Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

a reply to: sapien82

If you want a hard border with rUK then fine.

Dread to think of the effect that will have on the over £50billion of trade Scotland does with us - far, far more than it does with anywhere else.

a reply to: Freeborn

Aye im not for a real hard border at all , borders are daft anyway

but Scotland needs to assert its sovereignty and become independent because westminster doesnt care
about our democratic rights

So how can we get them to listen , what action can the Scottish government take

we are basically being told to sit down and shut up

a reply to: Freeborn

the very nature of our govenment is divisive
we want rid of them and to have our independent state, I get you want us to stay together for your reasons that we are better together
but its clearly not working for Scotland is it.

We are a minority in the UK union , so we just get told what to do by westminster
like you cant have your own country back

well no depression with the march on the 11th , 80,000 people in the pissing rain
if that is any indication that numbers are increasing , it was gale force winds and flood warning
80,000 marched for indy ref 2
marched for 4 hours from Kelvingrove to glasgow green then stayed in the pissing rain to listen to the samba band
me and my partner and my friends all soaked to the bone

nothing depressing about that , full of happy faces and cheer.

It seems as though our democratic rights upset so many in England , including yourself
I wouldnt think about denying you the right to your own freedom
or even say hey man thats not cool your right to democracy isnt good for the UK so please stop.

You are just as much under the boot of westminster as we are
yet none of the English brothers will seek to free England from that shower of #e in westminster because you all still believe in the "great britain"

Scotland seems pretty good right now , I havent heard anyone I know complain about the Scottish government in comparison to the UK government .

the ony pro union rallies I know of are carried out by the orange order in glasgow every other weekend
but you know they are all bigots anyway


there were about 30 union protesters on Union street , but they only came out their pub at the cross when the indy march arrived because they wouldnt brave the wind and rain for 4 hours ona march
they just nip out for a fag and shout abuse at the march from the 4 corners.

Where are all the Pro union marchers ?
where are the people marching to convince Scotland that the Union is good

there are none , because no one wants to march for it other than bigotted rangers fans

Supporting the corrupt Union is like supporting the capitalist system of profit before people and planet

it is anti democracy , anti life

a reply to: Freeborn

Sorry mate for multiple replies , instead of one

but my brain works like that

You are always talking about the corruption of westminster

so why , please tell me why you think its worth saving, when clearly breaking the Union
will force England to have a long hard look at its self and how its governs its people
and would likely force England to create a new "non constutional monarchy" and no house of lords and actually have a democracy not a one designed to create a wealth gap and to consolidate power to the rich

a reply to: sapien82

Aye im not for a real hard border at all , borders are daft anyway

Tell that to the EU, look at their approach to the border between The Republic and Northern Ireland.
They are the one's insisting on a hard border.

Do you think it would be any different if an independent Scotland were to remain in the EU?

….. but Scotland needs to assert its sovereignty and become independent because westminster doesnt care
about our democratic rights

Holyrood and devolved power.....ring any bells?

You have a damn sight more say and control over issues that directly affect you than other parts of the UK, certainly more than I have.

So how can we get them to listen ,....

What EXACTLY are you unhappy about?
What do you want them to listen to?

.....what action can the Scottish government take

Surely the Scottish government should concern itself with governing Scotland.
Independence should be the business of other bodies/organisations......or do you disagree?

we are basically being told to sit down and shut up

So, basically the same as every single one of us who disagrees with government policy?

well no depression with the march on the 11th , 80,000 people in the pissing rain....

Sounds like great fun....but nearly 5.5million people DIDN'T march!

…. if that is any indication that numbers are increasing ,

But NOT according to qualifying criteria as set out by Nicola Sturgeon herself.

Scotland seems pretty good right now , I havent heard anyone I know complain about the Scottish government in comparison to the UK government .

Reading that many would argue that what you are saying is that the current system is working?

So why risk anything? - If it's not broke don't fix it!

As an aside; counting down the hours till pub o'clock....been a dry two and a half days!

a reply to: sapien82

Sorry mate for multiple replies , instead of one

but my brain works like that

No problems mate, I'm amazed my brain works at all at times.

You are always talking about the corruption of westminster

Its rancid, rotten to the core, outdated and no longer fit for purpose.

so why , please tell me why you think its worth saving, when clearly breaking the Union
will force England to have a long hard look at its self and how its governs its people
and would likely force England to create a new "non constutional monarchy" and no house of lords and actually have a democracy not a one designed to create a wealth gap and to consolidate power to the rich

Sorry, I don't follow that reasoning.
Any break up of the Union will only result in the English regions being further marginalised and heightening the sense of alienation felt in places like The North, South West etc.

Don't be fooled by the result of the General Election where masses of people only voted Tory due to the thoroughly unsuitable nature of Corbyn and the lack of representation for traditional core Labour voters and their values.
They will turn on Boris Johnson the minute he fails to deliver!

