Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

England voted to leave then England should leave. Why does it have to drag the rest of the UK down its ceasepool.?

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

England voted to leave then England should leave. Why does it have to drag the rest of the UK down its ceasepool.?

If the referendum had only taken place in England then I agree but the referendum was voted on by the whole of the UK so the decision is binding for the whole of the UK.

originally posted by: gortex

originally posted by: purplemer
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

England voted to leave then England should leave. Why does it have to drag the rest of the UK down its ceasepool.?

If the referendum had only taken place in England then I agree but the referendum was voted on by the whole of the UK so the decision is binding for the whole of the UK.

It still amazes me how Scotland ministers moan about how much they want to stay in the EU, but their people voted to leave, like the 17.4 million other people did. I wouldn't vote in another Referendum. They didn't listen to me once so why would they listen again.

a reply to: gortex

If the referendum had only taken place in England then I agree but the referendum was voted on by the whole of the UK so the decision is binding for the whole of the UK.

and who decided that. Nothing to do with Northern Island, Wales or Scotland. it was decided from Westminster.

At the very least nullifed. the indyref in which was based on the premise of Scottish Sovereignty remaining in the EU.

The referendum vote was very badly thought out and does not hold within its core values that idea of democracy. Decisions where made about nations without their constent of these nation.

Personally i belief that people should be allowed political representation. This has not been upheld and evidently is not something you agree with.

a reply to: rhynouk

It still amazes me how Scotland ministers moan about how much they want to stay in the EU, but their people voted to leave,

I think you are mistaken. Scotland voted to stay in Europe.

Search Results Featured snippet from the web In the EU membership referendum held on 23 June 2016, all

So putting to you that a nation voted to stay. Should another nation have the right to dismiss democratic process and force them to leave. Does that sound like democracy to you.

Why do you think 85 percent of Scotland is not SNP.

Have a look at the coat of arms beneath. Note the Unicorn (Scotland) Note the creature is chained. Why do you think this is. What does it represent.

a reply to: purplemer

and who decided that. Nothing to do with Northern Island, Wales or Scotland.

England ... 48% Remain , 52 % Leave.
Scotland ... 62 % Remain , 38 % Leave.
Wales ... 47 % Remain , 52 % Leave.
Northern Ireland ... 58 % Remain , 44 % Leave.

The majority of all nations poled voted to leave the EU so we are leaving , that is Democracy.
Indyref was leave the UK union or remain , Scotland voted remain there were no caveats.

Personally i belief that people should be allowed political representation. This has not been upheld and evidently is not something you agree with.

You have political representation in Holyrood , to a large degree you have autonomy but Sturgeon want's to have her cake and eat it , Scotland cannot survive outside of both the UK and EU but that is what Independence will deliver , even if there were no Brexit Scotland would be vetoed from joining the EU as an independent Nation but Sturgeon chooses to ignore that fact for her own personal reasons.

The grass isn't always greener.

a reply to: gortex

You have political representation in Holyrood , to a large degree you have autonomy but Sturgeon want's to have her cake and eat it , Scotland cannot survive outside of both the UK and EU but that is what

Unless you have the ability to contend me. I thought I established that Scotland did not take that choice. The decision was made by Parliament that we would all leave together. In doing so mutting the democratic voice of a nation.

That should not have been Parliaments choice to make. Nor should it be yours. I see you are a fan of the chained Unicorn and non believer that a nation should be able to live free of a regime should they so choose.

I wonder what would you call someone that in principle stood against the idea of democracy.

a reply to: gortex

We’re four nations, sure. But England is the most populous of the four, which means on UK wide elections and referenda that their votes carry the day. Theoretically, England could’ve voted overwhelmingly for Brexit with the other 3 nations overwhelmingly against, yet we’d still end up leaving because England has the most votes.

That effectively means that the wishes of the people in England are usually satisfied but those of the other 3 nations are usually disregarded. It would be barely tolerable if it were a one off, but it’s increasingly the norm.

This is where reform is necessary if the U.K. is going to survive. You could introduce a rule saying that, for major constitutional changes (a referendum to re-join the EU, for example, or electoral reform) that all 4 nations have to agree. Or 3 out of the 4. Or that you need a higher % victory for a change to pass, 55/45 or 60/40, a kind of qualified majority voting at a UK level.

