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NEWS: Reclaiming America for Christ

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posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 09:33 AM
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no, but there were many attrocities that were sanctioned by religious church/states......

so, I would assume that either the religions concerned just weren't really in line with what God really desired, and the states were only being run by what a segment of the population believed was God's desires.....

and they were just wrong....

if anything, I think that our founding fathers tried real hard not to put many of their own interpretations into our government, and well, didn't even specify a name or identity to the "Creator", just the acknowledgement of him, and the fact that this creator, regardless of what their own religous philosophies might have said at the time, gave everyone the same rights to life, liberty, and the persuit of happiness...regardless of their personal beliefs....
this way, well, the errors are more easily seen as errors, questioned, and changed.




posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 10:08 AM
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Most discussion here is looking at whether or not fundamentalist Christians have a right to "reclaim America for Christ." ...but many American Christians are not fundamentalists and of course, many Americans are not Christian.

Let's look at Bush's game - he's pushing fundamentalism, and playing fundamentalists against one another.

...He's got the fundamentalist Christians on a leash at home - plus, he's in solid with Islamic fundamentalists through people like the bin Ladens and Chalabi - AND he's got Jewish fundamentalists on a string too.


Doesn't this look fishy to anyone else here?



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[edit on 24-2-2005 by soficrow]



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 10:20 AM
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you mean....like maybe the battle line is being drawn kind of wrong???


ya.....

who, more than likely will gain control of Iraq, now that Saddam is gone?

although, hitting the taliban in afghanistan was a pretty bad blow for the fundies, unless of course, you consider that the christian fundies here at home were having a hard time pushing some of their agenda with the fundie counterparts in afghanistan doing what they were doing....then well, maybe it wasn't such a bad blow to them.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 10:24 AM
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.
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It's just a good old-fashioned divide and conquer strategy. ...While everyone's distracted with their squabbling, the big boys sneak in and grab the loot.



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posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 11:49 AM
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Hmm...this thread has run a little rampant..

Anywho, I have long since removed myself from this debate, seeing as it has become a stalemate on both sides - however:

To the side claiming that the U.S. is NOT a religious based country - the fact still stands:

Why inaugurate (sp?) the Presidents with a BIBLE? A CHRISTIAN thing - why not the Torah? Or the Qoran? Or perhaps NOTHING if we are so such a secular country?

-wD



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 11:52 AM
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Maybe I am wrong, but don't they give the president a choice as to what they use, and they can chose nothing?



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 12:41 PM
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Originally posted by WeBDeviL
Hmm...this thread has run a little rampant..

Anywho, I have long since removed myself from this debate, seeing as it has become a stalemate on both sides - however:


No, you're side has been proven wrong repeatedly thank you. You aren't listening.


the side claiming that the U.S. is NOT a religious based country - the fact still stands:

Why inaugurate (sp?) the Presidents with a BIBLE? A CHRISTIAN thing - why not the Torah? Or the Qoran? Or perhaps NOTHING if we are so such a secular country?

-wD


So what does that mean? "I have an inch so I'm owed a mile?"

Any President could refuse that I'm sure just like you can in court. Some religions forbid swearing on the Bible actually.

I just don't see your point. It's like when O'Reilly gets all huffy saying Christmas is a federal holiday so obviously it follows we should have prayer in schools, fund faith based works in the public sector, ban gay marriage and kiss his salty bum...

Why again? Because you have one thing that sorta kinda makes something seem at least reverant to Christianity so the whole damn country should convert to a theocracy despite countless writings of the founding fathers to the contrary and no small minority of people saying hell no now?

It's easy enough to see there was a Christian influence on early Americans (just like now), and just like there was a Roman one, a Saxon one, a Masonic one and a Bavarian Illuminati influence... but you can't just ignore all evidence to the contrary that we shouldn't bend over now to rule by religious tryanny.

I mean surely you've read all the quotes in this thread by framers. This is the very debate they were having then with pushy preachers. Nothing has changed.

If it's so "obvious" our government should bown down to Christianity why isn't it expressly written somewhere? In fact, it's expressly written countless times in countless places that's NEVER what they intended and what NOT to do.

Omissions to Christianity were on purpose.


