A World Without Israel??

Originally posted by rapier28

Originally posted by RebelSaint
I think its safe to say the good guys won this argument

I think it's hardly a cause for celebration.

The Israeli-Palestinian-Muslim conflict hardly contains any good guys. (all the "good guys" have being assassinated by they own people)

It's just as stupid to deny proper Palestinian complaints of Israeli settlements, and relocation as it is to deny Jews a proper homeland after so long.

The Arab-Israeli conflict is a very charged and complicated matter. Israel's existance is not the issue. I think the issue is that the Palestinian entity - much like the Jordanian entity is a fabrication. Granted Arabs did live on this land for a long time - but:
1- The entire area now considered Israel (including Gaza and West Bank) was mostly a barren wasteland. This can be validated by:
a) Pictures from that time period (late 1800s) -see the Al-Aqtza Moseque at the time was in poor shape.
b) Mark Twain's visit at that same time - He refered to the area as being a barren wasteland.
c) The British Census in the late 1800s/early 1900s.
2- Arab immigration was intensified during the early 1900s since jobs were available because of the British colonization and Jewish immigration.
3- Much of todays Palestinians were of Iraqi, Sudani, Yemeni decent. Yassir Arafat himself was Egyptian (born and raised - He spent a short time in Jerusalem with his Uncle).
4- The 'Palestinian problem' was a problem created by the Arab world who:
a) Attacked Israel when Israel was declared a free state and asked Arabs to leave the country so that Jews can be pushed into the sea. After whcih the Arabs would return to their homes.
b) After the defeat of the Arabs by the Jews the Arabs never absorbed the misplaced populations (of there own making). In effect, creating the Palestinian problem as a counter to the Legitimacy of Israel.
C) Enthusiastically supported terrorist actions against Israel and its Civilian population - In the name of the misplaced population which they created
5- After 58 years Israel's existance is a fact - Israel has contributed more to the world in terms of cultural, scientific and yes moral output than the entire Arab world put together for the last 100 years.

I think that the Palestinians need to 'loose' something for engaging in decades of terrorism, murder, rape and lies. This would mean that - Yes they deserve a homeland but one that is part of Jordan on the West Bank, Part of Egypt on the Gaza strip and a mutual transfer of populations and lands between Israel and 'Palestine'. So that Israel as well as 'Palestine' would be sustainable.
I fear that creating 'Palestine' on the entire West Bank will only create more problems that it solves. When Arab countries can split Israel in half in the narrowest strip of Israel (being 11 miles). This will be too tempting not to try.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

a) Attacked Israel when Israel was declared a free state and asked Arabs to leave the country so that Jews can be pushed into the sea. After whcih the Arabs would return to their homes.
b) After the defeat of the Arabs by the Jews the Arabs never absorbed the misplaced populations (of there own making). In effect, creating the Palestinian problem as a counter to the Legitimacy of Israel.

You must admit though that they had some cause for skepticism about they eventual return.

After 58 years Israel's existance is a fact - Israel has contributed more to the world in terms of cultural, scientific and yes moral output than the entire Arab world put together for the last 100 years.

I think it is fair to say that Jews are as a whole, are very intelligent and have contributed to mankind in many many ways.

I think that the Palestinians need to 'loose' something for engaging in decades of terrorism, murder, rape and lies. This would mean that - Yes they deserve a homeland but one that is part of Jordan on the West Bank, Part of Egypt on the Gaza strip and a mutual transfer of populations and lands between Israel and 'Palestine'. So that Israel as well as 'Palestine' would be sustainable.
I fear that creating 'Palestine' on the entire West Bank will only create more problems that it solves. When Arab countries can split Israel in half in the narrowest strip of Israel (being 11 miles). This will be too tempting not to try.

The only problem with that is that the Palestinians will never agree to such a proposal, the bombings will go on. This will be followed by military action and more bombings...

It will not solve the problem.

Originally posted by rapier28

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi

a) Attacked Israel when Israel was declared a free state and asked Arabs to leave the country so that Jews can be pushed into the sea. After whcih the Arabs would return to their homes.
b) After the defeat of the Arabs by the Jews the Arabs never absorbed the misplaced populations (of there own making). In effect, creating the Palestinian problem as a counter to the Legitimacy of Israel.

You must admit though that they had some cause for skepticism about they eventual return.

After 58 years Israel's existance is a fact - Israel has contributed more to the world in terms of cultural, scientific and yes moral output than the entire Arab world put together for the last 100 years.

I think it is fair to say that Jews are as a whole, are very intelligent and have contributed to mankind in many many ways.