The traditional elite and the intellectual left elite and the champagne socialists would carve up England and we would be relatively powerless to stop them.
We ALL have a better chance of effecting real and lasting change by standing united and demanding reform and real change.

originally posted by: OtherSideOfTheCoin
And the consequences look severe.

What are these 'severe consequences'? I don't get it. So you have to engage in diplomacy with individual nations rather than 'the group'. Or you tell them all to frack off, and engage in diplomacy with rational nations.

a reply to: Freeborn

It's the UK by leaving the single market & customs union that is creating the necessary for a border.

Not the EU.

a reply to: ScepticScot

Left to our own devices I am absolutely certain that the UK and The Republic of Ireland could quite easily come up with a simple and workable solution that suits both sides.....unfortunately the EU does not want anything to be simple when it comes to Brexit and insists upon complicating things.

I guess the same could be said of Scotland if it ever decides on independence; wouldn't their insistence on leaving a Union - and a far more tying and long standing Union - be creating the necessity for a border, possibly even a hard border?

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

Left to our own devices I am absolutely certain that the UK and The Republic of Ireland could quite easily come up with a simple and workable solution that suits both sides.....unfortunately the EU does not want anything to be simple when it comes to Brexit and insists upon complicating things.

I guess the same could be said of Scotland if it ever decides on independence; wouldn't their insistence on leaving a Union - and a far more tying and long standing Union - be creating the necessity for a border, possibly even a hard border?

No border exits at the moment because of the EU. The likely creation of one is entirely on the UKs decision to leave.

The only way Ireland and UK could sort it out themselves is if Ireland also wanted to leave the SM & CU. They don't because it's a bloody stupid idea.

As I have said in other threats a hard brexit actually weakens the independence case, at least from an economic point of view, as many of the same reasons why leaving the EU is bad for the UK would apply.

a reply to: ScepticScot

No border exits at the moment because of the EU.

There is a border at present, just not a 'hard' border.....same as there are borders between all existing EU nations.

The likely creation of one is entirely on the UKs decision to leave.

No, there is a border because we are two separate 'sovereign' nations.

The only way Ireland and UK could sort it out themselves is if Ireland also wanted to leave the SM & CU. They don't because it's a bloody stupid idea.

If the EU didn't want to play hard ball and make everything as difficult as possible they could easily leave the UK and the Republic to sort out some mutually convenient solution that satisfied both sides.
However, they want to use everything as an opportunity to complicate and derail Brexit and punish the UK for the having the temerity to exercise their Right to Self-Determination.
They want to play the heavy hand in order to discourage all the other constituent nations of the EU from doing the same.
It is petty, it is vindictive, it is punitive and its only aim is to harm the UK and has zero consideration for the well being for the people who it directly affects on both sides of the border.

As I have said in other threats a hard Brexit actually weakens the independence case, at least from an economic point of view, as many of the same reasons why leaving the EU is bad for the UK would apply.

Hard Brexit, Soft Brexit...its all bollocks.

If it wasn't for The Grand Plan of total European Union and the absolute control of Brussels this could be easily sorted; the UK leaves the EU, we have a Free Trade agreement with a guarantee for the Rights of EU nationals living in the UK etc.
Not hard really....everyone happy.

Exactly what would be the problem with that?

What is so wrong with not wanting political union with countries we don't want political union with?

We still have common interests and values and still want to work closely together with our European neighbours....we just don't want to be part of a political union.

It really isn't very hard to understand.

a reply to: Freeborn


We are talking about changes to the border arrangement post brexit. If you want to stick soft or hard in front of border every time then feel free. It's adds nothing to the point being made other than a vaguely Frankie Howard vibe to the whole thing.

You are describing a right-wing tabloid version of the brexit process which has little to do with reality. The EU isn't interested in punishing the UK, but it's responsibility is to the continuing EU members.

It has been the UK that has insisted on leaving the single market and customs union, yet still some how expecting to get all the benefits and none of the responsibility. It has been the UK that has shamefully tried to use the rights if EU citizens as a negotiating position.

The EU is far from perfect but it's behaviour in the negotiations has been far far superior to of the UK. I think your anti EU bias is blinding you to who is shifting the UK people ( yet again) the Torys. Just look at the outright lies Johnson has told about this specific issue.

I had read yesterday on All under one banner

If England wanted to become independent , who would they ask ?
who would they seek permission from to leave the Union ?

Would they ask the other members , Wales , Scotland and northern Ireland for permission
and if we refused would that be the end of their democratic aspirations?

It seems as though they would simply do as they please.

Scotland should be allowed to determine its own future as should any nation in the world without getting a hard time about it from anyone
least of all our brothers and sisters down south.

a reply to: ScepticScot

We are talking about changes to the border arrangement post brexit. If you want to stick soft or hard in front of border every time then feel free. It's adds nothing to the point being made other than a vaguely Frankie Howard vibe to the whole thing.

Funny, but irrelevant.