"[When] the [Virginia] bill for establishing religious freedom... was finally passed,... a singular proposition proved that its protection of opinion was meant to be universal. Where the preamble declares that coercion is a departure from the plan of the holy author of our religion, an amendment was proposed, by inserting the word "Jesus Christ," so that it should read "a departure from the plan of Jesus Christ, the holy author of our religion." The insertion was rejected by a great majority, in proof that they meant to comprehend within the mantle of its protection the Jew and the Gentile, the Christian and Mahometan, the Hindoo and infidel of every denomination." --Thomas Jefferson: Autobiography, 1821. ME 1:67


You know? When did we get so anti-american as to not be concerned with the "infidels." The 50's I suppose. This was serious stuff to the founding fathers. America is a radical, revolutionary, liberal concept. A democracy based on freedom. Not a Christian democracy based on God knows what.

Why I ask you did the founding fathers write so extensively to dispell the Christian nation notion and keep the "tyrannical prists" at bay? I ask you? You mention using Bible's in ceremonies. Great! It's tradition. But meaningless to the intent of America or it's governing. The myth our laws come from Christianity is BS accoring to Jefferson.


"For we know that the common law is that system of law which was introduced by the Saxons on their settlement in England, and altered from time to time by proper legislative authority from that time to the date of Magna Charta, which terminates the period of the common law. . . This settlement took place about the middle of the fifth century. But Christianity was not introduced till the seventh century; the conversion of the first christian king of the Heptarchy having taken place about the year 598, and that of the last about 686. Here then, was a space of two hundred years, during which the common law was in existence, and Christianity no part of it.

". . . if any one chooses to build a doctrine on any law of that period, supposed to have been lost, it is incumbent on him to prove it to have existed, and what were its contents. These were so far alterations of the common law, and became themselves a part of it. But none of these adopt Christianity as a part of the common law. If, therefore, from the settlement of the Saxons to the introduction of Christianity among them, that system of religion could not be a part of the common law, because they were not yet Christians, and if, having their laws from that period to the close of the common law, we are all able to find among them no such act of adoption, we may safely affirm (though contradicted by all the judges and writers on earth) that Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law."


Again, why did he write this? Was he crazy? Were they all? Washington, Adams.. the Congress that ratifed the Treaty of Triploi...


As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion...


Did they not mean it? Did they mean except for Jerry Falwell cause he's a good guy and should stick his nose in government whenever he likes. Are we suddenly smarter or more enlightened than they were? We can handle Theocracy now? It's come full circle, now it's time to tell the founding father's and their liberal ideals that if they don't like conservative Christian America they can go to hell?

If your point is the American people have religion in our roots, nobody is contesting that. But the government is secular, was established as such, has been ratified as such and until Bush reversed seperation precedent with public funded faith based initiatives has always been secular (diversions into school prayer, Prohibitionists and Pledge rewrites notwithstanding.)

"America" is no more Christian than a table or chair.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 12:42 PM
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The key is to understand the meaning of the word Deist.

Deist
: a movement or system of thought advocating natural religion, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe. Merriam Webster

Nowhere does the word Christian appear in the definition. Our Forefathers were, for the most part, Deists not Christians.

Recognizing divinity is not unique to Christianity, I submit that it is absolutely prerequisite to any and all religions. Saying "Under God" does not in any way shape or form define that god as a Christian god.

The United States has a secular government.

Secular:
Function: adjective

1 : of or relating to the worldly or temporal b : not overtly or specifically religious c : not ecclesiastical or clerical

2 : not bound by monastic vows or rules; specifically : of, relating to, or forming clergy not belonging to a religious order or congregation

3 : occurring once in an age or a century b : existing or continuing through ages or centuries c : of or relating to a long term of indefinite duration


Your drivers liscence is a secular document. A drivers liscence does not require you to be of any faith. Your marriage liscence should be a secular document as well (as far the law is concerned) as or it is a violation of the 1st Amendment:

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;............." -1st Amendment US Constitution.

Really how much plainer could it have been said? In the United States we allow for many different beliefs or disbeliefs with no one belief system taking primacy over any other.

The United States is not now and never has been a Christian country no matter if every citizen belonged to the same church. The United States is not a theocracy!

