Rendlesham Forest 1980 Pt II - Will There Be An Answer?

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

The Geneva convention would not apply to housing of nuclear weapons. The Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty of 1968 would not apply as the US and UK are both nuclear powers. However the story could have surfaced because the US was storing more warheads on the bases than the UK was led to believe.

And yes, Bustinza's story is very strange.

But some of the things Bustinza claims really do not appear to fit in with other accounts.

He gave an interview to Larry Fawcett [LF] in 1987. Here's a few snippets.

LF – And you started to go into the woods like in a line.

AB – Correct.

LF – And there was John Burroughs there?

AB – John Burroughs, correct.

LF – All right. Sergeant Medina?

AB – Right.

LF – A Captain Verrano?

AB – Captain Verrano, yeah, station commander.

LF – Ball, Sergeant Ball?

AB – Yeah, Master Sergeant Ball, my flight chief.

LF – Mark Thompson?

AB – Oh, yeah, that crazy guy, yeah.

LF – Sergeant Combs?

AB – Sergeant Combs, law enforcement?

LF – Yeah. Airman Palmer?

AB – Palmer. Law enforcement, too.

LF – And you started to go into the woods like in a line…. Were there any bobbies there or British police or anything?

AB – Not at the beginning.

LF – OK. As you were going through now, Larry [Warren] said all of a sudden, they could see lights coming through the woods and he could also hear helicopters over above.

AB – Yes, a squadron, pararescue squadron was activated.

LF – Pararescue. Where were they from? Woodbridge?

AB – Woodbridge they weren’t very far away as a matter of fact.

LF – Do you know how many were up at the time?

AB – I recall Major Zickler said, scramble two, I believe he said.

Seems like Bustinza recalled a rather larger contingent of personnel than most others recall out in the woods.

Then we have the choppers. No helicopters can be heard on the Halt tape. Burroughs never mentions helicopters. The military claims are that the 67th ARRS based at Woodbridge were not operational over Christmas breaks. Bustinza's even claiming Zickler was there to order the scrambling of the choppers.

LF – OK. As you got into the field, Larry said the field was ringed by military people and British personnel.
...
AB – Yes.
...
AB – At least thirty.
LF – Now, Larry said that he saw movie-picture cameras.
...
AB – Well, yeah they were, but I didn’t know they were movie pictures or not. I did see a couple flashes.

As far as we know from all other accounts there were no Brits out there. No one with a camera other than Monroe Nevels.

LF – Larry [Warren] said that something happened to their machine. Do you remember that?....And our government helped them repair that machine. They flew a piece in from Germany, I believe.

AB – ....I remember Colonel Halt said–I remember Larry. I don’t know why they picked Larry, but I remember Larry was going up there, and I was so scared I don’t know what to think. I was in a foreign country, you know.

LF – Yeah. Larry said you made a comment, and you said something like, “Oh, no, not again!” Yes. And Larry said, “What do you mean?” And you said, “I went through this.” See Larry had it mixed up though. He said, “I went through this in Alaska once before.”

AB – Yeah, OK. It wasn’t Alaska...

LF – Yeah.

AB – It was in California where it actually happened...Mather Air Force Base. Yeah. [we'll come back to that]
.......
AB – To tell the truth, I remember seeing the craft. I remember Colonel Halt talking, and I remember looking to who he was talking to and I couldn’t see nobody....who he was talking to.... I thought everybody there was going crazy.... And I do remember him saying he would contact the electronics division, which would be CRF, I think it was, the call letters for the group. And they would possibly have to get the part from another world....

Now Adrian seems to be still painting Larry into the story here. Although he's changed that and that he went forward with John (in his 2015 radio appearance) and stumbled as John was engulfed with light. But what's this about Halt talking to no one in particular about parts from another world?

Oh and finally this wasn't Bustinza's first strange encounter on a USAF base. Here's what he says about his experience at Mather Air Force Base.

AB – There, we didn’t really see much we were all out on the perimeter. The alert pad and bright lights lit up the whole area, and there was something in the middle of the pad but hovering about, oh, forty, fifty feet above in the air. Real shiny lights. You couldn’t even look up at it really–bright, bright lights all around. And then it just disappeared. We called it in, they just started laughing at us.

LF – What was your unit at the time?

AB – 320 SPS.

LF – What year was that, do you remember?

AB – ’77,’78, or ’79.

LF – You don’t remember exactly?

AB – I don’t remember exactly. I put that one way behind me. It was one of the first times and the last one for me until I went to Bentwaters.