I think that the Palestinians need to 'loose' something for engaging in decades of terrorism, murder, rape and lies. This would mean that - Yes they deserve a homeland but one that is part of Jordan on the West Bank, Part of Egypt on the Gaza strip and a mutual transfer of populations and lands between Israel and 'Palestine'. So that Israel as well as 'Palestine' would be sustainable.
I fear that creating 'Palestine' on the entire West Bank will only create more problems that it solves. When Arab countries can split Israel in half in the narrowest strip of Israel (being 11 miles). This will be too tempting not to try.

The only problem with that is that the Palestinians will never agree to such a proposal, the bombings will go on. This will be followed by military action and more bombings...

It will not solve the problem.

Firstly, I think that the Jews are no smarter than the average Joe. I think that culturally Jews tend to give higher priority to their children's education - that doesn't mean Jews are smarter.
Regarding the agreement of the Palestinians to the proposal I set forth. I think that no proposal short of the annihilation of Israel would suite the Palestinian leadership and possibly the average 'Ahmed'.

i personally believe you have to look more towards the christian religion, specifically the end of times prophecies, to see why the US decides to back Israel. And FYI for whoever said that Muslims and Christians were fighting way before there was an Israel, there was an Israel way before there were Muslims and Christians, but i get what you meant by that.

Originally posted by Ryanp5555
i personally believe you have to look more towards the christian religion, specifically the end of times prophecies, to see why the US decides to back Israel. And FYI for whoever said that Muslims and Christians were fighting way before there was an Israel, there was an Israel way before there were Muslims and Christians, but i get what you meant by that.

Can you please elaborate. I've heard a few versions of it (Evangelist) out of curiosity.

I tend to distance myseld from the concept of prophesies since they always seem to explain the past but never the future.

If the prophecies fortell a destruction due to conflict in the Middle East, then i'm very glad that i'am here in Australia.

Originally posted by rapier28
If the prophecies fortell a destruction due to conflict in the Middle East, then i'm very glad that i'am here in Australia.

Would very much like to visit Australia one of these days . . . But back to the end of days prophecy. Can you elaborate? Conflict in the middle east has been going on FOREVER!

Jews have a prophecy as well. It is most probably the same that Christians see it as the return of Christ and Jews see it as the coming of the Messiah. Where the world will clash in Jerusalem and then after much mayhem and destruction, the messiah comes (or Christ returns - depending on the flavor).
My question is - Back during the crusades I'll bet you the christian world thought that that was the day and age for the return of christ. The difference is that today it is the Christians as well as the Jews.

Again - I tend to see it as an interesting story and not more than that. This war will probably come and go just like it did for centuries.

I've heard about that war in Jeruselam end of world scenario thing...

I however have never understood why a war in the middle of the middle east would bring the rest of the world down (China, America, Africa, Australia, etc)

I guess, if 100 nukes happened to fall upon the middle east then the rest of the world would be pretty much gone as well.

Originally posted by edsinger
Israel

Area:slightly smaller than New Jersey
Population : 6,199,008
GDP - $120.9 billion (2003 est.)
Exports :$29.32 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Imports:$32.27 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Economic aid - recipient: $662 million from US (2003 est.)

Egypt

Area:slightly more than three times the size of New Mexico
Population:76,117,421 (July 2004 est.)
GDP: $295.2 billion (2003 est.)
Exports:$8.759 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Imports:$14.75 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Economic aid - recipient:ODA, $1.2 billion (2001)

Where did you get those figures Ed?
Those figures are wrong.

Check the document on foreign aid for 2001 from the following site:
www.state.gov...

Israel:
$840 million in ESF (Economic Support Fund)
$1.98 billion in FSF (Foreign Military Financing)
$2.82 billion total

Egypt:
$692.6 million in ESF (Economic Support Fund)
$1.294 billion in FSF (Foreign Military Financing)
$1.1 million in IMET (International Military Education & Training)
$1.987 billion total

[edit on 1-3-2005 by AceOfBase]

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
1- The entire area now considered Israel (including Gaza and West Bank) was mostly a barren wasteland. This can be validated by:
a) Pictures from that time period (late 1800s) -see the Al-Aqtza Moseque at the time was in poor shape.
b) Mark Twain's visit at that same time - He refered to the area as being a barren wasteland.
c) The British Census in the late 1800s/early 1900s.

I don't have a copy of the Census from the early 1900s but the Census from 1946 shows Arab agriculture far exceeded those of the Jewish inhabitants.