Theocracy:
1 : government of a state by immediate divine guidance or by officials who are regarded as divinely guided
2 : a state governed by a theocracy

We are not a theocracy we are a secular country. Our leaders are free to believe as they wish but are prohibited from legislating those beliefs on purely theocratic grounds.

It is astounding that this simple fact is not understood. If the point is made and well proven it seems to be ignored by those that maintain that we are a Christian nation.

Wish as you may that it be true it never has been and I pray that it never becomes one IN LAW.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 01:49 PM
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I was not arguing that our GOVERNMENT should BOW DOWN to Christianity.

My entire argument in this thread is simply saying that America's past is rooted in Christianity.

Simple as that?

And I don't see your points as well, my friend. So I guess this argument will not go anywhere. Your extreme personal attack against O'Reilly helps nothing in your cause. All that does it help you seem like you have no facts, so you resort to stabbing at others.

You never really answered my argument. To swear on the Bible is tradition, once again, proving that America is rooted, and should be rooted in, Christianity. The moment we forget our history is the moment that this country collapses.

-wD



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:29 PM
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WeBDeviL

“My entire argument in this thread is simply saying that America's past is rooted in Christianity.”

It all depends on what you mean by “rooted”.

Sure many Americans are Christians and Christians have been in the majority in this country since forever, excluding Native Americans of course.

The distinction remains between a secular and theocratic form of government.

I don’t think anyone who maintains that we are a secular nation also holds that there is not a boatload of Christians in it, however, the fundament in which our government is rooted is not Christianity. Perhaps it would help if you made the distinction between the geographical area that is the United States ( a predominatly Chrsitian area) and the government of the region when you use the word "country" .

As far as I’m concerned asking people to place their hand on the Bible to swear in a court of law is a violation of the 1st Amendment and I rather strongly suspect that it is a practice that will be discontinued for this very reason. How would you feel if you were required to swear on the Koran or Baghavad Gita?

Yes most Americans are Christians and always have been. Nobody is denying that. The topic of this thread is a wonder because Chistrians feel they must “reclaim” a nation they so steadfastly maintain they never lost.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:36 PM
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Thank you all for telling me this nation is not built as a Christian nation; it tells me that the social-reengineering and dumbing down of the society is going along smoothly.

As I have stated whenever this topic has come up in the past, throwing one or two quotes at me proves nothing. I have written pages on this topic, right here on this board, and I have made it crystal clear that this nation was founded upon the faith of Christianity. I'll not do it again, as there are many here who still, in the face of truth and fact, deny history and reality, and as far as the new people who come and go, I'll not rewrite the history class that should be worth 3 credit hours in any good school.

I do have a blog here at ATS (totally empty at this point), and when I have time to sit down and puts quality effort into it, I'll give the class one more time in a way that it'll be easy to find and can be given as a link avery time the social re-engineering system sends another misled mind to tell me up is down.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:44 PM
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TC, I remember when we had those discussions on the forum and you have yet to convince me that the United States is built on one religion (which by the way is split into hundreds of different sects that disagree or even hate each other) and that because I've seen more literature that points to the opposite.

Like I said before. The United States would be no better than Afghanistan during the Taliban reign if it were found and built on one religion only.

And btw... Because there are always new members coming by and asking the same questions. It is at least of some courtesy by you as a supermod to point them to your old threads where you wrote those pages..


[edit on 24-2-2005 by TheBandit795]



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:45 PM
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Ahh, Truths that Transform, on WYLL here in Chicago (1160 AM) every weekday morning at 9:30. I catch him every chance I get, think he's right on, and I support his ministry. He's actually aalso the first person to give me reason to question evolution, as well. Gotta like someone who makes you think and question your beliefs, don't ya?

Thanks for bringing this to my attention, I have a nice, long thread to read through now about a fellah I've quoted or mentioned in several posts here and elsewhere, Dr. D James Kennedy



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:49 PM
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I always wonder as why Jefferson used the name of "creator" rather than Jesus or Christ in his views of religion.

I always feel that our nation was founded under a God, but not under a Christ.