Strange memory problems again. He was at Bentwaters in 1980. How come he couldn't recall the year strange things happened 1,2, or 3 years before?

Now I think he felt some obligation to Warren for making the story public (perhaps he was even threatened by him?). So he'd written Larry into his own story. But in doing so it has become detached from what really happened. And there perhaps lies the reason that he might have been lying. What do you think?

originally posted by: mirageman

But some of the things Bustinza claims really do not appear to fit in with other accounts.

Remember that other forum that attempted to piece together all accounts from all sources into an all-purpose timeline? It was going smoothly until Bustinza's various accounts were mixed in and tripped over each other until I had no clue what the hell he was seeing and from where. And he was involved in three important sightings at different stages on 27/28th.

It's important to remember that Bustinza was with the party that encountered the object surrounded by mist on 27th Dec before alerting Halt - a section of the night most palpably conveyed during the CNN Special (without Bustinza). I prefer Boeche's early 1984 interview (where three airmen remain anonymous: A, B & C) since it is the least 'contaminated' by the Warren story and ego. The only way to make sense of Fawcett's incompetent interview (which LF leads far too much with Warren's version for my taste) is to conclude that Bustinza accidentally mixed all three stages of the night - hence the bigger cast that adds Verrano, Thompson, Combs, Palmer and Medina.

But they're not added to Halt's party; they were there at later or earlier stages. I think we can assume Bustinza knows Halt's group encompassed himself, Ball, Nevels and Englund - with an early order to fetch light-alls (and meeting further cast members) before re-joining Halt. Fawcett asks if Burroughs was there - well, yes, of course he was, but the questioning is unfocused as to that night's timeline, so it's a messy interview from the kick-off with an airman who is already nervous.

LF – OK. As you were going through now, Larry [Warren] said all of a sudden, they could see lights coming through the woods and he could also hear helicopters over above.

See what I mean? Leave Him Alone, Fawcett! Stuff Larry, allow Bustinza to breathe and express HIMSELF in his own words, like with Boeche.

AB – Yes, a squadron, pararescue squadron was activated.

Again, WHEN is he referring to? Perhaps he means the next day when multiple personnel allegedly entered the forest with helicopters - confirmed by Burroughs who stated that a special aircraft arrived at the base to collect 'something'. Maybe nothing to do with the previous nights' sightings.

The LF interview is an insufferable mess, but I don't blame the interviewee.

LF – OK. As you got into the field, Larry said the field was ringed by military people and British personnel.
... AB – At least thirty.

Larry Larry bloody Larry. Yes, there were thirty people out there, but not with Halt's group - only at the outset (as confirmed by Halt) and maybe at 4am, too, upon his return to base.

AB – To tell the truth, I remember seeing the craft. I remember Colonel Halt talking, and I remember looking to who he was talking to and I couldn’t see nobody....who he was talking to.... I thought everybody there was going crazy.... And I do remember him saying he would contact the electronics division, which would be CRF, I think it was, the call letters for the group. And they would possibly have to get the part from another world.

The weirdest part of the interview by far. The explanation, however, amidst the weird atmosphere of the incident itself, surely points to Halt speaking into his hand-held tape recorder. According to Halt, the young AB was by his side and trembling, already confused enough. Was Halt simply calling the Radar station at 3.25 rather than the "Electronics division", maybe jokingly mentioning "something from another world" in relation to the UFO he just called in, and AB understandably got his wires crossed? I'd place bets on that.

Oh and finally this wasn't Bustinza's first strange encounter on a USAF base... Strange memory problems again. He was at Bentwaters in 1980. How come he couldn't recall the year strange things happened 1,2, or 3 years before?

Seems irrelevant to me, especially trying to time-stamp an event some ten years back from 1987, and certainly not as inherently STRANGE and life-changing an incident as Rendlesham according to his own recollection of the latter.

Now I think he felt some obligation to Warren for making the story public.

Well, that could be a factor. Just a shame that Warren was still breathing down his neck as late as 2015. We're grateful to Warren for breaking the story, but that's as far as the gratitude extends.

It's also ironic that "Art Wallace" was used as Warren's nom de plume - a sci-fi hack whose best known teleplay, "Assignment: Earth" (March 1968, Star Trek, Season 2 finale), involved a human time-traveller called Seven who travels from the far future to the 20th century to interfere with a nuclear weapons facility.

Did Warren and Penniston exchange notes about Wallace before Jim's miraculous hypnotic revelation about time-travellers in 1994?

