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Brexit is a Mess, how do we Fix it.

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posted on Sep, 23 2018 @ 07:52 PM
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a reply to: ScepticScot



Why is what people wanted 3 years earlier more important than now?


I didn't want a Tory government in 2017, a lot has changed since then. Can I have a re-vote?

Why is what people wanted 1 year ago more important than now?

ETA


No morbid fear, just realisation that we will be almost certainly financially and socially worse off.


Only an idiot would have thought there wasn't going to be financial difficulties immediately after us leaving the EU.
I know I was aware of the likelihood, so were the vast majority of other people I know who voted to leave.
But short term pain for long term gain - I'm all for it.



edit on 23/9/18 by Freeborn because: (no reason given)




posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 12:59 AM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



Will absolutely support any campaign to give people a democratic choice. Will you oppose that?


You are the one wanting to deny the implementation of a democratic vote.
The majority of British people voted in a free and democratic ballot to leave the EU, you wish to annul that democratic expression of the Right to Self-Determination for the only reason that your vote was in the minority.

On what other occasion has a second vote ever been required.
Never in 1975.
Never in 2014.
Never in any General Election or other ballot or election.

There is absolutely no legal precedence at all - the will of the people HAS to be acted upon.

It really is so simple.



Not arguing for ignoring the democratic vote, arguing that given the time that has lapsed and that we will now actually know what brexit means there is no reason not to have another vote.

You support greater direct democracy yet you would have the most significant piece of legislation in decades pass without a public vote.

We have another General election on average every 3.5 years. We will be almost 3 years since the referendum by the time we leave.

There are only two possible outcomes if another referendum. Leave is on the majority in which case it confirms that it's the settled will of the people and any further opportunity for politicians to procrastinate or deny that has gone. Or remain is in the majority in which case it would be fundamentally undemocratic to leave on the terms being offered.

I think if you were honestly admit that your opposition to a second vote us based entirely on your wish to leave the EU rather than any democratic principle.

A previous referendum had no magic powers that means we must carry on even if the majority no longer wish to. Since we have the opportunity it would be fundamentally undemocratic not to have a second referendum.

edit on 24-9-2018 by ScepticScot because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 02:18 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot
Best get campaigning for it quick then...
TICK TOCK TICK TOCK...
You're running out of time.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 03:39 AM
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a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Prettty easy to resolve. Juat leave. Referendum has been done already. Create new trade deals with other nations

If we voted stay then we would not be having 2nd referendum so it it needs to be mutual and just leave.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 04:10 AM
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What ever happens, the UK is not going to sink, no one will starve overnight, the french will still want to sell the UK its cheese, the Spanish will still want to sell the UK fruit and vegetables, the Germans will still want to sell the UK their cars, airbus france will still need the parts made in the UK, Italy will still want to sell the UK its parmesan, it goes on and on.
People must realise the UK buys more from Europe than Europe buys from the UK, if the Europeans don't want to sell, Okay, more money stays in the UK, or gets spent in the British commonwealth.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 05:37 AM
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originally posted by: pikestaff
What ever happens, the UK is not going to sink, no one will starve overnight, the french will still want to sell the UK its cheese, the Spanish will still want to sell the UK fruit and vegetables, the Germans will still want to sell the UK their cars, airbus france will still need the parts made in the UK, Italy will still want to sell the UK its parmesan, it goes on and on.
People must realise the UK buys more from Europe than Europe buys from the UK, if the Europeans don't want to sell, Okay, more money stays in the UK, or gets spent in the British commonwealth.


It's not about disaster scenarios. It's about the very real scenario that goods will become more expensive and we will export less to the EU than before. This has very real world consequences for people's jobs and standard of living.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 05:40 AM
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originally posted by: lSkrewloosel
a reply to: OtherSideOfTheCoin

Prettty easy to resolve. Juat leave. Referendum has been done already. Create new trade deals with other nations

If we voted stay then we would not be having 2nd referendum so it it needs to be mutual and just leave.


You think if 48% had voted leave the UKIP etc would have just shut up shop. Farage said they would continue to campaign in the event of a close result.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 06:07 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot



Not arguing for ignoring the democratic vote,....


Of course you are; you advocate not implementing the result of the referendum held in June 2016.
That is going against the will of the people.

I see there is a lot of chatter about holding a second referendum but NOT leaving the EU will not be an option.

To be honest I've not really looked into this so I can't really give a reasoned opinion but I will tentatively say that it MAY be an option that appeases everyone.