"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291


I will say we may be a "nation of believers" but I will not agree with "we are a nations of Christ believers" that came after.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:49 PM
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Bandit, you still don't understand the difference between Christianity and Islam, and you are still not looking at the history for yourself - or, as best as you can nowadays.

Remember, Bandit, this whole argument that this is not a Christian nation is a new one, appearing for the first real time in the early '60's. Before, there was no confusion, and the nation was nothing like Afghanistan.

Don't worry, I'll get the time in a couple weeks to really put time into it.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:51 PM
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I know it's not like Afghanistan. But the idea behind it.

Btw... I added more to my post above.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 02:54 PM
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Originally posted by Thomas Crowne

Remember, Bandit, this whole argument that this is not a Christian nation is a new one, appearing for the first real time in the early '60's. Before, there was no confusion, and the nation was nothing like Afghanistan.



Then why did I read text quotes of the forefathers of your country in which they claimed the opposite?



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 03:12 PM
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While Religious Rights insist that US is a Christian nation, the constitution does not give any special preferences to Christianity as the only religion to be worship in the US.

I will like anybody to prove me wrong on this one.

The US constitution has not mention of “Christianity or Jesus Christ”,



The Constitution refers to religion only twice in the First Amendment, which bars laws "respecting an establishment of religion or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," and in Article VI, which prohibits "religious tests" for public office. Both of these provisions are evidence that the country was not founded as officially Christian.


Again even Jefferson made sure that the “our creator” was used rather than other way to show preferences.

www.au.org...

In today modern days fundamentalist has become powerful, money wise and with more of his minions infiltrating our government, they are in an agenda and that agenda will put in danger our civil rights.



Sept. 11 launched a surge of patriotism that has increasingly becoming intertwined with religion. A Dec. 10 Chicago Tribune report ("Crusading for a Christian nation") states "Christian conservatives have declared war on civil libertarians for the soul of America."


Occurs this only involve Protestant Evangelicals any other believes of Christianity or other type of religions are excluded from fundamentalist groups.

I believe in the “free exercise of Religion” but not the take over of our nation by fundamentalist.



posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 03:42 PM
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Yet another superbly researched post marg. You are HOT!


...Funny thing. Iwas steeped in Christianity as a child - fundamentalist, Catholic, Lutheran and a bunch of other stuff I never knew the names of - I had about 3000 Bible verses memorized by the time I was 8.

Here's what I remember being the most important things I learned:


1. God is love.

2. Jesus loves the little children, all the children of the world. Red and yellow, black and white, they are precious in his sight.


Now all these people here saying the USA is Christian and godammit won't take any other kinds - I'm wondering what on earth you think Christianity is? Sounds like you're pushing hate to me, not the love that Jesus taught.

...And why don't you want anyone who isn't your kind of Christian in the USA? I honestly just don't get it. Why can't you tolerate difference? Can you explain it, reasonably?



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posted on Feb, 24 2005 @ 04:00 PM
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Originally posted by WeBDeviL
My entire argument in this thread is simply saying that America's past is rooted in Christianity.


Socially, yes, we are a nation of Christians. Governmentally we are a secular nation. Note the difference. The first statement acknowledges that most of our citizens who are religious adhere to some form of Christianty or another. The second, however, is a reminder that just because individuals may follow a Christian tradition, our legal system is not intended to uphold and promote the Christian faith, at least not any more than any other faith found here.



You never really answered my argument. To swear on the Bible is tradition, once again, proving that America is rooted, and should be rooted in, Christianity. The moment we forget our history is the moment that this country collapses.


Not really, no. "Swearing on the Bible" in court an when taking office is a tradition, just as is adding the words "So help me God" to the end. The Judge would not force a Hassidic Jew to swear on the Bible, were he called as a witness in court, nor would a Hindu congressperson have to take an oath on the Bible when first starting his or her new job. Many people choose to do this, but that no more makes it a required and integral part of our government than the fact that many people choose to have coffee in the morning when arriving at work.

Muadib, I'll get to your points tonight at work. Right now I've got a date with my wife, and no offense y'all, but she's cuter than you guys


In the meantime, do you see America as a Christian Nation or a nation of Christians? If the former, what, specifically, is expected of a Christian Nation?



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