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

God almighty my head hurts!

originally posted by: Baablacksheep
a reply to: ConfusedBrit

God almighty my head hurts!

Yes, welcome to the Rendlesham Forest Incident.

Been 'ere long?

Very good interview with Dr. David Clarke from 31st Jan 2019.

Link

He gives his opinions on various matters pertaining to the Condign report, MoD document releases, a certain former Head of the UK UFO Project and also the recent story he put out about an SAS prank being the cause of the Rendlesham Incident. Which of course he is certain was just mischief making. Dr. Clarke remains a sceptic in the true sense of the word. But was also refreshingly open minded enough to accept that some things about the RFI and the UFO subject in general remain entirely unknown.

a reply to: mirageman

The last bit I agree with.

originally posted by: mirageman
Very good interview with Dr. David Clarke from 31st Jan 2019.

Link

One of the best interviews I have heard in quite a while, and good to hear Burroughs and potential arch-nemesis Clarke (albeit not in the same league as Ridpath in terms of inflexibility) chumming up and vowing to assist each other in future research.

Clarke is delightful to listen to, his open-minded scepticism disarmingly honest and direct, yet open to fresh ideas. His explanation of the balls of light seen at Lakenheath/Bentwaters in 1956 (provided second-hand, concerning the combination of car headlights and atmospheric conditions) was news to me. Could it apply to at least some of the strange lights seen over three days in 1980? Since the 1956 'apparitions' were dependent on an infrequent combination of weather conditions, it may explain why Burroughs,Penniston, Halt and Co had not seen their particular light show before or since 25th - 28th Dec 1980 - one of the inherent mysteries of the case for me.

The show underlined again how Rendlesham is a historically strange area, the inexplicable interferences with the nearby Cobra Mist radar installation (leading to its expensive closure in the mid-70s) just one example.

I noticed Burroughs took the opportunity to stick the boot into Penniston's time-travel adventures at the end of the show - do those two not talk to each other anymore?

Clarke and Burroughs' tough but deserved character assassination of that ludicrously dishonest muppet Nick Pope was a moment worthy of applause.

And I noticed LMH remained quiet when Clarke mentioned the fake MoD letter from the 80s about alien contact - a forgery she was willing to wave around as Fact when she had Dastardly Dick Doty on as a guest last year. In fact, the best thing about this show was that LMH did keep her incessant trap shut for most of the running time, allowing the adults to talk.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

Clarke seemed to become angry at something with his MOD experience around a year ago. Since then I’ve noticed that he will signpost things between the lines that if you read carefully enough you can track down.

His repeated acknowledgement of both explicable and inexplicable elements in the RFI was refreshing. Particularly his comments around the forest.

a reply to: mirageman

I enjoyed listening to the show and dr Clarke is always good value, definitely the best one for a while.
The lights being reported outside Woodbridge back in 46 is very interesting.

a reply to: ConfusedBrit

His explanation of the balls of light seen at Lakenheath/Bentwaters in 1956 (provided second-hand, concerning the combination of car headlights and atmospheric conditions) was news to me. Could it apply to at least some of the strange lights seen over three days in 1980? Since the 1956 'apparitions' were dependent on an infrequent combination of weather conditions,

Very unlikely the 1956 sightings were caused by vehicle lights in misty/foggy conditions. In 1980 there was no fog. As we know the skies over Southern England were clear because a satellite rocket burnout and shooting stars were seen that night.


Clip from Jan 1981 of New Scientist



Data provided by tutiempo.net

And I noticed LMH remained quiet when Clarke mentioned the fake MoD letter from the 80s about alien contact - a forgery she was willing to wave around as Fact when she had Dastardly Dick Doty on as a guest last year. In fact, the best thing about this show was that LMH did keep her incessant trap shut for most of the running time,

I don't think she expected kick back from Clarke. Very few people ever take her on toe to toe. However there are a lot of very stupid gullible people who follow her and believe her every stilted, staccato word. Just take a look at the comments on her Youtube page .

Clarke very calmly destroyed Linda's assertion that because Charles Halt said Rendlesham was ET in nature that it was proof aliens were involved. His bringing up the subject of the faked MoD memo [discussed here ]was very subtle.

Linda has used this in her book "Pimping Things from Other Realities" or whatever, and many other times as 'proof' of aliens. She has absolutely no ability to tell fact from fiction and is probably senile now. But this left her so flummoxed that she claimed she had another interview and failed to come out for the second half. Ending with a very strange speech before she departed. Here's what she said after John and David had been discussing the Condign report.