You are describing a right-wing tabloid version of the brexit process which has little to do with reality.

No I'm not, I'm 'describing' my own personal opinion based on what I've seen and read from multiple sources.
The last thing anyone could label me as is right-wing - personally I hate labels and the obsession with pigeon holing people and ideas - and I am sick to death of anyone who has pro-Brexit tendencies being demonised as some sort of jack-boot wearing xenophobic fascist.

The EU isn't interested in punishing the UK, but it's responsibility is to the continuing EU members.

Its uncompromising and dictatorial approach to negotiations has had the sole purpose of being so punitive as to deter other member nations seeking to leave the EU.

It has been the UK that has insisted on leaving the single market and customs union, yet still some how expecting to get all the benefits and none of the responsibility. It has been the UK that has shamefully tried to use the rights if EU citizens as a negotiating position.

The UK voted for membership of a Free Trade Association.
We DO NOT WANT POLITICAL UNION!
Again, what is so hard to understand and why is it deemed so unreasonable?

I think your anti EU bias...…

And I think your pro-EU bias and anti-UK feelings are clouding your judgement somewhat.

Touche.

….. is blinding you to who is shifting the UK people ( yet again) the Torys. Just look at the outright lies Johnson has told about this specific issue.

He's a politician....please show me one single UK politician who hasn't lied, deceived and manipulated events and information to suit their own personal agenda?
Johnson's lying is far from unique and its not exclusive to pro-Brexit politicians.....far from it.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



He's a politician....please show me one single UK politician who hasn't lied, deceived and manipulated events and information to suit their own personal agenda?
Johnson's lying is far from unique and its not exclusive to pro-Brexit politicians.....far from it.

I wish we'd make a new law where anyone found lying is immediately made to resign and their party faces a penalty by seats lost or something

if you cant call someone a liar openly in the houses of parliament then whats the point in having that rule , if we are meant to believe everyone is honest in the houses but arent , then whats the #ing point.
New legislation should be brought in, if you are found to speak lies , then you lose your job .

I couldnt #ing lie to my colleagues about work , and keep my job , and I work for the government , so why the # is ok for them ?

In what other job can you lie repeatedly and still keep your job , and still keep your salary

a reply to: sapien82

At the last election all sitting MP's, their personal advisors, policy advisors, secretary's and absolutely every single person remotely connected to them should have been barred from standing for political office ever again or having anything whatsoever to do with government.

It has come to the point where we expect, and by our silence condone, our politicians lying as the norm.

As you say, totally unacceptable in any other job or profession.

"Why can't we take over and try to put it right?"

a reply to: Freeborn

mate Im going to just that petition for a new legislation which means any lies or that get penalties

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot

We are talking about changes to the border arrangement post brexit. If you want to stick soft or hard in front of border every time then feel free. It's adds nothing to the point being made other than a vaguely Frankie Howard vibe to the whole thing.

Funny, but irrelevant.

You are describing a right-wing tabloid version of the brexit process which has little to do with reality.

No I'm not, I'm 'describing' my own personal opinion based on what I've seen and read from multiple sources.
The last thing anyone could label me as is right-wing - personally I hate labels and the obsession with pigeon holing people and ideas - and I am sick to death of anyone who has pro-Brexit tendencies being demonised as some sort of jack-boot wearing xenophobic fascist.

The EU isn't interested in punishing the UK, but it's responsibility is to the continuing EU members.

Its uncompromising and dictatorial approach to negotiations has had the sole purpose of being so punitive as to deter other member nations seeking to leave the EU.

It has been the UK that has insisted on leaving the single market and customs union, yet still some how expecting to get all the benefits and none of the responsibility. It has been the UK that has shamefully tried to use the rights if EU citizens as a negotiating position.

The UK voted for membership of a Free Trade Association.
We DO NOT WANT POLITICAL UNION!
Again, what is so hard to understand and why is it deemed so unreasonable?

I think your anti EU bias...…

And I think your pro-EU bias and anti-UK feelings are clouding your judgement somewhat.

Touche.

….. is blinding you to who is shifting the UK people ( yet again) the Torys. Just look at the outright lies Johnson has told about this specific issue.

He's a politician....please show me one single UK politician who hasn't lied, deceived and manipulated events and information to suit their own personal agenda?
Johnson's lying is far from unique and its not exclusive to pro-Brexit politicians.....far from it.

There's no punitive and dictatorial approach from the EU. That is the tabloid myth. The EU recognises that a damaged UK economy is bad for the EU. What they can't do is give the UK everything it wants at the expense of continuing EU members.

The UK can be part of a political union or not as it wants.

It can also be part of the single market without political union, but it has to accept following the EU rules without the same political say.

It can can aso choose complete separation.

What it can't choose is all the single market benefits but still get to complete economic freedom.

Lots of politicians do lie. Few on the scale or brazeness of Johnson. In this case a very clear and specific lie told over and over again about the Border checks.