagging.

26. The practice of owning students and hence, being owned.

27. The strategic manipulation of the distinction between relative and ultimate truth.

28. Its nearness to Voodoo (Even the Dalai Lama doesn't like this aspect of it).

29. Last but not least, the incredible emotional and intellectual distance between the triumphalism of the Tibetan masters and the attitude of the Buddha himself.





29 complaints.

try not reacting to anything.
like... try genuinely not giving a FUUUUUUUUQ

you are looking in the wrong "place",

Spirituality is nowhere. It's in you.

only your life.

its only your life.

tibettan buddhism didnt fill the hole with meaning.

fuk everything and
everyone

they are not you. nothing and no one can teach you.
you know everything you know because thats what you wanted to know.




edit on 4-10-2018 by 0racle because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 01:42 PM
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originally posted by: 0racle

originally posted by: ipsedixit



try not reacting to anything.
like... try genuinely not giving a FUUUUUUUUQ

you are looking in the wrong "place",

Spirituality is nowhere. It's in you.

only your life.

its only your life.

tibettan buddhism didnt fill the hole with meaning.

fuk everything and
everyone

they are not you. nothing and no one can teach you.
you know everything you know because thats what you wanted to know.



I would prefer not too know, and just be.

Basic, but well put. No need to join a tribe to be well inside. You may apply the tenets of any or all the theological cults and never find inner peace.

May the force be within you.


edit on 4-10-2018 by aliensanonymous because: (no reason given)



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 02:05 PM
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Look for "Breatharians" they do their own pee.

Here is a recipe I found for "UrineTherapy" (Yea, 'no kidding'...)

whale.to...



posted on Oct, 4 2018 @ 02:57 PM
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a reply to: 0racle

Oddly enough Dudjom Rinpoche beat you to it. "Ignore everything."

I'm fine. I needed to vent a little. Tibetan Buddhism is the way it is for substantive reasons. Those reasons worked themselves out over a long period in Tibet. It could be that Vajrayana Buddhism in the West doesn't have to be quite the same as it was in Tibet, or it could be that attempts to change it significantly will only lead to the reinvention of the wheel.

In general terms, I agree with you, though. Thanks.



posted on Oct, 5 2018 @ 12:30 AM
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Impermanence!

Lol that is the all... the nothing is the space that; that change occurs in... no biggie.

Make Tibetan Buddhism impermanent...surprise! It already is: EVERY time you are not thinking about it, you give it space to breathe.

All of that blah blah blah is too complex for one moment to experience properly; you're being a overwhelmed pack mule for a bunch of concepts.

Let go and just sit focus on one thing: basic Samadhi... that's all. That one thing is what blooms and blossoms into all the else.

The five precepts will eventually bloom into the 10 perfections and make sure kamma is good enough to not fall backwards on the path.

Don't put off enlightenment; go for it in this very life, take a firm resolve and do it.



posted on Oct, 5 2018 @ 03:24 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

I wouldn't put too much on Tibetan religion these days, its religion has become very corrupted since the Chinese took the place over in the 1930's. I suspect what is to day compared to what was before the Chinese took over is vastly different.

The Chinese destroyed the Potola when they took the place over which was the centre of their religion and very few people know this to this day.



posted on Oct, 5 2018 @ 10:27 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit



YOUR REAL SELF
In mysticism that alone is real which never changes.

While anything subject to change is unreal.

By such definition the body and mind are unreal, as both are subject to change.

If you relax with no body sensations, awareness (consciousness) of awareness alone remains.

If you empty your mind even for one second, awareness (consciousness) alone remains.

As the screen is seen when the movie stops

Awareness is realized when thoughts stop.

Only awareness can be aware of awareness (in silence).

Only consciousness can be conscious of consciousness (in silence).

Before this body, you were aware (as consciousness).

While in this body, you are aware (as consciousness).

After this body, you will remain aware (as consciousness).

Your real Self is always eternal consciousness.


by Pardeep



posted on Oct, 5 2018 @ 10:33 AM
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a reply to: JimNasium

Well Done, Mi Lad...
Well Done...

I Would Like To Add... That Not Much Can Be Understood Until Awareness Reveals It's Potency...



posted on Oct, 5 2018 @ 12:37 PM
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a reply to: Pinocchio



For You, the "other Me"...

www.theself.com



posted on Oct, 6 2018 @ 06:14 AM
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The Tripitaka or "Three Baskets" are referred to in this post. The story of the Simsapa Grove in the OP is taken from the Tripitaka.

en.wikipedia.org...ṭaka


The Tripiṭaka (Sanskrit /trɪˈpɪtəkə/) or Tipiṭaka (Pali /tɪˈpɪtəkə/), is the traditional term for the Buddhist scriptures.[1][2] The version canonical to Theravada Buddhism is generally referred to in English as the Pali Canon. Mahayana Buddhism also holds the Tripitaka to be authoritative but, unlike Theravadins, it also includes in its canon various derivative literature and commentaries that were composed much later.[1][3]


The organization of Buddhism changed significantly when it went to Tibet, not immediately, but in due course.

"How can he own a center when he doesn't even own himself?" - a Tibetan Princess from Kham in Eastern Tibet.

This is a question that was put to me by an eminent lady. I had told her that our center was "independent" and that it was "Rinpoche's center". The question was her response to my comment.

Things political were starting to loom large in the life of our center, large enough to come to my notice, but they had been in train for some time, under the radar. I had no response to her, just a conviction that our center was "independent", that it was "ours" and Rinpoche's.