Please imagine her annoying staccato vocal tones as you read this out.

..

And err they on that point right now [pause] err what we're going to do is we're going to take a break and I'm going to come back to do a science report and then in your wonderful hands with John because I have to [adopts tone of mock laughter] have to do another interview today and I have, I want. you to know how much [pause] I have enjoyed [pause] I'd love analytical, critical minds. And you are doing a big service on this whole planet. I think that there is an alien intelligence.

But you're raising the question that all of us need to ask is how do we prove and use chain of custody to get hard evidence of forces [pause] which governments [pause] want [pause] to keep out of their hands.

And that in a funny strange way all of us no matter what our criticalities [this is not a word is it?] we are all up against [pause] an effort [pause] policy of denial [pause]. A policy of facts by all of the political institutions to keep us at an arm's length [pause] from what they know [pause] or don't know [pause]. And I think that you and John and I are bound in that you want to penetrate that [pause] and so on that note I want to thank you[pause]. I'm going to do an interesting science report next and then you and John can continue this discussion.

I hope she went for a lie down and decided to retire after that. I really don't know how she makes an income. She keeps makings sure people refer back to her local Emmy award in 1980 for a Strange Harvest. After that what has she really done? Doty destroyed her career. She has to be in the pocket of the MIC and paid to spread disinformation?

I really don't understand Burroughs submissive role on that radio show. If he did some solid research on other UFO cases instead of just focusing on Rendlesham he could kick her dumb proclamations into touch. Unless of course he has chosen to become part of the UFOtainment complex himself. Where the objective is to forever roll on the conspiracy and never solve the mystery. I guess he knows Linda has a very large audience of very low cognitive abilities and high gullibility.

So maybe he has decided to take the path of least resistance and as the Beach Boys once sang

"Lie Lady Linda with me", when of course the truth would be nice for once.



This is ufology's eternal problem. If we solved Rendlesham tomorrow a lot of people's current careers would die with it. I don't think we need to reel off the list of names. The same goes for a lot of other cases that can never ever be solved...

a reply to: mirageman

LMH needs putting out to pasture and do what old ladies do. Knit and drink tea.

I really don't understand Burroughs submissive role on that radio show. 

Perhaps time to dig a little deeper on this ever so cosy relationship?

If we solved Rendlesham tomorrow a lot of people's current careers would die with it

Sure thing MM sure thing😉.

It was one of the best interviews I have heard for a while.

Nick Pope..hmmm, we have discussed some of the MOD released documents before that pull into question the self aggrandising of his role whilst working for the MOD and it was good to hear Dr David Clarke take this head on, but in the clear, direct no nonsense approach that most people within ufology seem to lack.

Most Importantly it was backed up with facts and official documents and not just a character assassination of Pope, the facts speak for themselves. Pope blocking some of the unreleased files, well....we can only draw conclusions from that but it doesnt paint him in a good light regardless.

Also of interest was Burroughs comments regarding he has documents pertaining to the weaponisation of something from Rendlesham that was/is developed by BAE systems. He stated that he has sat on the document(s) for a number of years. What is interesting here, is that he stated previously that it was an individual that advised him that something from Rendlesham had been weaponized. Was it this that made him foia for the documents or did he have the documents all along whilst making these statements?

Well, you gotta get your facts straight and you must tell the people.... So I would say if that is the case then release those documents.

a reply to: pigsy2400

He stated that he has sat on the document(s) for a number of years.

Maybe its all waiting to go into a book. John did announce he was writing one sometime ago...

a reply to: mirageman

I always want to switch off when linda Android now speaks, the most gullible or stupid ufo researcher ever.

a reply to: Baablacksheep

A code within a code book? Is this what you referring to Baa?

a reply to: pigsy2400

Hi Pigs. Yes. But nothing has happened yet.

a reply to: wobbs62

A very smart buisness women. She knows her a audience well. The needy.
I find it difficult to pay attention. ' Closed quote".

a reply to: Baablacksheep

Silly me forgot to 'close quote' 😀

a reply to: Baablacksheep

I'm thinking of writing a book about all her lies and bollocks stories down the years.

With a working title of :

Open quote

"The Liar, the Witch and her Wardrobe"

Close quote.

I just need to find a good robot to do the audiobook version.

a reply to: mirageman

John wont like reading all that. They are just about joined at the hip the two of them.

It would make a great read though .