Or you could reform the House of Lords, dispose of their Lordships and instead have an upper house made up of elected persons from each of the four nations, with votes weighted in such a way that England doesn’t have an automatic majority. Or introduce some kind of parliamentary mechanism after a UK wide bill has passed through both Houses but before the Royal Assent, that the devolved parliaments also consent, or that the first ministers consent.

But that requires reform. And that doesn’t suit the Conservatives, nor I suppose would it suit the population in England who could see their legitimate demands being frustrated by the other 3 nations.

The current situation, though, just isn’t sustainable and over time grievances are going to be nursed, they will flourish and it’ll end up with the U.K. splitting up,
with Scotland potentially leaving.

So. What’s it best to do ?

a reply to: UKTruth

Employment is going up - it's actually higher now than at any time since the ONS reported - 1971. Since the Brexit vote it has gone up by 1.2%.

Ye, It's easy to claim employment has gone up when four people are sharing one job. Zero-hours contracts, You only have to work one hour to be considered in full-time employment these days.

No wonder you voted Brexit and no doubt some other right-wing party at the GE when you can't even work out how they managed to manipulate the figures on unemployment.

a reply to: gortex
Where did you get those figures from???
As a collective on percentages, with your figures 215% voted remain and 186% voted to leave???
But that's not right is it. These figures show a shortfall in Wales of 1%. BBuuutt the Northern Ireland shows an extra 2% that shouldn't exist. Nice to know the Brexiteers are still fudging the figures.

a reply to: crayzeed

Where did you get those figures from???

Here.
www.statista.com...

Sorry I misquoted the England and NI result.

originally posted by: purplemer
Have a look at the coat of arms beneath. Note the Unicorn (Scotland) Note the creature is chained. Why do you think this is. What does it represent.

Considering the unicorn (Scotland) is a mythical creature and only exists in

the imagination 'being chained' only compounds the myth?

So whats your take on it?

a reply to: Soloprotocol


Business's come and go and much as you would like - everything cannot

be blamed on Brexit. Companies going into liquidation, have obviously

been in trouble for some time......

James Dyson?

Four months ago, in October 2018, and after eight years of negotiations, Singapore and the European Union signed not only a Free Trade Agreement (FTA), but also an Investment Protection Agreement plus a framework agreement on closer partnership and cooperation. Come Brexit Day on March 29, should there be a “no deal” scenario, it will be easier to trade with the EU if you're a Singaporean company, rather than a British outfit.

Good business practice?


Barclays bank?

Previously, the bank, which employs 48,700 people in the UK, said it would be expanding its operations in Dublin by 150-200 jobs, making Ireland its base for continuing to trade within the EU.

EXPANDING....NOT MOVING, good business practice?


Most Motor companies are in trouble because of the green agenda - NOT Brexit

(blame Greta ) Regarding diesel/petrol/electric engines.


If you take the trouble to look beyond the headlines, hype and doom mongering

there will be logical business decisions taken in most cases!!


Just as well long standing business's such as Woolworth's....Littlewood's

B.H.S. went under before 2016 or Brexit would have been blamed for them too.

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: UKTruth

Employment is going up - it's actually higher now than at any time since the ONS reported - 1971. Since the Brexit vote it has gone up by 1.2%.

Ye, It's easy to claim employment has gone up when four people are sharing one job. Zero-hours contracts, You only have to work one hour to be considered in full-time employment these days.

No wonder you voted Brexit and no doubt some other right-wing party at the GE when you can't even work out how they managed to manipulate the figures on unemployment.

Ah it's a vast conspiracy where everyone is wrong in order for you to be right... got it.

FULL TIME employment is UP (Our RECORD LOW came when at the time when we fully integrated in the EU)
Wages are UP
Average weekly hrs is UP

originally posted by: UKTruth

originally posted by: Soloprotocol
a reply to: UKTruth

Employment is going up - it's actually higher now than at any time since the ONS reported - 1971. Since the Brexit vote it has gone up by 1.2%.

Ye, It's easy to claim employment has gone up when four people are sharing one job. Zero-hours contracts, You only have to work one hour to be considered in full-time employment these days.

No wonder you voted Brexit and no doubt some other right-wing party at the GE when you can't even work out how they managed to manipulate the figures on unemployment.

Ah it's a vast conspiracy where everyone is wrong in order for you to be right... got it.