I had been a practicing Buddhist for only two or three years at that time. Now it has been forty two years and I can see things fairly clearly and in perspective. Now I know what she meant.


"Buddhism is in the Tripitaka." - a Tibetan man.

This remark was made by a politically disaffected Tibetan, who had given me a lift during a transit strike. It is very telling.


What happened when Buddhism went to Tibet? Did "Buddhism" go to Tibet?

Vajrayana Buddhism went to Tibet, but that is not the Buddhism of the Tripitaka.

Most "Tibetan Buddhists" understand that Buddhism can be divided into three general categories. Hinayana (Theravada), Mahayana, and Vajrayana.

I won't go into the origin of these names.

Tibetan Buddhists understand Hinayana/Theravada practice to be directed toward the realization of the void or empty characteristic of the mind. When one realizes the void nature of the mind one is "enlightened".

What happens after enlightenment is a function of the karma of the enlightened being in question, but the final act of such a being in the Hinayana/Theravada tradition is the dissolving of all ties to Samsara (the world of comings and goings on all spiritual levels) and exit from the cycle of rebirth.

Tibetan Buddhists tend to regard Hinayana practice as having a flavor of self centeredness about it.

Mahayana practice in the Tibetan view is closer to the Tibetan Buddhist conception of their own Vajrayana practice. Vajrayana is generally regarded as part of the larger Mahayana group within Buddhism.

Mahayana practitioners are interested in "enlightenment" in the Hinayana sense but cultivate the "Bodhisattva attitude", which can be summed up as wishing to attain enlightenment, not just for the relief of one's own suffering but for the relief of the suffering of all sentient beings.

Thus the Buddhism of the Tripitaka, is modified accordingly. The benefit of others is elevated to a position of importance. The goal of liberating all sentient beings from "Samsara" requires that the practitioner, the Bodhisattva, forego complete liberation for himself and release from the cycle of rebirth.

In this practice the Bodhisattva continues to be reborn in order to fulfill the vow to liberate all sentient beings.

The effort of enlightened beings to continue to endure rebirth in order to fulfil the Bodhisattva Vow and benefit others by leading them to enlightenment is regarded as being integral to the "tulku system" and the various "lineages" of Tibetan Buddhism.

A "tulku" is a "recognized" reincarnated Bodhisattva, that is, one who attained enlightenment in a previous life and has returned to benefit sentient beings. Tulku recognition is at the heart of Vajrayana Buddhism as practiced in Tibet. There is no systematic "recognition" of reincarnated Bodhisattvas in Hinayana/Theravada Buddhism or in the numerous other branches of Mahayana Buddhism.

It is only in the tradition of "Tibetan Buddhism" (and that of Tibetan spiritual satellite countries like Bhutan, Mongolia and others) that tulkus are "recognized".

It should be stated that although the Tripitaka, as far as I am aware, does not, in itself, promote the Bodhisattva ideal of service to others, the Buddha's life and his sermons as recorded in the Sutras, are exemplary of the life of a Bodhisattva. He lived in service to others after having attained enlightenment.



posted on Oct, 6 2018 @ 06:19 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit

I hear ya. You're not alone. Just a simple thought or two: it comes down to beginner's mind, and studying well enough to become independent of the authorities. As far as community goes, I recommend "Don't just do something -- sit there!"

The late Chatral Rinpoche -- the only truly, impeccably sane voice after Dza Paltrul's that I know of -- recommended, as his parting advice, to keep to retreats, out of the fray of society, and to rely on teachers that stick to retreat and are not involved in many activities. Good luck finding one -- bear in mind, they might not be Tibetan. Could be an ordinary Occidental man or woman, preferably one with gray hair.

It really helps to find a truly competent, and impeccable, teacher in the first place. But if at first you don't succeed, try try again. Or not -- maybe just read books. It doesn't hurt to be an autodidact.

This is the problem with the good teachers -- they are either too busy, or too reclusive, to have time for the massive human wreckage floating in the wake of their incompetent, or "unethical" (which could be a euphemism for 'possessed') colleagues' bad behavior. The ones with slick websites and lots of social media activity are the ones I'd stay away from. The ones you never heard of -- why is that? Maybe because they are the really smart and competent ones.

In the end, I am an ideological Groucho Marxist when it comes to Tibetan Buddhism. I wouldn't wan't to belong to a club that would have me as a member. That is the kind of "Tibetan" [not!] Buddhist I follow. Tibetan Buddhism suffers from a dangerous embarrassment of riches, methodologically speaking. It's like visiting a sporting goods store with a platinum card. Actually using all the stuff you could buy there might be harmful to oneself or others. You could destroy your knees running in cleats, or kill someone with a gun.

Or you could walk in, take off all your clothes, and walk out naked like Kuntuzangpo. Scandalous perhaps, but utterly harmless. And you wouldn't have a big bill to pay, either
edit on 6-10-2018 by Namdru because: grouch --> groucho



posted on Oct, 6 2018 @ 06:27 AM
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a reply to: ipsedixit




Tibetan Buddhism is inextricably linked to power, spiritual and worldly, and it is a big problem.


That's why so many scoundrels play the "tantra" card. It's their ace in the hole, so to speak. It converts easily into POO -- Power Over Others. The slick so-called "masters" are mostly overgrown boys, and a few girls, that love to play with their own POO.



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