..... and that we will now actually know what brexit means


But we don't know, its all guesswork.
The doomsayers and purveyors of Project Fear would have us believe that it'll be the end of the world as we know it if we leave the EU.
The most naïve and irrational Brexiters will have us believe that it will be the dawn of a new golden age.

I suspect there may be some tough times, but no tougher than we've known before, and in the long run things will be far better for our children and grandchildren.
But that relies on us working together and working for the reform that this country sorely needs....reform that will be impossible under EU rules.



You support greater direct democracy yet you would have the most significant piece of legislation in decades pass without a public vote.


Yes, included in the reforms I believe this country needs is the introduction of direct democracy.
Obviously there would be criteria that has to be met that would allow a referendum and the results would be binding.
At no point would there be another ballot on the same subject in such a short time after the first.

en.wikipedia.org...



We have another General election on average every 3.5 years.


Rules have changed, fixed term parliaments were introduced in 2015.
I don't think anyone is going to repeat Theresa May's mistake in calling a snap election in 2017....the whole country is suffering as a result.

en.wikipedia.org...



I think if you were honestly admit that your opposition to a second vote us based entirely on your wish to leave the EU rather than any democratic principle.


Not at all and its presumptive of you to suppose so. Your insistence that it is despite me repeatedly explaining quite clearly my reasoning reveals far more about your surprising inability to accept that people have valid viewpoints that are contrary to yours and even a supercilious and arrogant manner....things I never associated with you.



....it would be fundamentally undemocratic not to have a second referendum.


And its not undemocratic refusing to enact the result of the last referendum?
edit on 24/9/18 by Freeborn because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 07:51 AM
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a reply to: Freeborn

No I am advocating that we hold another referendum to determine if that is still the will of the people when we know the terms of leaving, ignoring the current will on the basis of a vote 3 years earlier would fundamentally undemocratic.

Those tough times are real peoples jobs and standard of living. Yes the UK has had tougher times in the past but not when We have an option not to inflict it on ourselves.

Fixed term election act was introduced in 2011. We then had elections in 2015 & 2017. So no times haven't really changed, it's still the same old make it up as you go along UK constitution.

I apologise if i sound arrogant or supercillious but I find utterly incomprehensible that anyone could advocate taking the UK out of the EU if that isn't the majority wish. A small winning margin from 3 years earlier is simply not sufficient justification if we have the possibility of having another vote and there seems no rational reason for not having that second vote. By the reasoning used in this thread even if 100% of the electorate now wanted to stay we should still leave based on sentiment of three years earlier.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 08:17 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot



Or remain is in the majority in which case it would be fundamentally undemocratic to leave on the terms being offered.


In which case the Remainers would say the argument is over and done with and deny Brexit supporters claims for a third and final deciding referendum.....and on it goes ad infinitum.

You see I think its fundamentally undemocratic to ignore the outcome of the referendum held in June 2016.

It seems we'll never agree on this, perhaps its best just to leave it at that for the time being.
It is becoming quite boring and tedious and as you rightly stated earlier it is supposed to be fun contributing to this site and discussing things with people.




posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 08:55 AM
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originally posted by: Freeborn
a reply to: ScepticScot



Or remain is in the majority in which case it would be fundamentally undemocratic to leave on the terms being offered.


In which case the Remainers would say the argument is over and done with and deny Brexit supporters claims for a third and final deciding referendum.....and on it goes ad infinitum.




Which is exactly why I, as a Remainer, wants it over and done with now. We lost. It was a stupid decision to ever put it to the country but its done and we lost. Get on with it.

As an aside, i still think it essential that future referendums are either enshrined in law or simply scrapped, so we don't end up with this fudge again.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 09:26 AM
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a reply to: ScepticScot

Breaking news,

F.I.F.A. delegates voted in 2010 for the 2022 World Cup to be held in Qatar

However, as the vote was taken 8 years ago,there is a growing campaign for the vote to be retaken due to the time lapse. Their spokesman stated " People may have changed their minds "






posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 10:35 AM
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a reply to: Flavian



As an aside, i still think it essential that future referendums are either enshrined in law or simply scrapped, so we don't end up with this fudge again.


Regardless of our respective opinions on EU membership I think this is one thing that we all can agree on.

Don't know if you had a look at the link I posted on Direct Democracy but such a system allows for different types of referendums with in-built safeguards.

en.wikipedia.org...

The party political system is no longer fit for purpose, we need radical and urgent reform of both our electoral and parliamentary system....a topic for another thread I think.