Value of agricultural production from main groups of crops in the season 1944-1945, distinguishing between Arab and Jewish cultivation:
Jewish crops- 4,710,926 (Palestinan pounds), Arab - 17,103,133 (Palestinan pounds) UNSCOP

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
2- Arab immigration was intensified during the early 1900s since jobs were available because of the British colonization and Jewish immigration.
3- Much of todays Palestinians were of Iraqi, Sudani, Yemeni decent. Yassir Arafat himself was Egyptian (born and raised - He spent a short time in Jerusalem with his Uncle).

Very little of of the Arab population increase was due to immigration while almost all of the Jewish poulation increase was due to immigration.

LoN/1945.VI.A.1 of 30 April 1945
1922 to 1938 increase in population.
Arabs:
Increase by immigration 18,281
Increase by births over deaths 292,798

Jewish:
Increase by immigration 259,371
Increase by births over deaths 68,102

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
4- The 'Palestinian problem' was a problem created by the Arab world who:
a) Attacked Israel when Israel was declared a free state and asked Arabs to leave the country so that Jews can be pushed into the sea. After whcih the Arabs would return to their homes.
b) After the defeat of the Arabs by the Jews the Arabs never absorbed the misplaced populations (of there own making). In effect, creating the Palestinian problem as a counter to the Legitimacy of Israel.
C) Enthusiastically supported terrorist actions against Israel and its Civilian population - In the name of the misplaced population which they created

The attacks started soon after the issuance of the Balfour declaration because they did not want their country to be given to an immigrant population.
The majority of the people who left Israel after the declaration of the State of Israel were forced out by the Jewish population. Only a few left because they were told to do so by Arab authorities. The expulsion of the Palestinians re-examined

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by edsinger
Israel

Area:slightly smaller than New Jersey
Population : 6,199,008
GDP - $120.9 billion (2003 est.)
Exports :$29.32 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Imports:$32.27 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Economic aid - recipient: $662 million from US (2003 est.)

Egypt

Area:slightly more than three times the size of New Mexico
Population:76,117,421 (July 2004 est.)
GDP: $295.2 billion (2003 est.)
Exports:$8.759 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Imports:$14.75 billion f.o.b. (2003 est.)
Economic aid - recipient:ODA, $1.2 billion (2001)

Where did you get those figures Ed?
Those figures are wrong.

Check the document on foreign aid for 2001 from the following site:
www.state.gov...

Israel:
$840 million in ESF (Economic Support Fund)
$1.98 billion in FSF (Foreign Military Financing)
$2.82 billion total

Egypt:
$692.6 million in ESF (Economic Support Fund)
$1.294 billion in FSF (Foreign Military Financing)
$1.1 million in IMET (International Military Education & Training)
$1.987 billion total

[edit on 1-3-2005 by AceOfBase]

CIA FACTBOOK..........................2004

You guys can have this arguement. I'm debating with Jews? No reason to even carry on with the conversation. Why would you admit you countless crimes against humanity? I'm finished.

Your reference to crop cultivation makes no arguement. Although the link you supplied provided good insight into the history of the region. One problem though - It is from the UN. The UN it blatently ANTI-ISRAEL and quite controlled by Arab interests. A good source for my claims can be read in:
www.cfi.org.uk...

As outlined the Many if not most of the 'Palestinians' are immigrants throughout the late 1800 and early to mid 1900s. Many illegal arab immigrants entered 'Palestine' throughout this period and where either incorporated to that census or not - whats clear is that a large portion of the illegal Jewish immigration was not incorporated. The census can therefore be invalidated.

Regarding the article about the forced displacement of the Palestinians by Jews - Yes it did happen but this was a small minority of the refugees. Walid Shoebat can vouch for that see his site:
www.shoebat.com...
He was a PLO activist turned to a staunch Israel supporter.
There are many sides to the story and atricities were performed by both sides. But the consistent lies are what is clouding the capacity to make peace is whats bothering me.
Lies such as the Jenin massacre, the exaggeration of the Dir Yassin massacre, the denial of the holocaust consistently blaming the Jews for everything that happens in the world MUST STOP.

Originally posted by Asia Minor
You guys can have this arguement. I'm debating with Jews? No reason to even carry on with the conversation. Why would you admit you countless crimes against humanity? I'm finished.

I am not Jewish...German American......

I'm debating with Jews? No reason to even carry on with the conversation.

I'm not Jewish either.....I'm Cherokee Indian...Irish....German and no telling what else. Got no problem with Jews though.

BTW - you were never debating anyone, you were just spewing a bunch of crap for all to read.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Your reference to crop cultivation makes no arguement. Although the link you supplied provided good insight into the history of the region. One problem though - It is from the UN. The UN it blatently ANTI-ISRAEL and quite controlled by Arab interests.