FULL TIME employment is UP (Our RECORD LOW came when at the time when we fully integrated in the EU)
Wages are UP
Average weekly hrs is UP

So what you are saying is that full time employment has went up since we 'fully integrated' into the EU?

a reply to: ScepticScot

No, full time employment dropped when we first joined the Common market and sank to an all time low.
We then further integrated and flat lined.
Around 2012 we started to pick up and we've been rising since - which was when David Cameron challenged the EU power grab and promised a referendum if they did not renegotiate.
After the referendum Full Time employment and wages have been going up.

In other words, Brexit has had NO negative impact on FT employment and has actually been a positive (significantly so).
But go ahead and wallow in the news stories of companies leaving the UK.
The rest of us understand we don't need Europe. They've been holding us back.

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: ScepticScot

No, full time employment dropped when we first joined the Common market and sank to an all time low.
We then further integrated and flat lined.
Around 2012 we started to pick up and we've been rising since - which was when David Cameron challenged the EU power grab and promised a referendum if they did not renegotiate.
After the referendum Full Time employment and wages have been going up.

In other words, Brexit has had NO negative impact on FT employment and has actually been a positive (significantly so).
But go ahead and wallow in the news stories of companies leaving the UK.
The rest of us understand we don't need Europe. They've been holding us back.

Utter bollocks.

The UK economy was widely acknowledged as the 'sick man of europe' in the 60s and 70s one if the reasons the UK was so desperate to get into the common market.

The overwhelming majority of economists agree that leaving the EU will have an negative impact on the economy with a no deal brexit having the biggest negative impact.

Wishful thinking does not make good economics and being outside the single market and customs union puts us at a significant disadvantage.

originally posted by: ScepticScot

originally posted by: UKTruth
a reply to: ScepticScot

No, full time employment dropped when we first joined the Common market and sank to an all time low.
We then further integrated and flat lined.
Around 2012 we started to pick up and we've been rising since - which was when David Cameron challenged the EU power grab and promised a referendum if they did not renegotiate.
After the referendum Full Time employment and wages have been going up.

In other words, Brexit has had NO negative impact on FT employment and has actually been a positive (significantly so).
But go ahead and wallow in the news stories of companies leaving the UK.
The rest of us understand we don't need Europe. They've been holding us back.

Utter bollocks.

The UK economy was widely acknowledged as the 'sick man of europe' in the 60s and 70s one if the reasons the UK was so desperate to get into the common market.

The overwhelming majority of economists agree that leaving the EU will have an negative impact on the economy with a no deal brexit having the biggest negative impact.

Wishful thinking does not make good economics and being outside the single market and customs union puts us at a significant disadvantage.

Yet the actual stats on Full time employment show a decline after we joined the Common market and flatline all the way to 2012, with a healthy increase since, including after the Brexit vote in 2016.

But, ok, we'll let you wallow in your emotions at having lost the debate about Brexit. Your arguments lost badly and we're leaving the EU.
You can doom monger all you like. I'm loving the outcome.

a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: UKTruth

Just catching up but got to comment on this;

Employment is going up -........

Yes, 'employment is going up', but it has nothing to do with Brexit and how many of those in 'employment' are on zero hours contracts or minimum wage?

Minimum wage is crap and no-one earning that can keep a roof over their family's head, feed them, keep them warm and all other necessities.
So nearly all families have at least two incomes coming in and are probably claiming one sort of benefit or another.

Gone are the days where one householder could fund everything.

As a result there is quite are considerable, varied and complicated impacts on society as a whole.

So claims of 'employment going up' doesn't really paint the full picture, far from it.

Like I said, wallow all you like, but others will focus on Britain and our competitiveness around the globe, free of EU restrictions.

I agree, many people are wallowing and we absolutely HAVE to try to move forward in a positive manner.
But we have to be brutally honest if we are to achieve that.

Putitng more people in work on appalling wages isn't my idea of moving forward.

The type of employment has been covered
FULL TIME employment is UP.
Average wage is UP.
Average Hrs is UP.
Minimum Wage (hrly rate) is UP.

It's all going in the right direction.

Is it the best it could be - no.
Has it been good because we were in the EU - No.
However, the information was published to counter the doom mongering that we're losing jobs because of Brexit.
We're not.
Some companies will suffer, others will flourish.
Given our freedom to trade globally after we leave the EU, I believe we'll be MORE competitive, not less.
Membership of the EU has not improved things for us.