One things for certain; under such a system this whole sorry mess would have been avoided.



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 11:34 AM
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originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: ScepticScot

Breaking news,

F.I.F.A. delegates voted in 2010 for the 2022 World Cup to be held in Qatar

However, as the vote was taken 8 years ago,there is a growing campaign for the vote to be retaken due to the time lapse. Their spokesman stated " People may have changed their minds "





Yep
en.m.wikipedia.org...



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 11:44 AM
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ScepticScot:

So much wrong with your post it's difficult to know where to start.


You start at the beginning, because there is nothing wrong with the post, apart from the typo with the electorate period. You are in denial, utterly so. You don't like a thing, so you want to go home with your ball, and not let anyone else play. By your admission and want, you'd like to change the democratic process until it gives the result only you favour.

No one needs to give any validity (or credence) to any of your questions, because none of your questions change what has already been established as the fairest means to determine a country-wide choice.

No 2nd referendum is needed. The choice is made, but the manner in which it is being carried out is a long drawn out mess, and Britain will get slapped around a bit for its choice. You will get what you want eventually, but not until the wisest in the land have died away.
edit on 24/9/18 by elysiumfire because: (no reason given)



posted on Sep, 24 2018 @ 11:51 AM
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originally posted by: elysiumfire
ScepticScot:

So much wrong with your post it's difficult to know where to start.


You start at the beginning, because there is nothing wrong with the post, apart from the typo with the electorate period. You are in denial, utterly so. You don't like a thing, so you want to go home with your ball, and not let anyone else play. By your admission and want, you'd like to change the democratic process until it gives the result only you favour.

No one needs to give any validity (or credence) to any of your questions, because none of your questions change what has already been established as the fairest means to determine a country-wide choice.

No 2nd referendum is needed. The choice is made, but the manner in which it is being carried out is a long drawn out mess, and Britain will get slapped around a bit for its choice. You will get what you want eventually, but not until the wisest in the land have died away.



By my admission I want to change the democratic process until it gives the result I want? Really where have I said anything like that. Go look, take your time.

Still good you have at least a consistent accuracy level in your posts.



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 02:01 AM
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originally posted by: Soloprotocol

originally posted by: alldaylong
a reply to: ufoorbhunter

The E.U. sell £288 billion of goods to the U.K.

Are you seriously saying the The E.U. are prepared just to ditch that ?


Or you could look at it this way. The UK buys £288 billion worth of much-needed goods from a shop. Just over half the UK forced the shop to close for no other reason than they didn't like the colour of the guy who owned the shop.

The Eu will be quite happy to sell their goods to another 60 million people elsewhere who appreciate it.


Hahahah, oh yea it was ALLLL about skin color.

Another 60million people? WHERE?? Wow it's incredible you have such abysmal understanding of economics and then you think that 60million people are just found up someones rectum magically.

Funny how people who understand bargaining power have done well in their lives, and low education tossers are always scared and follow the lemmings/media.




posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 02:22 AM
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a reply to: 8675309jenny
It's almost pitiful isn't it.
Notice the only folk whinging in this thread are Scottish lol
Unlucky for them though, time is running out...
TICK TOCK TICK TOCK...



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 02:23 AM
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originally posted by: Vector99
Ok, I am very curious as to the what and why BREXIT was initiated. I know there are several threads here on ATS, and I can use the search function. If I do that I'll get every garbage thread that contains the word brexit, and some more that have nothing to do with it.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread that explains brexit, the whats, who's, why's, when's, where's, and even the how's.

still curious
Someone send me some info please!



posted on Sep, 25 2018 @ 03:26 AM
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originally posted by: Vector99

originally posted by: Vector99
Ok, I am very curious as to the what and why BREXIT was initiated. I know there are several threads here on ATS, and I can use the search function. If I do that I'll get every garbage thread that contains the word brexit, and some more that have nothing to do with it.

Can anyone point me in the direction of a thread that explains brexit, the whats, who's, why's, when's, where's, and even the how's.

still curious
Someone send me some info please!



It is very complicated and involved in the very fabric of the UK's existence, choking

the very life out of most of the people. However 'Freeborn' has some very logic and

measured posts on this thread ...... also for information>>>>

en.wikipedia.org...

Basically we joined a 'Trading Union' and then got sucked into a 'club' we

never wanted to join or were even consulted about joining.


Then specifics that you want to know will be answered to give you further

insight.



edit on 25-9-2018 by eletheia because: (no reason given)



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