Read the dates of those documents I linked to.
One is from 1945 League of Nations and predates the United Nations.

The other document is from 1947 and is the document that called for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states so your comment about them being anti-Israel doesn't work.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Regarding the article about the forced displacement of the Palestinians by Jews - Yes it did happen but this was a small minority of the refugees.

I disagree that it was a small minority.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Your reference to crop cultivation makes no arguement. Although the link you supplied provided good insight into the history of the region. One problem though - It is from the UN. The UN it blatently ANTI-ISRAEL and quite controlled by Arab interests.

Read the dates of those documents I linked to.
One is from 1945 League of Nations and predates the United Nations.

The other document is from 1947 and is the document that called for the partition of Palestine into Jewish and Arab states so your comment about them being anti-Israel doesn't work.

I stand corrected league of nations it is. Just one thing - because of massive illegal immigration by both moslims and Jews (mind you Jewish immigration was curbed while Arab immigration was not) the cencus taken were invalid and inaccurate.

Originally posted by AceOfBase

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
Regarding the article about the forced displacement of the Palestinians by Jews - Yes it did happen but this was a small minority of the refugees.

I disagree that it was a small minority.

OK I bet we can both give references to supporting arguments on both sides.
e.g
www.shoebat.com...
Slama was quoted as saying "The Arabs asked us to leave Israel/Palestine in 1948 and promised our retun in 15 days so they could destroy the Jews"

some more truth by Arabs www.freemuslims.org...

I believe that the Arab leadership lied so much that they themselves don't know the truth.

Originally posted by JudahMaccabbi
some more truth by Arabs www.freemuslims.org...

I've been trying to find out more about "Sarah El Shazly" but it seems that is the only article that she's ever written and there is no information about this woman anywhere on Google.
I also disagree with her following statement:
Families lived in an area that includes the West Bank, Gaza, and Amman, and in other Arab cities in areas where borders were created later

She left out many areas that had large Arab populations.

Just look at the maps of Land ownership of Palestine from 1945:
Land ownership by sub-district (1945)

Here's another one showing population distribution:
Palestine_population 1946


BTW, if you want a fairly good document on agriculture in Israel you can look at the document below from 1930:

Palestine report on immigration, land settlement and development
Results of Jewish Settlement.

The results of Jewish colonisation of the Vale of Esdraelon are varied. In some villages there are clear signs of success; in others, the opposite is the case. The village of Afuleh, which the American Zionist Commonwealth boomed as the Chicago of Palestine, is a sea of thistles through which one travels for long distances. A plague of field mice, which has done extensive damage to both Jewish and Arab cultivation in the Vale during the present year was officially stated to be due to the fact that 30,000 dunams of the land held by the Jews are derelict and covered with weeds. It is also a fact that in a number of villages the tithes paid by the Jews are considerably below those paid by the Arabs who formerly cultivated those villages.

Its Past.

It is a mistake to assume that the Vale of Esdraelon was a wilderness before the arrival of the Jewish settlers and that it is now a paradise. A very large amount of money has been spent by the various Jewish agencies, and great improvements have been made. The work that has been done, especially in the direction of drainage and the introduction of new and improved methods of agriculture is highly valuable. There can be little doubt that in time, the application of capital, science, and labour will result in general success. It is, however, unjust to the povertystricken fellah' who has been removed from these lands that the suggestion should continually be made that he was a useless cumberer of the ground and produced nothing from it. It should be quite obvious that this is not the fact.

In ancient times Esdraelon was the granary, and by the Arabs is still regarded as the most fertile tract of Palestine. The soreness felt owing to the sale of large areas by the absentee Sursock family to the Jews and the displacement of the Arab tenants is still acute. It was evident on every occasion of discussion with the Arabs, both effendi and fellahin.

[edit on 1-3-2005 by AceOfBase]

I've been trying to find out more about "Sarah El Shazly" but it seems that is the only article that she's ever written and there is no information about this woman anywhere on Google. I think it was written by an Israeli pretending to be an Arab.

It's highely likely. Look at your news. Can you believe the Jew ran media?
My arguement is over but I'm just stating that the people running your country.......it''s up to you.




[edit on 1-3-2005 by Asia Minor]


[edit on 1-3-2005 by Asia Minor]

[edit on 1-3-2005 by Asia Minor]

A World Without Israel

now that is just ignorant ,...sure blame all the nastiness in the evil on the Jewish people...good grief ...no wonder Neo-Nazis are growing more and more...someone must have been reading to much "serpent Seed" garbage... how about a world without USA ...or people that post and write racist intolerant garbage like that???